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The Khamis Brigade Shed Massacre

It does matter, and people do care, but it is quite probably a waste of time.

Do you think you can uncover evidence which would convince a court that particular individuals perpetrated this massacre instead of discovering it as is apparently claimed?

If so then, yes, it absolutely matters.

And a flower to go with it!

I'm less than impressed with courts, but they can be reasonable, especially where grand geo-strategic designs aren't at work. Could it convince God? He already knows the truth, and I think he'd agree I'm closer to it than anyone else. Too bad I'm an atheist in a world defined by judges...

The quality of the evidence is, as always, debatable. Some will never acknowledge it having any value, others, we'll see. What I've presented so far, plus the next entry, just set the stage for what I think might've happened. It's in the last two, analyzing the horde of witnesses, that we see massive inconsistencies, signs of dishonesty, and even of conspiracy that should make one's jaw drop if one isn't still numbed.

I considered cutting right to the last part, but we're almost halfway there on this route, so let's stick with it.
 
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Could it convince God? He already knows the truth, and I think he'd agree I'm closer to it than anyone else. Too bad I'm an atheist in a world defined by judges...
Stundie anyone?
God knows the truth but I dont belive he exists??
Why dont we let God deal with the perpetrators after all he knows where they live.
 
And a flower to go with it!

I'm less than impressed with courts, but they can be reasonable, especially where grand geo-strategic designs aren't at work. Could it convince God? He already knows the truth, and I think he'd agree I'm closer to it than anyone else. Too bad I'm an atheist in a world defined by judges...

The quality of the evidence is, as always, debatable. Some will never acknowledge it having any value, others, we'll see. What I've presented so far, plus the next entry, just set the stage for what I think might've happened. It's in the last two, analyzing the horde of witnesses, that we see massive inconsistencies, signs of dishonesty, and even of conspiracy that should make one's jaw drop if one isn't still numbed.

I considered cutting right to the last part, but we're almost halfway there on this route, so let's stick with it.

What are you trying to do? At first I thought you wanted to pursue the perpetrators and bring them to justice, but it sounds like I'm mistaken.

If you just want to tell a verion of the story where the rebels killed a bunch of people then dressed it up as a massacre by Gaddafi's guards, then you're pushing at an open door.
 
Before I bring these, I'll allow alittle time for initial reactions, off-the-cuff preferred, but a read-up answer is fine too. What rubs you the wrong way about this thesis of mine? What makes you want to say "no way!"?

Dates don't work too well. Misrata brigades weren't that involved in the Tripoli on that date. Mostly the local Tripoli forces and the mountain Berber. Those Misrata forces that were in play would have been front line units which is the wrong profile. Massacres and other human rights abuses tend to be carried out by follow up units. Even when dealing with a groups as unprofessional and Libyan rebels. Front line units tend to be too busy staying alive and dealing with the other side's fighters.
 
What are you trying to do? At first I thought you wanted to pursue the perpetrators and bring them to justice, but it sounds like I'm mistaken.

It's definitely worth a try, and I think the case is good.That was just the cynicism side of it. I'll try and convince anyone, until someone can show me wrong.

If you just want to tell a verion of the story where the rebels killed a bunch of people then dressed it up as a massacre by Gaddafi's guards, then you're pushing at an open door.

Not really, but we may be at cross metaphors. When I think doors and opening them, I see this: The new government, its fighters, the mainstream media, world leaders, human rights groups, and so on have, collectively, piled a bunch of stuff behind the door. Mentally, it will now be hard for most people to think of it as a door that ever could be opened. I can't change the amount of stuff holding it closed as the most proven ever Gaddafi regime massacre. I aim only point out that it's an enormous pile of **** and ideally, it should be moved. And truth matters to me.

Plus it's not the only situation of this sort, but that's another stack of stories waiting to be told.

Sez Me: Perhaps being generous, I'm going with "they lack the critical though and imagination to apply the slightest doubt to what NTC people tell them or to read between the lines, even when they're a mile apart."

Geni: I admit I'm not a big expert on the details of the different fronts. Could be none of us is. We might not have been told just who was really where and when. Point that stands: Misrata fighters of some type took Yarmouk. It's only when. Mid-day Aug 26, or some hours before that Misrata military council e-mail at dawn on thje 24th? Both contained sudden discoveries of Gaddafi victims, 140 or 150, killed with grenades in some prison. Only one such story emerged in the end.
 
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Stundie anyone?
God knows the truth but I dont belive he exists??
Why dont we let God deal with the perpetrators after all he knows where they live.

Hey, knock yourself out. Glad to see you stuck around after all.

That was just a long and weird way of saying "I really think I'm actually correct here." God does know, would know, whatever. Fictional people can do all they want without coulds. In their hypothetical worlds. Don't get hung up on semantics and then get all excited over your perceived cleverness.
 
I'm waiting to see if there's more to this than just your declaring "Hey, I bet the rebels did it themselves and blamed the other guys".

Do you have any actual evidence to show us, or any prospect of finding any? Do you know who the victims were, for example?
 
That was just a long and weird way of saying "I really think I'm actually correct here."

great, so youre right, so what?
Do you expect something to be done about your investgative prowess?
It was a war, people killed people bad people did bad things,get over it.
 
I'm waiting to see if there's more to this than just your declaring "Hey, I bet the rebels did it themselves and blamed the other guys".
Essentially, it remains that. But the evidence on which that belief is based, not to sound gay, but "it gets better."

Do you have any actual evidence to show us, or any prospect of finding any? Do you know who the victims were, for example?

We can't know 100% but that's what I'll get to next.
 
2) Victim Loyalty Clues and Racial Makeup, a) outside the shed

There are two ways we could decide who the victims were. We could listen to the self-described witnesses, or we could look at the physical evidence. Each method suggests a different demographic.

The bodies inside the shed lack the usual clues I look for, mostly clothing and skin color. However, there were bodies left outside the shed - at least 34 - that were not burnt and do have such clues. Most rebel sources even make a connection between the groups. They killed no one, the loyalists did all the murder here,one way or another. That some of these men were clearly soldiers of the base means... they were killed for refusing to kill the main prisoners. Some say these were taken out first and killed one by one. Others of the dead are apparently prisoners shot down as they fled.

22 bodies could possibly be unrelated, but they were dumped just down a dry creek bed behind a mosque, 500 meters from the base's front gate. The sources explaining these are collected here (a bit graphic). As far as I can tell, they are all black males, civilian clothing. Few are bound, but many shot on site. They were seen there only on the 26th, but hadbeen there a bit, it seems. Their bodies were burnt and then removed on the 28th, well after rebels controlled the area.

The other twelve at least were immediately around the shed, gathered here (more graphic). As far as I can tell, nine of them are black men. Two at least wore perhaps a shalwar kamees outfit, or perhaps long pajamas, I'm no expert. One was shot in the eye, camo uniform laid over his un-clothed body, laying on a mattress. Wrists suggest his hands were bound, later cut free. Two more next to him are on mattesses, one with feet tied, all but feet covered, the other shot in the head, covered pretty well. One of these also has a uniform laid next to him, and a pair of army pants hangs on the shed with a small green flag.

One man had been killed in a vacant house next door, just outside the walls, pinned down and face apparently smashed in with something heavy. There was a lot of blood, we only see it from a side angle coated with medical dust. One nearby was killed running down stairs to escape - bleeding all over and eyes gouged out. Both of these, wearing the baggy pajama/kameez (most traditional, civilian dress, but both beefy black men) were claimed as escapees. The one had his eyes gouged out as soldiers shot him in the back climbing a wall to escape the massacre. The other seems to be Hussain, brother of Abdelsalam of Zlitan, who died in the arms of escapee A.I. Bashir. When he and Abdelsalam were later rescued by rebel fighters, they all decided it was best if they "left his body inside the house" they hid in, 20 feet from the compound...

One other of the 12 (light-skinned, civilian clothes) was laid face-down, only his face buried in a pile of dirt. One was missing its face (bone visible) and some leg meat, likely predation. One had a severely burnt face,one bled profusely, soaking through even the thick gauze wrap he's covered with except for his black-skinned feet.

Three bodies (including the last two) are only documented in a series of photos taken about 10am on the 27th, just before the first news team, Sky News, rolled in. They're shown being loaded onto a flatbed and driven away.

I need to re-locate the source for the little bag of toiletries a journalist saw hanging on a nail, I'd guess next to where the mattress victims were. I think they were sleeping there when someone caught them off-guard, I'm guessing the morning of the 24th. Perhaps it was these outside victims in particular, hiding from NATO bombs and rebel attack, that took the 140 to 153?

Okay, so among the site victims we can see the clues of, they're primarily black men of the type Misrata brigades are should be famous for executing on-site. African mercenaries? Naturalized citizen fighters? Miracle segregation by God, letting the black massacre escapees fall, and the light ones live to explain it all to the media?

The 22 black guys behind the mosque were described by Spencer (who also made the connection to the base massacre near by) as "blackened by the summer heat." Perhaps he was confused by the local, Nasser Aweidat, who said one of them was his brother, his car stolen by loyalists to escape in. Roughly all (as far as I've seen) of the rebel witnesses who survived a massacre or lost a family member are light-skinned. (and this case of the shed massacre - as section three will show - is no exception). So this story is likely odd, but we don't have a photo or video to be sure.
 
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2) Victim Loyalty Clues and Racial Makeup, b) outside the shed

Inside the shed, because of the rather intense burning, we can't tell race at all so far as I can see. We can deduce it, from the timeline and peripheral victim clues,or we could credit the eyewitnesses who were there, many with family members they had to leave behind, now amongst the skeletons half the world was stepping over an on.

All this part is a little hardcore. Apologies. If it's starting todawn on anyone yet, it might well cause some queasy sensations. Apologies, then, if it's working.

This part I'm a little late to studying, and don't even have my own count of the bodies yet, but around 50-55 seems right. I just started a post dedicated to the burned victims, with a few leading thoughts only.

In broad terms, I see two main body positions that will shape my analysis. Some victims are pretty neatly along the outer walls and corners, and are generally intact (though some have head injuries and missing limbs). These are the ones that also seem to show the most signs of life, in a couple cases perhaps trying to escape. Some journalists managed to play this up a bit.

I will decisively start my head count at victim #1, northwest corner, just under the only "hole in the wall." The image is rare, caught well only by Euronews, and it's at the link. Won't show it here. Possible beheading, legs frozen in struggle, left arm up in defense posture. Less burnt than most, a good close-up might be very helpful.

To his east, the body that'll have the highest number, 53ish, has a distinct spray on the wall from his skull, pressed against the wall still. Execution, or random shooting into the shed as the escapees describe?

The other major portion, perhaps as little as half the total, are piled across the middle of the floor, grossly broken, ribs burst open and splayed out strangely, skulls massively fractured, laid at odd angles, spines twisting, whole half-bodies missing.

Huh, I guess I do have something to say on this already.

Nothing in the rebel narrative has an explanation for this division into two types of death within that shed. If they were all averaged together, it sort of makes sense. But reality can't just be averaged together with a gaussian blur like that.

Hypothesis: Maybe 20 or so prisoners were killed here,and/or placed here after execution elsewhere in the area. Then, even the pathetic remains of NATO's last strikes and/or their own overzealous firepower, soldier soup that could only create pity for the villains, was gathered. The big chunks anyway of about 30 were trucked in and flopped in the middle of the shed. I'd say August 25.

It was all burnt, under a time that much evidence suggests NTC fighters controlled the area. And then some people started saying things and sobbing which, usually, is hard to dismiss. (next, after a pause, we'll get a bit of comic relief)
 
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Are you aware of the effect fire has on the posture of corpses, particularly the position of the arms, due to muscle contracture?

Thanks, a thought to consider.

Not in detail, no. I'd guess it tend to cause contraction/shrinkage/tightening. You think that explains the arm? It's known to cause heil-Hitler salutes? Maybe, but it's the only one I see here.

I confess a total leap of imagination here though. When I see a missing head, apparently, and an arm frozen up, I see rebels with blades. It happened at the hospital about this same time, apparently.as Francois Mori captured quite nicely in this news photo (graphic, obviously).
 
When I see a missing head, apparently, and an arm frozen up, I see rebels with blades.
And quite possibly so does everyone else, unfortunatly for you no one really cares.
It only seems to matter to you who killed them, they are dead, someone killed them, you cant do anything about it.

You really need to let it go.
 
And quite possibly so does everyone else, unfortunatly for you no one really cares.
It only seems to matter to you who killed them, they are dead, someone killed them, you cant do anything about it.

You really need to let it go.

I wasn't so sure before but the last line tips me off you're not really an extremely callous and socially comatose person. Rather, I think this is just a a tactic for me, to make me give up and shut up in hopelessness. The last thing you ever wanted to hear about Libya was "the good guys won, yay rebel flag, and all is cool!"

Am I right?

Well, it's not cool. Ignore the thread if you don't want to hear any more about that. It's on you, not me, to enforce your happy little ending.
 
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I wasn'tso sure before but the lastline tipsme offyou're not really an extremely callous and socially comatose person.
You would be wrong, I have already said I couldn't care less.
 
You would be wrong, I have already said I couldn't care less.

Well then I'll just clarify this thread's not for you. This would be for people with a concern for matters of truth and justice to where they're willing to squirm a bit if necessary checking that they have the truth part down.

The lack of serious responses beyond prominent displays of extreme boredom is unfortunate, but the clear run I have at getting to the point is an up-side.

I'll be covering the witnesses next, and suggesting conspiracy. Anyone with existing thoughts on them? Did you see a video and find a particular survivor to be extra credible? What kinds of problems exist in general with theories of fake-witness conspiracy? Especially when there are more than 20 of them?
 
{war}
Crap happens
People die
More crap happens
{/war}

If I may use this as an example, 'it's not surprising' is a different response from 'I don't care.'

I'm curious, Alferd, the nature of your lack of surprise. Is it more 'everyone knows the rebels are brutal scum who murder and lie,' or more 'I don't want to hear about this, so I should say it's not surprising/boring/pointless,' or what?

If this sounds just like the rebels to you, I'm curious when you came to decide that they were like that, and how do you feel about it? Because we bombed those slaughter-monkeys into power and enabled their killing-and-lying spree. Your taxes.

And for those who don't care about the morality of slaughters like this and the world believing the perpetrators' lies, when did you stop caring about what happens in Libya? Did you ever care? Or where does your blanket of concern end geographically?
 
3) The Witnesses, a) fire, M.Bashir, the hole in the wall

(a bit different than the organization I set out with, section three is the last, in three parts)

Witnesses to the same real-world incident will recall all kinds of details differently. The mind is a malleable thing, and memory slippery, often deceptive. Plus people can occasionally tell lies, even under oath not to.

That's why we usually prefer physical evidence over eyewitness testimony. But here, we've got to do it the other way around if the rebel fighters are to get off the hook as they have so far.

When witnesses can agree on the basics of an important detail, it means either a real memory, or a well-coordinated cover story. The men who fled the shed all swear to the same basic story, the guilt of the brigade soldiers, their cruelty in general prior to the massacre day, the use of automatic fire and hand grenades, and they agree roughly on the number of prisoners on the fateful day (120-200 given range, most at about 150).

But from there it breaks down.

For example, so far all agree the fire was set sometime after they’d gone, or they would have mentioned it. Even Abdulrahim Ibrahim Bashir, who hid in a nearby house and watched the place for three days (guards about, digging, etc.) somehow he didn’t see when the fire was set. Before the rebels took it is all he was sure of. "The [warehouse] was already burning when the rebels came," he said, "but I didn’t see how it happened. I just saw it when the rebels came; it was already burnt, and black smoke was coming out. I left around sunset yesterday [August 26]."

But then there’s Mohammed Bashir, no relation I know of to the guy he contradicts. For reference, he’s as dark-skinned as the escapees get, among the majority we get to see. He might well have a bit of black African blood in him, but nott he gallons shed by the other escapees who look almost like “Gaddafi’s African mercenaries.” He spoke to the Daily Mirror, with a handy picture there (the older guy on the left).

His account is strange in a few ways. He describes the shed wrong - a "container," stifling hot, men died from the heat, thin metal walls, banging on them. These walls are lined with cinderblocks, make no banging noise, wouldn't allow bullets, and shielded the inside from the sun's heat. And there's decent ventilation all over the leaky place.

Further, Bashir says he was still hiding in the shed, just minutes after the shooting on the evening of the 23rd, when the fire was started.
…something happened, either his gun was jammed or he ran out of ammunition. He walked away to get another gun and I ran to the other side of the container and hid behind an empty gas canister."

“That’s when they poured petrol in and set it alight. They were trying to hide evidence but people were still alive. I could hear them scream."
And smoke was still wafting off the shallow pile of about 50 bodies only, five days after the fire was first set. The Mirror was all alone reporting as fact that people were burned alive there (writer Martin Fricker also managed to count one of the nine surrounding bodies, a record low).

Those screaming people being burned alive apparently weren't able to get out the door. So why didn’t they run through the “hole in the wall?” Mohammed did.
“...still alive. I could hear them scream. My friends and I ran through a hole in the wall and tried to escape across the compound.”
Getting out, easy. Crossing the yard, murderous.
"I know at least three men did not make it and were shot in the back by the Gaddafi soldiers."

Abdulatti Haleem said, as the UK Daily Telegraph related it, "after the firing stopped he and about 30 others ran out through a hole they had made in the hangar wall." Bashir al-Siddeq's version sounds a bit less kinetic. He told the Canadian CBC News "when [the massacring soldiers] went to re-load their guns, he crawled over bodies to a hole in the wall, and in the chaos, escaped." Eighteen others escaped, per what CBC's Susan Ormiston reported, apparently also out of this hole. Both mention people then geing shot as they ran towards a way to escape the compound altogether.

There is a hole in the wall, exactly one rough portal just capable of allowing human passage from that cinderblock box. It's on the building's northwest corner, in the upper portion of the west wall, passing through a window in the outer tin. It seems to have a lower lip approximately six feet off the ground. To get through that, one would have to be normal sized or smaller, pull oneself through somewhat carefully, one at a time, after having climbed up on something.

But two different witnesses describe "running" through this hole. One of these specifies he kept running across the yard after that. Again, Mohammed Bashir said “my friends and I ran through a hole in the wall and tried to escape across the compound."
shedmassacre_hole_exterior.jpg

At least one exterior photograph taken by the Human Rights Watch team (cropped here) shows this breach in the corner. As you can see, it leads straight onto the top edge of the northern outer wall of this mini compound. Could you get from the hole to the wall’s crest? I could. Escape from there was all but done. As the satellite imagery shows (northwest/north shed corner, by a white car), immediately on the other side of that north wall is the open street and across that, all kinds of shelter and perhaps aid, and chances to keep running and hiding farther and farther from the bullets. Climb out onto the wall, swing legs over, plop down and run. Easy.

So why did old Mr. Bashir and his friends decide to plop back down on the yard side of the wall and then run across the controlled compound to some other wall they’d have to climb from scratch? Only to have their eyes shot out while climbing it?

On the other hand, if he's a fake survivor,why did another survivor, Ibrahim Zadan, come by and hug him in remembrance? Zadan's also been seen hugging an unnamed apparent survivor, as well as Bashir al-Siddeq, who's been seen hugging yet another unnamed weeping survivor, and so on... quite a reunion on the 27th and 28th of August. Who organized it?
 
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