UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

[ufology]

Why Ufologists Often Refer To Early Modern Era Cases

It would be a mistake to make the generalization that "Uflogists enjoy presenting cases that are decades old because they know there is little that can be added to what is already known." The reason I find the Early Modern Era case studies to be good examples is because they happened during a time when people in general had become reasonably well educated compared to the generations before, and although we had our own aircraft and rocket technology, UFO reports descibed craft that far exceeded the technology of the time. Plus the USAF was actively engaged in investigating them and we now have access to a fair bit of that information.

Today however, the reports we get are almost always civilian, and for that reason most reports are a rung down where credibility is concerned, not because civilians aren't necessarily capable of discerning the difference between UFOs and aircraft, but because there are serious consequences for military personel who make false reports, whereas civilians can post whatever they want with near impunity. Also, those cases that aren't obvious hoaxes or misperceptions can't be as easily disimissed as secret technology of our own. We've come a long way since the 1950s and 60s. For all we know our own scientists might have developed craft that can mimic some of the performance characteristics classically associated with UFOs.

 

[ufology]

He didn't say he believed that. He said that with no evidence to enable object identification, if you want to speculate in spite of that lack, it's as good as conjecturing witches as it is aliens.

I understand what you and he are saying. I just don't agree that there is no value in the information provided by proven witnesses who say they saw some kind of alien craft, and I've provided reasons why modern day UFO witnesses make more reliable ones than witch hunters from the 1600s. But if you want to believe that witch hunters from the 1600s make as reliable witnesses as modern day aircraft pilots, radar operators, or for that matter even the average schooled citizen, go ahead.

As for the witch video, there is no reason to believe the video isn't anything other than another hoax or low budget movie production. Like I said before, show me bona fide reports from military pilots backed by radar, or a real case where jets have been scrambled to intercept a witch, and I'll start to take the witch comparison seriously.

 

[Krikkiter]

Dodge noted... however.

It would be a mistake to make the generalization that "Uflogists enjoy presenting cases that are decades old because they know there is little that can be added to what is already known."

Who makes or has made that generalisation? In any case I think there's some merit to that point. I'm reasonably certain that that's what some ufologists do.

The reason I find the Early Modern Era case studies to be good examples is because they happened during a time when people in general had become reasonably well educated compared to the generations before, and although we had our own aircraft and rocket technology, UFO reports descibed craft that far exceeded the technology of the time.

There are era's in ufology???

UFO reports described unidentified flying objects. How could they have any knowledge of the technology if they were and still are unidentified?

Plus the USAF was actively engaged in investigating them and we now have access to a fair bit of that information.

And none of it is conclusive evidence that UFO = alien craft or witch or dragon or anything else.

Today however, the reports we get are almost always civilian, and for that reason most reports are a rung down where credibility is concerned, not because civilians aren't necessarily capable of discerning the difference between UFOs and aircraft, but because there are serious consequences for military personel who make false reports, whereas civilians can post whatever they want with near impunity.

What does this say about your own, supposedly corroborated anecdote?

Also, those cases that aren't obvious hoaxes or misperceptions can't be as easily disimissed as secret technology of our own. We've come a long way since the 1950s and 60s. For all we know our own scientists might have developed craft that can mimic some of the performance characteristics classically associated with UFOs.

Those cases that aren't obvious hoaxes or misperceptions can definitely be dismissed as unidentified though can't they?

And for all we know, scientists haven't developed anything other than what we are aware of.

Now, back to witches. That was way more interesting.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

The average witnesses today has no more knowledge about ETs than the witnesses some centuries ago had knowledge about witches. Neither has expierienced the real thing.

 

[23_Tauri]

In response to floggy's post titled "Why Ufologists Often Refer To Early Modern Era Cases":



I'm guessing history wasn't your strong point at school, fol?

The Early Modern Period is that period in history that came straight after the middle ages, but before the modern era, in other words the centuries from circa. 1500 to 1900. I know you're fond of wikipedia, so here is the wiki page on The Early Modern Period, in order to enlighten you further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period

It was the time of the great witch hunts across Europe and - late in the period - in North America also. You are correct in saying that many people saw UFOs during this time. They did, as people have done throughout the ages. And when they did, do you know what many people attributed them to?

Witches.

 

[ufology]

In response to floggy's post titled "Why Ufologists Often Refer To Early Modern Era Cases":



I'm guessing history wasn't your strong point at school, fol?

The Early Modern Period is that period in history that came straight after the middle ages, but before the modern era, in other words the centuries from circa. 1500 to 1900. I know you're fond of wikipedia, so here is the wiki page on The Early Modern Period, in order to enlighten you further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period

It was the time of the great witch hunts across Europe and - late in the period - in North America also. You are correct in saying that many people saw UFOs during this time. They did, as people have done throughout the ages. And when they did, do you know what many people attributed them to?

Witches.

The Modern Era in ufology began during 1947 and is generally held to coincide with the UFO flap of that year, the most famous sightings of which were the Kenneth Arnold sighting of June 24th and the Roswell Incident in early July. The Early Modern Era refers to the first 25 years during which time the words UFO and ufology were coined, jet aviation matured, the space race culminated with the Moon landings, and the first significant investigations into the UFO phenomenon were undertaken by both private and governmental agencies.

 

[Pixel42]

You are correct in saying that many people saw UFOs during this time. They did, as people have done throughout the ages. And when they did, do you know what many people attributed them to?

Witches.

Likewise the experience of sleep paralysis has been attributed to whatever was popular in the culture at the time throughout human history including witches (hence the term hag-ridden). In modern American culture that is of course aliens, so we see accounts of alien abduction which are almost certainly actually cases of sleep paralysis.

 

[Akhenaten]

Paul,

The reliability issue was addressed when I asked for an example where a witch was tracked on radar and pursued by military jets.

How does asking for an example address the reliability issue?

Does asking you for an example of an alien craft being tracked on radar and pursued by military jets also address the issue?

What does it say?

We no longer live in the age of witch trials.

Want to bet?

Ufology requires no superstitious belief in the supernatural.

O rly?

Why don't you share your thoughts on some of the other possibilities with us?

• Unexplained natural phenomena. Examples would be the Earthlights theory or the ball lighting theory.
  
  
• A human effort that is so secret that it is virtually cut off from civilization. This would be something beyond projects like those that that take place at Area 51 or other super-secret installations.
  
  
• Perhaps we share the planet with an unknown cuture or species capable of producing craft that match the description of UFOs.
  
  
• Some people have proposed time travelers from Earth's future. However I don't personally see backwards time travel as possible in any way that could make this theory possible.

You may not like your alternate realities being referred to as a superstitious belief in the supernatural but if it walks like a duck . . .

Radar operators, pilots and people in general are far more educated and capable of discerning.

Discerning between witches and flying saucers?

Got some links to the studies you looked at in arriving at this conclusion?

Compare the education, training and scientific knowledge of an Air Force pilot to anyone in the 1600s ( when most witch trials were going on ).

What specific education, training and scientific knowledge are available to air force pilots to enable them to differentiate between witches and flying saucers?

Even the average high school student knows more about the world, and there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist.

Nobody has proposed that alien craft cannot exist.

So not only is the comparison a strawman argument, it doesn't hold up even as a comparison of witness credibility.

It's not a strawman, despite your refusal to understand what everyone has been telling you and it in no way serves to demonstrate that flying saucers are more reliably reported than witches.

I mean get serious, they're talking about people being persecuted because music, dancing, celebration of holidays such as Christmas and Easter, were absolutely forbidden compared to objects seen in the sky by radar operators, pilots, police, and other people in modern times.

No. "They" are talking about unidentified flying objects.

Strawman much?

There have been and probably still are, scientists and engineers in modern times who have taken them very seriously.

Witches or flying saucers or something else?

You're ranting.

Besides that, you know as well as I do that the witch comparison here isn't being used for any other reason than another tool for mockery, just look back at the illustrations and continued lack of consideration.

 

[John Albert]

I just don't agree that there is no value in the information provided by proven witnesses who say they saw some kind of alien craft

What exactly do you mean by "proven" witnesses? "Proven" how?

What evidence (besides stories) do you have, that those so-called "witnesses" actually witnessed anything at all, let alone an "alien craft"?

And how would they even know an "alien craft" if they saw one, considering no aliens or alien craft have never been actually examined?

The very most that can possibly be "proven" is that the so-called "witnesses" have reported seeing something they were unable to identify. That's it.

We can't prove they weren't mistaken, confused, or even lying.

Even if we accept their testimony as truthful, we simply don't have enough information to conclude whether any of the unidentified objects reported by any witnesses weren't in fact misidentifications of any number of mundane objects or visual phenomena. We have absolutely no means to rule out all nonobjective visual phenomena, misidentification of familiar objects, or personal, subjective bias. But even if we did, we have absolutely no criteria on which to judge what the object might have been.

There is absolutely no evidence to support the identification of an unidentified object as an "alien craft," simply because nobody has ever captured or identified any form of "alien craft" in order to know what appearance or characteristics it may be capable of exhibiting.

The only information anyone could possibly have to go on, in order to make an identification of an "alien craft," would be totally unevidenced popular folklore, and one's own imagination. And it just so happens that totally unevidenced popular folklore and one's own imagination is the exact same kind of information that was commonly used during the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period to make identifications of witches.

Does that help explain the witch analogy to you?

In your predilection to identify UFOs as "alien craft," you're employing the same basic line of reasoning that the magistrates and witch-hunters used to identify witches. You're relying on hearsay, personal authority and folklore, with absolutely no real evidence to back any of it up.

...I've provided reasons why modern day UFO witnesses make more reliable ones than witch hunters from the 1600s.

No, you really haven't. You've cited the same line of reasoning: personal authority, social standing in the society, and special training.

If you're accepting totally unsupported anecdotes as evidence, then witches have been conclusively proven to exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. Thousands of anecdotes of their existence have been recorded throughout the ages. Their extraordinary powers are well-evidenced by many of these anecdotes, including the powers to shape-shift into any form they desire, and even fly in the sky.

But if you want to believe that witch hunters from the 1600s make as reliable witnesses as modern day aircraft pilots, radar operators, or for that matter even the average schooled citizen, go ahead.

I'm not saying they'd make better witnesses for anything in general, but the witch-hunters would certainly make better witnesses for identifying witches than the Air Force pilots would make for identifying alien craft.

If you're pitting the witch-hunters against Air Force pilots in terms of training, there's simply no contest. The witch-hunters were far better trained at identifying witches than Air Force pilots are at identifying alien craft. Witch-hunters were even issued a special training manual (called the Malleus Maleficarum) that explicitly outlined the recognizable qualities and performance characteristics of witches, plus detailed methodology for how to best identify, ensnare, try, and punish them. Air Force pilots, on the other hand, have no such training literature or programs to instruct them on how to identify alien craft.

Witches have also been identified and legally proven to exist in official courts of law, whereas alien craft have not. Countless witches have been caught and examined, but never have any alien craft. Witches have been identified not only by anecdotes, but also by certain identifying physical characteristics spotted on their bodies. Many witches actually confessed to being witches, and some even revealed other members of their own coven among the community. We have all this reliable evidence of witches, but to date not a single alien craft has ever been conclusively identified, let alone caught or examined.

So yeah, you might think the analogy between witches and alien craft is silly, but if you want to talk UFOlogy, there's actually far more evidence to support the FWH than the ETH.

Like I said before, show me bona fide reports from military pilots backed by radar, or a real case where jets have been scrambled to intercept a witch, and I'll start to take the witch comparison seriously.

You have no way of knowing that fighter jets weren't scrambled to intercept a witch. The best you can say for certain is that stories and reports exist of fighter jets being scrambled to intercept unidentified objects. None of those reports say for sure that the objects are alien craft.

And remember: significant anecdotal evidence indicates that witches can change their appearance to whatever form they wish. As the preponderance of anecdotal evidence indicates, those unidentified objects are far more likely to have been witches (for which we have evidence) than any kind of alien craft (for which we have no evidence).

The Modern Era in ufology began during 1947 and is generally held to coincide with the UFO flap of that year, the most famous sightings of which were the Kenneth Arnold sighting of June 24th and the Roswell Incident in early July. The Early Modern Era refers to the first 25 years during which time the words UFO and ufology were coined, jet aviation matured, the space race culminated with the Moon landings, and the first significant investigations into the UFO phenomenon were undertaken by both private and governmental agencies.

I see you're back to redefining terms again.

 

[Akhenaten]

Well if you honestly believe UFOs could be witches, go ahead and keep believing that.

Have you had time to compile a list of all the people in the thread who have professed a belief that UFOs are witches?

I'd like to see it, with relevant quotes.

It just helps illustrate how completely unreasonable some of the so-called skeptics here are.

What's completely unreasonable is your own refusal to elaborate on why a belief in flying saucers is more reasonable than a belief in witches as an explanation for unexplained phenomena.

 

[Akhenaten]

Why Ufologists Often Refer To Early Modern Era Cases

Because it makes them sound all scientifical and stuff.

Fact is, it's just more wankery.

 

[ufology]

Likewise the experience of sleep paralysis has been attributed to whatever was popular in the culture at the time throughout human history including witches (hence the term hag-ridden). In modern American culture that is of course aliens, so we see accounts of alien abduction which are almost certainly actually cases of sleep paralysis.

Alien abduction isn't a topic I'm confident endorsing as fact. But at the same time sleep paralysis doesn't adequately explain all the missing time cases. For example where people aren't claiming they saw aliens consciously at all, only a UFO, or may have been driving a vehicle, or actively engaed in some activity, only to suddenly find several hours have passed without explanation.

I suppose sleep walking, sleep driving and such are possible, but to drive many miles without any recollection at all and without getting in an accident is more than curious. I once interviewed a transport truck driver who experienced missing time several times. He would awake to find he and his rig miles away from the last point he remembered, sometimes day had become night. One of the most interesting facts is that he said these rigs have a sort of black box that records speed and mileage and that the distances and speeds were way off, as if he and his rig were suddenly cut and pasted into another location.

 

[John Albert]

=I once interviewed a transport truck driver who experienced missing time several times. He would awake to find he and his rig miles away from the last point he remembered, sometimes day had become night. One of the most interesting facts is that he said these rigs have a sort of black box that records speed and mileage and that the distances and speeds were way off, as if he and his rig were suddenly cut and pasted into another location.

"He said"...

All you have is his story, without any evidence? Did you not even bother to follow up on this (very easily-checked) claim, or do you always just take crap like that at face value?

 

[Krikkiter]

Alien abduction isn't a topic I'm confident endorsing as fact. But at the same time sleep paralysis doesn't adequately explain all the missing time cases. For example where people aren't claiming they saw aliens consciously at all, only a UFO, or may have been driving a vehicle, or actively engaed in some activity, only to suddenly find several hours have passed without explanation.

I suppose sleep walking, sleep driving and such are possible, but to drive many miles without any recollection at all and without getting in an accident is more than curious. I once interviewed a transport truck driver who experienced missing time several times. He would awake to find he and his rig miles away from the last point he remembered, sometimes day had become night. One of the most interesting facts is that he said these rigs have a sort of black box that records speed and mileage and that the distances and speeds were way off, as if he and his rig were suddenly cut and pasted into another location.

You don't think there's any other explanation for that?

 

[Akhenaten]

I understand what you and he are saying.

This thread alone contains just over a thousand pieces of evidence that this is not true.

I just don't agree that there is no value in the information provided by proven witnesses who say they saw some kind of alien craft, and I've provided reasons why modern day UFO witnesses make more reliable ones than witch hunters from the 1600s.

my bolding

Unfortunately they weren't at all compelling reasons and there's absolutely no reason to treat them as valid.

But if you want to believe that witch hunters from the 1600s make as reliable witnesses as modern day aircraft pilots, radar operators, or for that matter even the average schooled citizen, go ahead.

It's not a belief, it's a conclusion based on the ratio of witness reports to the number of flying saucers identified. (thousands and thousands:zero, in case you'd forgotten)

As for the witch video, there is no reason to believe the video isn't anything other than another hoax or low budget movie production.

And this differs from thousands of flying saucer videos in what way?

Like I said before, show me bona fide reports from military pilots backed by radar, or a real case where jets have been scrambled to intercept a witch, and I'll start to take the witch comparison seriously.

What comparison? You haven't yet provided any bona fide reports from military pilots backed by radar, or a real case where jets have been scrambled to intercept an alien craft with which to make any comparison.

In any case, whether or not you take something seriously is light years from being a measure of reality.

 

[Sideroxylon]

You don't think there's any other explanation for that?

Flying saucers of the gaps.

 

[Stray Cat]

One of the most interesting facts is that he said these rigs have a sort of black box that records speed and mileage and that the distances and speeds were way off, as if he and his rig were suddenly cut and pasted into another location.

Now we're getting somewhere.
I look forward to reading more about how you followed this up and seeing some examples of the data from the "black box" (which I believe is called a tachograph).

 

[Pixel42]

Alien abduction isn't a topic I'm confident endorsing as fact. But at the same time sleep paralysis doesn't adequately explain all the missing time cases.

As usual you completely miss the point which is that the exact same experience which previous generations interpreted as evidence of witches is being interpreted today as evidence of alien visitation when it is actually neither.

 

[Akhenaten]

The Modern Era in ufology began during 1947 and is generally held to coincide with the UFO flap of that year . . .

In the same way that Trekkies 'generally' speak modern Klingon.

 

[Akhenaten]

Alien abduction isn't a topic I'm confident endorsing as fact. But at the same time sleep paralysis doesn't adequately explain all the missing time cases. For example where people aren't claiming they saw aliens consciously at all, only a UFO . . .

my bolding

I didn't think this was possible.