100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

[L.Y.S.]

Compare the number of people killed by communists to the world total. Two-thirds of it was done by communists.

I asked you a question now answer it. Btw I don't see totals for drug cartels, military juntas, facism, or capitalism. What are their totals?

 

[Virus]

The "total" is the people murdered by governments last century.

 

[L.Y.S.]

That's not what I asked. For this to be a fair and objective study there have to be totals for Capitalists, Military Juntas, Drug Cartels, fascists, Civil Revolutions (unrelated to communism), and the corresponding areas where these phenomenon have occurred the most. I don't see any of this information. All I see are two communist countries with ambiguous death tolls that aren't easily discernible, followed by a communist total without other resulting totals. This study also does not distinguish between acts of war, famine, or disease, or any other act which may have been out of the control of communists. It simply lumps them into “deaths”.

If this information is not skewed and biased then I don't know what is.

 

[bikerdruid]

It's not your idealism, it's your naivety. There's a difference.



You're not a murderer. You just believe in an ideology which empowers murderers and has always lead to mass murder when put into practice. There is a difference, to be sure, but you still don't come out smelling like roses.



It's not just the revolutions, bikerdruid. They stay bloody even after they come to power. And their "revolutions" never end.



I'm not sure how any nation can long survive in this world without blood on its hands eventually. That's not the relevant question. That you think it is is yet another sign of your naivety. The relevant question is not whether something is perfect, but whether it's the best we have available. And capitalism in one form or another is, by far, the best we have available. And yes, Europe (for example) is capitalist, though it's not a pure free market.



What, he envisioned them toiling away in backbreaking subsistence agriculture?

As always, you fail to distinguish between what you want and what is possible.



I really don't care what Marx and Engels envisioned. You can excuse their ignorance if you wish. They didn't know how things would turn out. But we do. And yet, even having all the evidence in front of you, you still cling to the delusion that communism is a good thing. That is not idealism, that is blindness.

interesting how you failed to mention the other half of my post.
do you agree that capitaslism also has a lot of blood on its hands?

 

[varwoche]

how many millions are in american prisons on pot related charges?
marijuana prohibition had everything to do with capitalism.
(willian randolph hearst made billions on it.)

Cuba Makes War on Weed
China Defends Executing Drug Offenders

And seeing as China actually executes drug offenders, this post is even on topic. Carry on.

 

[curi0us]

perhaps you never read to the end of marx and engels...the best part.
the state becomes unnecessary.

This is exactly the problem with Marxism/Communism, it gained supporters by making deranged promises akin to religious prophecies. Marx's "stateless communism" requires an impossible rapture like event to occur. Marx was basically the founder of a dangerous cult that has a history of large scale violence against people who legitimately see how irrational it is.

 

[bikerdruid]

This is exactly the problem with Marxism/Communism, it gained supporters by making deranged promises akin to religious prophecies. Marx's "stateless communism" requires an impossible rapture like event to occur. Marx was basically the founder of a dangerous cult that has a history of large scale violence against people who legitimately see how irrational it is.

the 'conspiracy theory' forum is that-a-way>>>>>

 

[Ziggurat]

interesting how you failed to mention the other half of my post.

First off, that's not true, and second, you failed to address any of my post.

do you agree that capitaslism also has a lot of blood on its hands?

"a lot" is meaningless. Most of the deaths you tried to attribute to capitalism are not due to capitalism. And while capitalism may not be bloodless, it's far less bloody than communism. You can whine all you want to about how nobody is perfect, but you keep trying to hide the fact that, by every reasonable metric (including body count), capitalism has proven itself far superior to communism.

 

[Virus]

That's not what I asked. For this to be a fair and objective study there have to be totals for Capitalists, Military Juntas, Drug Cartels, fascists, Civil Revolutions (unrelated to communism), and the corresponding areas where these phenomenon have occurred the most. I don't see any of this information. All I see are two communist countries with ambiguous death tolls that aren't easily discernible, followed by a communist total without other resulting totals. This study also does not distinguish between acts of war, famine, or disease, or any other act which may have been out of the control of communists. It simply lumps them into “deaths”.

If this information is not skewed and biased then I don't know what is.

It's a comparison of the number of people murdered by under communist governments with the total of people murdered by governments.

It's from here. You can check the criteria for yourself.

 

[curi0us]

the 'conspiracy theory' forum is that-a-way>>>>>

You were the one quoting from Marx/Engels as if they were religious prophets. Why do you think it is reasonable on a skeptic forum to argue something is true just because two guys made a claim a hundred and fifty years ago?

The idea that the state would become unnecessary under communism is just obviously not true. Nothing remotely like has ever happened even on small scale and there is no viable mechanism for it to happen under communism. So why do you believe it?

 

[bikerdruid]

You were the one quoting from Marx/Engels as if they were religious prophets.

nonsense.
please show where i quoted from Marx/Engels as if they were religious prophets.

 

[L.Y.S.]

It's a comparison of the number of people murdered by under communist governments with the total of people murdered by governments.

It's from here. You can check the criteria for yourself.

This still does not provide much information on any of the other "contested" governmental deaths. It just provides tons of ambiguous and very one-sided information on communism. Again, I'm not interested in arguing about communism, which is unsurprisingly your main focus. My only concern is where are all the other deaths? How much did the capitalists or fascists do? There is barely any information on these “systems” which leads me to believe that this is a very biased and untrustworthy study.

ETA: I take that back, this is a great study if you’re interested in propaganda and not facts.

 

[Virus]

This still does not provide much information on any of the other "contested" governmental deaths. It just provides tons of ambiguous and very one-sided information on communism. Again, I'm not interested in arguing about communism, which is unsurprisingly your main focus. My only concern is where are all the other deaths? How much did the capitalists or fascists do? There is barely any information on these “systems” which leads me to believe that this is a very biased and untrustworthy study.

ETA: I take that back, this is a great study if you’re interested in propaganda and not facts.

That's your opinion.

 

[L.Y.S.]

That's your opinion.

That's not my opinion, that's the truth. Quote the numbers on your graph that support that coverage is fair and balanced and I'll drop the subject. Show me the specific number of "capitalists" deaths and I'll drop this issue.

 

[Humes fork]

This still does not provide much information on any of the other "contested" governmental deaths. It just provides tons of ambiguous and very one-sided information on communism. Again, I'm not interested in arguing about communism, which is unsurprisingly your main focus. My only concern is where are all the other deaths? How much did the capitalists or fascists do? There is barely any information on these “systems” which leads me to believe that this is a very biased and untrustworthy study.

ETA: I take that back, this is a great study if you’re interested in propaganda and not facts.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Roll your eyes all you want to, i'm still waiting for a graph, chart, or a detailed essay that actually does an apples to apples comparison between deaths. NOT mention and point out ONE group and then not mention the others. There's something completely biased about this information. I'm sorry that you fail to see this.

 

[curi0us]

nonsense.
please show where i quoted from Marx/Engels as if they were religious prophets.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7907513&postcount=343

From which I focused upon your specific statement:

perhaps you never read to the end of marx and engels...the best part.
the state becomes unnecessary.

What you said isn't the best part, it's one of the parts that shows how alarmingly deranged Marx and his supporters were. I am personally very open to the notion that a more ideal society would be much closer to communism in some ways BUT I was horrified when I actually read Marx. Mixed in with valid criticisms of capitalism Marx (and Engels) would say absolutely ridiculous stuff that comes across as religious dogma to me. As an example, even though they say communism will lead to a stateless society there actually is no way that the "state becomes unnecessary" in their system and I challenge you to rationally explain how it could even happen.

 

[curi0us]

Roll your eyes all you want to, i'm still waiting for a graph, chart, or a detailed essay that actually does an apples to apples comparison between deaths. NOT mention and point out ONE group and then not mention the others. There's something completely biased about this information. I'm sorry that you fail to see this.

The information on that website goes well beyond what you are asking for, the author seems to be truly dedicated to studying "democide" in all it's forms. Just check out the tables and figures on this page:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

As per your question about comparisons I found a relevant table that showed 95 million of the 119 million killed by their own government were killed by communist regimes.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WSJ.TAB1.GIF

 

[Grizzly Bear]

thank you for your most sensible response.
this was my point entirely when i began this thread.
i am often railed at in threads, because i am idealistic enough to be a communist.
countless times i have had absurd numbers of deaths due to communism thrown in my face, as if i am a murderer.
we have indeed lived through inhumanly murderous times. certainly communist revolutions have been bloody too. i freely admit that.
what is bizarre is that there are a handful of rabid right wingnuts that think that capitalism, as an economic system, cannot have blood on its hands.

The OP doesn't make such a point at all, and if attempted it failed at doing so miserably. Your OP speaks about the evils of capitalism in the face of people bashing communism in its practiced format.

If you're trying to make a point that those arguing against a particular economic system are blind to the faults of the ones they are biased most to support, I think you've only succeeded in establishing that your thread is nothing short of either a collective irony, or you're establishing your contention with one hell of a gigantic double standard.

You certainly didn't hesitate to cast aside anything you deemed inconvenient.

 

[Virus]

delete.