100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

[theprestige]

there's no government, like no government!
workers of the world, UNITE! etc, etc, etc.

Really? That is your call to arms? "Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera; smiley-face"?

 

[bikerdruid]

Villages, communities and individuals determined to be "counter-revolutionary" should not be rounded up by the millions and tens of millions and herded into gulags and "re-education camps" to be worked to death and/or just plain slaughtered.

great and entirely irrelevant dodge.
do you think that children should be working in factories?

 

[bikerdruid]

Really? That is your call to arms? "Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera; smiley-face"?

it's not a smiley face....it's a wink...

 

[Humes fork]

From each according to ability.
To each according to need.
​

absolutely.
perhaps you never read to the end of marx and engels...the best part.
the state becomes unnecessary.

the state has long since past their 'best by date'.

there's no government, like no government!
workers of the world, UNITE! etc, etc, etc.

When the state is gone, nobody will stop my private army from expelling proponents of stateless societies from the land.

 

[L.Y.S.]

This thread is pointless and is falling into "our side is not as bad as this side" type argument. It gets old after awhile. The 20th century was bloody because of political savagery and incompetence from all political systems. Capitalism like every other system has blood on its hands, but that is not without saying that other political systems have been just as bloody. The past 500 years of human history have been very bloody when compared to the last 5’000, why stop at that 20th century?

 

[L.Y.S.]

When the state is gone, nobody will stop my private army from expelling proponents of stateless societies from the land.

No one ever stopped that before, the point?

 

[Humes fork]

This thread is pointless and is falling into "our side is not as bad as this side" type argument. It gets old after awhile. The 20th century was bloody because of political savagery and incompetence from all political systems. Capitalism like every other system has blood on its hands, but that is not without saying that other political systems have been just as bloody. The past 500 years of human history have been very bloody when compared to the last 5’000, why stop at that 20th century?

Capitalism is not an ideology. It is an economic that is proposed in various forms by plenty of ideologies. Saying capitalism is an ideology is like saying democracy is an ideology.

 

[Humes fork]

No one ever stopped that before, the point?

The state does now.

 

[L.Y.S.]

The state does now.

*Snerks*

OK

Capitalism is not an ideology. It is an economic that is proposed in various forms by plenty of ideologies. Saying capitalism is an ideology is like saying democracy is an ideology.

This is still irrelevant. I'm not here to argue about capitalism, communism, fascism, or any other technicality. I don't give a damn about any political system. And at any rate, political systems which do associate themselves with both the concepts of capitalism and democracy have still committed heinous crimes.

 

[bikerdruid]

This thread is pointless and is falling into "our side is not as bad as this side" type argument. It gets old after awhile. The 20th century was bloody because of political savagery and incompetence from all political systems. Capitalism like every other system has blood on its hands, but that is not without saying that other political systems have been just as bloody. The past 500 years of human history have been very bloody when compared to the last 5’000, why stop at that 20th century?

thank you for your most sensible response.
this was my point entirely when i began this thread.
i am often railed at in threads, because i am idealistic enough to be a communist.
countless times i have had absurd numbers of deaths due to communism thrown in my face, as if i am a murderer.
we have indeed lived through inhumanly murderous times. certainly communist revolutions have been bloody too. i freely admit that.
what is bizarre is that there are a handful of rabid right wingnuts that think that capitalism, as an economic system, cannot have blood on its hands.

all political/economic systems look great in theory. certainly, free market capitalism is a model that shows great promise. however, it is only a theory. current multinational corporate capitalism is a corrupt and inhuman thing. children working in near slave capacities in third world sweat shops is not what adam smith envisioned, any more than the murderous history of the 'communist' regimes in the 20th century were what was envisioned by marx and engels.

 

[Bill Thompson]

what is the alternative to capitalism?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Yes. He says so himself. In other words, what the center-right parties and the Soc Dems implemented in the wake of the crisis in the 90s to save us from such situations in the future he wants to tear down. If his party has its way, economic irresponsibility will be the result, and all of a sudden we'll be the Greece of the north.

Hell freezes over before this guy gets into any government.



So you agree that the propsition was moronic?

I don't know. Honestly. However, wasn't the 90's crisis mostly caused (or aggravated) by pegging the SEK, and the runaway spending a result of that?

I would need to do some in-depth research of that, as it's clearly an important thing. This would of course involve textbooks on economic theory and the arguments (note: not opinions) of various sociological and economical academics, not the writings of right-wing bloggers or op-ed writers.

Maybe something I'll do in 2014, but not right now, after all I have an education to wrap up and a university to get into.

 

[bikerdruid]

what is the alternative to capitalism?

option one: true socialist democracy, which is the truest form of communism.
option two: true anarchist communism, which is the truest form of libertarianism.

 

[portlandatheist]

option one: true socialist democracy, which is the truest form of communism.
option two: true anarchist communism, which is the truest form of libertarianism.

Democracy and communism are oxymorons. Obviously, only the most severe of political extremists would willingly subject themselves to communism, others will risk life and limb to escape it. History shows how well these two concepts work together

 

[bikerdruid]

Democracy and communism are oxymorons. Obviously, only the most severe of political extremists would willingly subject themselves to communism, others will risk life and limb to escape it. History shows how well these two concepts work together

straight over your head, is where my post went....go figger, eh?

 

[L.Y.S.]

what is the alternative to capitalism?

Reality

 

[Virus]

Centrally-planned economies don't work. Regardless of whether the planners are elected or not.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Centrally-planned economies don't work. Regardless of whether the planners are elected or not.

Who was this argument directed towards I might ask?

 

[Ziggurat]

i am often railed at in threads, because i am idealistic enough to be a communist.

It's not your idealism, it's your naivety. There's a difference.

countless times i have had absurd numbers of deaths due to communism thrown in my face, as if i am a murderer.

You're not a murderer. You just believe in an ideology which empowers murderers and has always lead to mass murder when put into practice. There is a difference, to be sure, but you still don't come out smelling like roses.

we have indeed lived through inhumanly murderous times. certainly communist revolutions have been bloody too. i freely admit that.

It's not just the revolutions, bikerdruid. They stay bloody even after they come to power. And their "revolutions" never end.

what is bizarre is that there are a handful of rabid right wingnuts that think that capitalism, as an economic system, cannot have blood on its hands.

I'm not sure how any nation can long survive in this world without blood on its hands eventually. That's not the relevant question. That you think it is is yet another sign of your naivety. The relevant question is not whether something is perfect, but whether it's the best we have available. And capitalism in one form or another is, by far, the best we have available. And yes, Europe (for example) is capitalist, though it's not a pure free market.

children working in near slave capacities in third world sweat shops is not what adam smith envisioned

What, he envisioned them toiling away in backbreaking subsistence agriculture?

As always, you fail to distinguish between what you want and what is possible.

any more than the murderous history of the 'communist' regimes in the 20th century were what was envisioned by marx and engels.

I really don't care what Marx and Engels envisioned. You can excuse their ignorance if you wish. They didn't know how things would turn out. But we do. And yet, even having all the evidence in front of you, you still cling to the delusion that communism is a good thing. That is not idealism, that is blindness.

 

[Virus]

Compare the number of people killed by communists to the world total. Two-thirds of it was done by communists.