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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Acknowledged by whom?

Well, in the past he has mentioned his mother as his main cheering section. He has also created a number of sock puppets elsewhere to sing his praises -- though none here that I am aware of.

But all seriousness aside, I really would like to know who, if anyone, verifiably endorses Patrick's expertise or conclusions. He has mentioned the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal and its curator Eric Jones. But Eric is a friend of mine, and confirms that he doesn't endorse anything. The small contribution that Patrick submitted was a matter of documentary fact, not expertise. Which is to say, anyone who stumbled across that fact and remembered that ALSJ had gotten it wrong could have submitted it without needing to understand anything about the sciences of Apollo.

He says he corresponds with Apollo insiders, but doesn't say which if any of them will endorse his alleged expertise. In fact he doesn't even really name them.

He has no IMDB entry (whereas I do), so I doubt his claims to have consulted on any motion pictures of import.

I mean, really -- if you're going to say you are an "acknowledged" expert, and expect people to respect you for it, then you have to actually name the people who acknowledge you as an expert.

Not that bicycles have anything remotely to do with aerospace engineering...
 
How would he see stars from inside a lit command module? Try looking at stars out of your window at night with the room lights turned on.
 
May well have been fooled, will get back to you with details as I turn them up if/as I do. Nothing else to say for now...

Why not look at the links, there are hundreds of individual samples, all indexed and with micrographs, chemical and phisycal descriptions, refs to the papers published about them and you can even request a sample yourself if you have a good reason.

Go on just take a look, tell me which ones are fake and how they fooled hundreds of scientists for allthese years.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12002.pdf

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12017.pdf

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/compendium.cfm
 
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Whoops!…!!!…. Didn't Charlie just say when he really was in space, even with the sextant, they only saw the brightest stars. Boy that Charlie must be good at picking out stars with essentially NO CONSTELLATION CONTEXT.

Have you ever looked up into the night sky and looked at the constellations? I can only assume from the above comment that the answer is no.


At ebook location 3392 Charlie tells us they were confused upon landing. They estimated they were 200 meters from the intended landing site, but that was "just a guess". HE SAYS THEY ACTUALLY DID NOT KNOW WHERE APOLLO 16 TOUCHED DOWN , WHERE THEY WERE UNTIL THE SECOND EVA.

Can you believe this stuff?

Yes, yes I can, I see nothing in that which points to a hoax.


I literally cannot believe these people have the nerve to treat me with such contempt,.

Well be fair given your plagiarism, evasion, ineptitude and inability to admit a mistake...oh wait you meant the astronauts and not the other posters in this thread, my mistake.
 
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You tell me matt what ol' Charlie said about the scanning scope.......


You claimed you have his book. You tell us. Or are you lying again?


Can you believe this NONSENSE???????!!!!!?????!!!!!?????!!!!!



I could if your premise wasn't hilariously wrong.

So which amateur astronomy club did you contact to verify your theory that stars cannot be identified through a telescope?
 
Of course he did not tell me how in that post, that is ridiculous Loss Leader...

Patrick, don't tell people what I said or did not say. This is your final warning about putting words in my mouth. Stop it!

Back when you first raised this issue I described our test process briefly and the means for validating it. I described how the hypersonic wind tunnels we built for testing re-entry vehicles was used also to test TPS material for Apollo. I described how we validate thermal designs in vacuum chambers. I referred to that several times subsequently.

Go find it. I will not repeat myself. You don't get to ignore my posts and then arrogantly boast that I haven't addressed your claims, or that the people who were paying attention are lying. You really need to get over yourself.

WHAT, Did they, in Jay's terrestrial lab, subject to near absolute zero and then heat up...

Asked and answered. I described the process and apparatus for testing thermal profiles in a vacuum. It's your fault you missed it. And ballistic projectiles never get down to near absolute zero.

The thermal profile is derived from theoretical models, validated by the singular test flight of the instrument package. Once that profile is derived and validated, it can be applied in any number of straightforward ways. I described the most common apparatus, which we have used since the mid-1950s. It isn't hard to build. Heat is heat, regardless of its source.

However, because ablative heat shield designs involve a fluid dynamics component, we use hypersonic wind tunnels to validate the outer shell. Unlike in an atmospheric test, we can train cameras on the test article and see exactly how it behaves. Density and velocity profiles are very straightforward; we've had accurate, precise, and detailed atmospheric models since the 1930s. But we don't need the rest of the warhead behind the heat shield in order to see whether the heat shield works. The heat-shield behavior that interest us in the wind tunnel is whether the boundary layer forms properly. If so, the temperature on the inside of the heat shield will stay within spec. We instrument the rear of the heat shield, instead of putting a warhead there. Why? Because the warhead doesn't tell us whether the heat shield is working. The instruments do.

The wind-tunnel tests validate the outer shell's mechanical and thermal designs. We program the wind tunnels to duplicate the loading we measure with our flown instrument packages. We now know what the mechanical and thermal loads look like from the warhead chassis' perspective. Since the chassis doesn't itself have any aerodynamic loading, we leave the wind tunnel behind and use other methods to apply the appropriate heat loads. And what we're really looking for is a validation of the heat conduction and radiation paths that were determined at the geometrical design phase. You see, engineers don't just build stuff blindly and then test it to see whether it meets the criteria. We compute the heat transfer paths as part of the design. At every point in the warhead chassis structure, the temperature can be determined using straightforward thermodynamics equations. Nevertheless we can apply the right amount of heat to the chassis-shield interfaces and instrument the chassis to make sure we got it right. We can't do that in a flight test, and we can't determine afterward what the thermal profile was.

In terms of thermal design, tritium isn't the critical item. To assume that the "magical" fusion reagent is also necessarily the critical design element across the board is a very layman thing to do. Tritium's fusion properties don't change until you get up to temperatures that would melt the chassis itself. Ditto the fissible material in the trigger. It is a very naive thing to suppose that these rare, important elements are thermally fragile. The implosion charges are thermally sensitive above a certain temperature -- easily tested in the lab. The mechanical arming mechanism has thermal tolerances as well -- again, easily bench-tested. There is simply no way to validate these components in a flight test.

So that's a summary of the thermal validation regimen. I also covered acoustic loading, but I'm not going to go over that again. You'll just have to pay attention.

The inability to imagine how experts in a field solve a problem is a consequence of ignorance of the field -- period. Just because you, Layman Patrick, can't imagine how an aerospace test regime is assembled and validated doesn't mean the rest of the world is similarly uninformed. As a non-expert, you don't get to say, "There's no way they could do this," and have anyone turn his head to listen to you.

Instruments are not the same thing as tritium, nor the same thing as plutonium nor uranium.

Correct; instruments are much, much better for engineering test purposes. They tell us so much more of what we want to know.

And you conceded this when you refined your claim to say that they used instrumented live warheads, not just live warheads themselves. The fact that you had to move those goalposts proves that you recognize that the instruments are the sine qua non. So please stop waffling back and forth; your equivocation grows tedious.

No instrument weapon material can substitute for the weapon material instruments.

FTFY.

Patrick, please try to understand something. You are not an engineer. No one believes that you are an engineer. You don't know what you're talking about, and this is apparent to everyone who has commented here.

Consequently the "requirements" you conjure up out of your layman's simplification of how aerospace test must work, simply do not apply in the real world. Your arguments all boil down to your repeated statement of belief that anything less than all-up testing is insufficiently faithful. Repeating your belief, no matter how elaborately worded, doesn't make it true. You can't tell me what is unfaithful about it, you simply assert the infidelity.

What part of "I did this for a living" is unclear to you? Why do you think blatant arrogance constitutes any valid attempt to make a point? Why, after all these months, have you failed to research what "begging the question" is, why it's a failure in reasoning, and why you should remove it from your theory?
 
Another ditsy astronaut without a brain in his head.

Insults now? Are you a child?

They've asked me to write a chapter in the next edition...

Give me the name and phone number of your editor in a private message. I'm going to check up on this claim.

You guys are lucky that I've got a much bigger fish to fry...

Translation: I got caught quote-mining again, so I'm going to suddenly invent a series of reasons for not needing to follow up on my Duke claims without having to concede my error.

How is this any different from playground bravado? "I could beat him up, but I just don't wanna."

Get out your ... bull detectors.

Guess where the needle of mine is pointing.

Let's take a look at this bogus tale too, and see once again how it was NASA lost a space ship

"Lost a space ship" are your words. Kindly don't try to hold other people responsible for your inaccurate simplifications.
 
Dang, Jay, have you ever considered taking a year off and writing an "Engineering Philosophy for Dummies" book? You explain things so well. I may not be able to grok even the simplified explanations of some of the science, but the backbone methodology shines so clearly through your words.
 
They've asked me to write a chapter in the next edition of the world's most oft referenced aerospace text on SPACE TRAVEL, INSTANT MACULAR DEGENERATION AND EARLY LEWY BODY DEMENTIA.


No, "they" didn't, because you're not a doctor, as has been repeatedly demonstrated. Why do you feel the need to continue claiming that you are?

Also, can you explain why anyone should take anything you say seriously when you continue to repeat this claim that's been shown to be false?
 
The Clavius.com forum meets that description. Much have I learned there. I have only been able to catch Jay in one mistake. Still do not have my "I corrected Jay" T-shirt yet though. :)

Ranb
 
The most hilarious part, however, concerns the weight-shifting.

That's what led me to believe Patrick got all this from NOVA's program on the Wright Brothers. While the Wikipedia article on the Wrights discusses it briefly, the NOVA program goes into greater depth. And the peculiar way they present it with animations would lead someone to believe that roll control and roll stability is accomplished by weight-shifting in the Wrights' design.

Traditionally, the Wrights are credited with something quite different. Wing warping, in fact.

Quite true. The bicycle example is typically used to introduce how the Wrights thought differently than their peers about roll stability, which then raises the topic of wing-warping in order to achieve a roll moment. The Wrights indeed quickly abandoned the idea of weight-shifting as a roll-moment generator.

And even that did not work until they began to integrate....the rudder that Patrick so denigrates in his above.

Right, because wing-warping introduces differential yaw, which couples the roll and yaw control axes.
 
Dang, Jay, have you ever considered taking a year off and writing an "Engineering Philosophy for Dummies" book? You explain things so well.

Thanks! Henry Petroski would just write a better book, though. I did teach college for two or three years, though. That's where I learned to explain things.
 
No, "they" didn't, because you're not a doctor, as has been repeatedly demonstrated. Why do you feel the need to continue claiming that you are?

He's not serious. I tried calling his bluff directly, but it kinda fell flat.

By "instant macular degeneration" he's referring to his belief that the Apollo crews suddenly and suspiciously become "blind" when asked to see stars out the spacecraft windows. He supposes the stars would be very brilliant, and would be so numerous as to preclude proper identification.

By "Lewy body dementia" he's referring to his mean-spirited jab at the flight crews, that they conspicuously "forget" what they're supposed to be lying about.
 
The Clavius.com forum meets that description. Much have I learned there. I have only been able to catch Jay in one mistake. Still do not have my "I corrected Jay" T-shirt yet though. :)

Ranb

Doesn't that entitle you to two?
 
Dang, Jay, have you ever considered taking a year off and writing an "Engineering Philosophy for Dummies" book? You explain things so well. I may not be able to grok even the simplified explanations of some of the science, but the backbone methodology shines so clearly through your words.


I'd love to collect all of his best posts from BAUT, Apollohoax, and here into a book for freshman engineering and technology students. As a "non-traditional" (i.e. older) student plugging along at the rate of two courses a semester in mechanical engineering technology, I can't even begin to say how much I've learned from his writing.
 
I Still Think They Should Have "Sent" What's His Face.....

Not that we really needed any additional evidence, but you've now removed any possible doubt that you aren't really a doctor. From the US National Institutes of Health page on Addison's disease (authoritative and written for the layman):




Even granting for the sake of argument that the additional risk could be justified, how was Shoemaker going to inject himself when he was wearing a vacuum suit?? Fail.




Harrison Schmitt was a civilian, as I explained earlier. Fail.

I Still Think They Should Have "Sent" What's His Face,...... Shoemaker. It's not like the thing is real on any level so it makes the fraud simply more believable to send your best geologist.

The "returned" astronaut dudes don't look too stressed out. I mean, granted, running a fraud will bump your heart rate, BP, render ya' a bit tachypneic, but it is not as though you are actually going to go into some kinda' flull blown Addisonian CRISIS type dealy from acting.

I mean ya' might go full blown Addisonian if ya' really did go to the real moon and stressed trying to land something, or lift a rock, or sight a star that ya' couldn't find when your real life depended on it, but after all, this here wasn't real. Shoemaker coulda' handled the stress of the fraud fine I think.

Mistake that they did not "send" Shoemaker. They should have said, "We vaccinated the guy, so we know he won't get sick even though he's a quart low on cort". I guess they figured they couldn't coopt him, coopt Shoemaker, turn him to the dark side, so they sent the hyperobvious plant Harrisson Schmitt to play pretend geologist instead as he was a fraudster from the fake word "GO !!!!". Ya' know.......
 
You guys are lucky that I've got a much bigger fish to fry, building a new bicycle, otherwise I'd fillet that smelly blind flounder Charlie Duke this week.

I have only been posting here a very short time so maybe I am confused, I thought you were a Doctor?
 
That's what led me to believe Patrick got all this from NOVA's program on the Wright Brothers. While the Wikipedia article on the Wrights discusses it briefly, the NOVA program goes into greater depth. And the peculiar way they present it with animations would lead someone to believe that roll control and roll stability is accomplished by weight-shifting in the Wrights' design.



Quite true. The bicycle example is typically used to introduce how the Wrights thought differently than their peers about roll stability, which then raises the topic of wing-warping in order to achieve a roll moment. The Wrights indeed quickly abandoned the idea of weight-shifting as a roll-moment generator.



Right, because wing-warping introduces differential yaw, which couples the roll and yaw control axes.

Patrick: I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. I'd like to know what you think makes a plane turn and how it relates to bicycles. I'm interested because it would speak to your abilities as a researcher.

For what it's worth, Jay identified some of the elements, but not the "how", for which I'm grateful.
 
Patrick/Fatty… whoever you are.

I took your wall of text from a page and a half ago and transferred it to MS Word. I do this sometimes because it is easier to read, and if I want to save different parts, I can. I was amazed to see that your post took 7 pages, contained 305 lines, and over 3,300 words. From the time you wrote the post, until you edited it the last time, it was over 5 hours.

Why am I amazed? Because you say that you don’t have the time to answer some very basic questions posed to you by the members of this forum. Something that would take less than 5 minutes at most.

On the first page of this overly long thread, you posted a quote from an article about what happened that night at the Lick Observatory, leading us to believe that the Lick staff were mislead on the coordinates of the “lost bird”. Would you mind reading the whole article and inform us as to why the coordinates were copied wrong?

You also brought up the SR71 INS, and stated that it must continuously be updated. If you would do a little research, you would find that the INS aboard the SR71 failed on more than one occasion, and the crew was forced to use the oldest navigation system in aeronautics… dead reckoning. Every time that happened, the crew was able to find their refueling tankers, and find their way home.

I won’t even get into your Borman “poop” fascination theory because it shows how little you know about human metabolism.

You keep stating that the LRRR experiment was/is a military function. Wouldn’t you think that after 40 years, the military would have enough information to program their ICBM’s?

Would you mind answering just one simple question that has been posed to you? Anyone of them will do, lets start with the moon rocks for one.
 
I Still Think They Should Have "Sent" What's His Face,...... Shoemaker. It's not like the thing is real on any level so it makes the fraud simply more believable to send your best geologist.


But since they didn't send Shoemaker, they must have been worried about his health. And if they were worried about his health, the moon landings must have been real. Unless they expected people to think that and suspect the landings were fake. So, they did send Shoemaker to show that they had no concern whatsoever for human life. Thus, they proved that the landings were fake which is exactly the way to throw people off so that you can stage landings that are real. Which is why they didn't send Shoemaker. And NOTHING YOU SAY MAKES SENSE.
 
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