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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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You don't sight stars on a daily basis, only very occasionally is it necessary.


Well, that's a very far cry from your original premise that they had to be aligned constantly.


So how often is "very occasionally"? You are declaring yourself to be an expert in inertial navigation and you have ignored every post I have made correcting your gross errors. I who operated, maintained, groomed, and repaired inertial navigation systems for 20 years.

So I want to know how often is "very occasionally".


But the inertial system platform drifts out of alignment, slowly but surely. One can correct for some of the error in "drift" by packing more than one inertial system.


Each system operated independently. There was no average error. One system did not affect another system. If certain parameters diverged an alarm would notify the operator but no system corrected another.


On your submarine, they carried 3. After a time however, one must realign all of the platforms and the only way in the 60s to do that was by sighting stars.


As I have already mentioned, INS platforms are aligned by inserting fixes into them. LORAN C, bathymetric, etc, all provided better fixes than celestial and they could do it in any weather and 24 hours a day.


Charles Stark Draper's Lab designed the SINS on your boat, and star sighting was required to align its platform.


Citation needed.


Your ship's guidance personal were capable of carrying out the appropriate sightings from anywhere on the ocean.


Yeah. that was my job for 20 years. We didn't use stars.

You are making the mistake of extrapolating Apollo INS alignment to submarine INS alignment. They were not aligned the same way.
 
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Of course he did not tell me how, that is ridiculous Loss Leader......



Of course he did not tell me how in that post, that is ridiculous Loss Leader......

WHAT, Did they, in Jay's terrestrial lab, subject to near absolute zero and then heat up a live, tritium containing warhead(replete with fission component) to the same temperature that would be realized when said warhead would actually fly through space and then the atmosphere under battle conditions?

The big question is what happens to the hot stuff. Instruments are not the same thing as tritium, nor the same thing as plutonium nor uranium. No instrument can substitute for the weapon material.
 
Because the astronauts, who are not in space, would be asked to take a photo of......

You claimed the LM was robotic and that it deployed the LRRR. So why pretend it was lost?

Because the astronauts, who are not in space, would be asked to take a photo of argon laser light coming from MAcDonald Observatory, among other things the truant astronauts could not do given their absence.
 
The most accurate measurements of the Newtonian Gravitational constant were made.....

Thank you for the correction. You were right in that you did quote him and cite him and you included the next paragraph which I falsely accused you of quote-mining.

I can admit when I'm wrong. It's called intellectually honesty. You should try it some time.

None of which discredits the fact that better values were obtained by 1957 so your whole premise we needed Apollo to improve those values is wrong.

The most accurate measurements of the Newtonian Gravitational constant were made with the LRRR. Nothing compared, not even close, NOTHING.
 
May well have been fooled, will get back to you with details as I turn them up....

Are we back on the Rocks?

I have already provided a link to the Repository and a couple of samples. Patrick seems not to have had a look.

it details all the samples and what work ahs been done on them by what scientists over the years with refs for all the Papers published.

I will repeat it here



Here is a description and analysis of one sample, it includes it's mineral make up, chemical composition, micrographs of prepared samples and a list of all the Papers that have been preapred from it.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12002.pdf

Here is the link to the main index of the Sample Compendium. it lists all the samples and has links to a PDF of every one of them similar to the one above.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/compendium.cfm

If you can make a good case they will even send you a sample to work on.

Thousands of scientists from all around thw world from dozens of universities have recieved samples and tested and analyzed them in all kinds of ways.

Were they all fooled?
http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12017.pdf

May well have been fooled, will get back to you with details as I turn them up if/as I do. Nothing else to say for now...
 
And, as you may well be aware, the Wright Brothers were first and foremost, bicycle builders. And it was their knowledge of bicycle mechanics and their technical abilities as bicycle makers, that enabled them to create the first functional airplane.

Which were essentially powered kites. Not the least bit similar to jet aircraft much less rockets.
 
Show me where I said "constantly", or anything close to that.......

Well, that's a very far cry from your original premise that they had to be aligned constantly.


So how often is "very occasionally"? You are declaring yourself to be an expert in inertial navigation and you have ignored every post I have made correcting your gross errors. I who operated, maintained, groomed, and repaired inertial navigation systems for 20 years.

So I want to know how often is "very occasionally".





Each system operated independently. There was no average error. One system did not affect another system. If certain parameters diverged an alarm would notify the operator but they no system corrected another.





As I have already mentioned, INS platforms are aligned by inserting fixes into them. LORAN C, bathymetric, etc, all provided better fixes than celestial and they could do it in any weather and 24 hours a day.





Citation needed.





Yeah. that was my job for 20 years. We didn't use stars.

You are making the mistake of extrapolating Apollo INS alignment to submarine INS alignment. They were not aligned the same way.



Show me where I said "constantly", or anything close to that.......
 
They used stars in the 1960s for all Stark Draper platforms.....

Well, that's a very far cry from your original premise that they had to be aligned constantly.


So how often is "very occasionally"? You are declaring yourself to be an expert in inertial navigation and you have ignored every post I have made correcting your gross errors. I who operated, maintained, groomed, and repaired inertial navigation systems for 20 years.

So I want to know how often is "very occasionally".





Each system operated independently. There was no average error. One system did not affect another system. If certain parameters diverged an alarm would notify the operator but they no system corrected another.





As I have already mentioned, INS platforms are aligned by inserting fixes into them. LORAN C, bathymetric, etc, all provided better fixes than celestial and they could do it in any weather and 24 hours a day.





Citation needed.





Yeah. that was my job for 20 years. We didn't use stars.

You are making the mistake of extrapolating Apollo INS alignment to submarine INS alignment. They were not aligned the same way.

They used stars in the 1960s for all Stark Draper platforms.....
 
I am involved directly Jay with complex engineering projects...

No, Patrick. You're not an engineer. Don't even try.

And it's far too late for you to abandon your "I'm just a layman with common sense" tactic and decide that you really do have the needed expertise.

and my bicycles are as high tech and complex mechanically as any Stark Draper gyro ever was, or could be.

Oh, please.

And the man's name is Charles Draper. Sheesh.
 
Of course he did not tell me how in that post, that is ridiculous Loss Leader......

WHAT, Did they, in Jay's terrestrial lab, subject to near absolute zero and then heat up a live, tritium containing warhead(replete with fission component) to the same temperature that would be realized when said warhead would actually fly through space and then the atmosphere under battle conditions?

The big question is what happens to the hot stuff. Instruments are not the same thing as tritium, nor the same thing as plutonium nor uranium. No instrument can substitute for the weapon material.

Says the man who knows nothing about aerospace engineering but still thinks that his opinion should count for more than those who do.

The most accurate measurements of the Newtonian Gravitational constant were made with the LRRR. Nothing compared, not even close, NOTHING.

Great, now you just have to prove these super accurate readings were actually needed for military purposes and of course that the LRRR wasn't put in place by the Apollo astronauts.

Because the astronauts, who are not in space, would be asked to take a photo of argon laser light coming from MAcDonald Observatory, among other things the truant astronauts could not do given their absence

Another fantasy not remotely supported by anyone who has actual experience or knowledge of the subject. Why do you continually expect your uninformed opinion to override evidence and informed explanations?
 
Because the astronauts, who are not in space, would be asked to take a photo of argon laser light coming from MAcDonald Observatory, among other things the truant astronauts could not do given their absence.


That answer completely sidesteps your claim that a robotic LM deployed a LRRR on the Moon.
 
Because the astronauts, who are not in space, would be asked to take a photo of argon laser light coming from MAcDonald Observatory, among other things the truant astronauts could not do given their absence.

Errr why would they? Taking pictures of nanosecond bursts of light? This is an assertion made to support your own premise and an "If I ran the Zoo" fallacy.

They were there to study the Moon, besides they were pretty much wrapping up the EVA before the LICK observatory had their first try(according to the incorrect TV report).
 
Bicycles are like airplanes , they turn the same way, the same way the SHUTTLE turns, same dynamic. Ask the Wright Brothers. That was one of their big insights, the turning thing.

Wait a second.

I'm a flight instructor. I'm pretty good at it. I really want to hear you explain this, because it will help establish for me your claimed expertise in yet another field.

Please do not tell me to go read about the Wright Brothers. I am far more interested in how you relate the turning of a bicycle to how an airfoil causes an aircraft to turn.

@Robrob, from a performance standpoint, I'll agree with your point. However, for this question that I am asking Patrick, the principles are the same (excluding ballistic effects of aircraft with thrust-to-weight ratios>1).
 
Wait a second.

I'm a flight instructor. I'm pretty good at it. I really want to hear you explain this, because it will help establish for me your claimed expertise in yet another field.

Please do not tell me to go read about the Wright Brothers. I am far more interested in how you relate the turning of a bicycle to how an airfoil causes an aircraft to turn.

@Robrob, from a performance standpoint, I'll agree with your point. However, for this question that I am asking Patrick, the principles are the same (excluding ballistic effects of aircraft with thrust-to-weight ratios>1).

Yes, I'm particularly interested in the effect of up-elevator on a bicycle turn.
 
There is a great deal to this subject Suspilot, glad you asked the question.....

Wait a second.

I'm a flight instructor. I'm pretty good at it. I really want to hear you explain this, because it will help establish for me your claimed expertise in yet another field.

Please do not tell me to go read about the Wright Brothers. I am far more interested in how you relate the turning of a bicycle to how an airfoil causes an aircraft to turn.

@Robrob, from a performance standpoint, I'll agree with your point. However, for this question that I am asking Patrick, the principles are the same (excluding ballistic effects of aircraft with thrust-to-weight ratios>1).

There is a great deal to this subject Suspilot, glad you asked the question.....

As a matter of fact, I do happen to be an acknowledged expert. That said, I shall give you a relatively simple answer, not to be patronizing, but as I said, there is a lot to this.

If you go to U.S. Air Force Museum just outside of Dayton, you'll find one of the Wright Brothers' bicycles. You'll also find one in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. There are 5 known to be in existence. They are actually much more functional and useful and beautiful than a Space Shuttle or an utterly non-functional Apollo Ship, a Wright Bicycle is, but that is another story I shan't go into for the time being.

At the time the first planes were built, almost all experimental builders but the Wright Brothers envisioned planes turning like a ship, with a rudder in the back. This proved to NOT be the correct airplane turning model to work with as discussed just below. The Wright Brothers built AND RODE bikes. This is why and how they knew differently about the turning issue, how to make a plane turn, how to build a plane so that it might turn effectively, without spinning out/flipping out of control. To some very significant degree, the Wrights knew how to build airplanes because as a matter of fact, they were master bicycle builders. A Wright Bicycle could go for $40, $50, depending on what one reads, a ton of money in those days.

The Wright brothers had many great insights taken from their bicycles, the most significant in my mind, expert on the subject that I am, is that they realized PLANES SHOULD TURN AS THEIR BICYCLES DID, TIPPING LEFT OR RIGHT, BANKING/LEANING. This was one of their great insights among others that came from their bikes. And so they built planes, just like their bicycles, planes designed to "lean" in order to turn, and so the planes did indeed lean and TURN!, just like a bicycle. No one had figured that part out before. The Wrights did, thanks to their familiarity with bicycles.

The Wright Brothers "wind tunnel" was a modified bicycle, their so called "bicycle apparatus". Their prop was driven by a chain to a toothed crank. I shan't go on as much as I could and would.

I am not infrequently called upon as a consultant to those making films or writing about bicycles. Usually this involves historical questions, or questions dealing with bicycle mechanism, how it is that bicycles balance and so forth. Actually, despite what one would think, bicycles do not balance by virtue of any gyroscopic effect of their wheels, or if gyroscopic effects are at play, they are a minor, minimal contribution that is so made. It is rather best perhaps to think of them, bicycles, as of all things, stilt walkers, just like stilt walkers in a circus. That is a bicycle.

I'll leave it at that, as I mentioned, Loss Leader's recommendation is a good one. Best to focus on fundamentals of Apollo rather than the bicycle thing as much as I love it.
 
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I am not infrequently called upon as a consultant to those making films or writing about bicycles. Usually this involves historical questions, or questions dealing with bicycle mechanism, how it is that bicycles balance and so forth. Actually, despite what one would think, bicycles do not balance by virtue of any gyroscopic effect of their wheels, or if gyroscopic effects are at play, they are a minor, minimal contribution that is so made. It is rather best perhaps to think of them, bicycles, as of all things, stilt walkers, just like stilt walkers in a circus. That is a bicycle.



Why should anyone believe a single word you write about your professional expertise when you summarily dismiss dozens of others' expertise?
 
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