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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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I am not saying that you are necessarily wrong...

Of course you are.

You're telling people who actually do for a living the things you're talking about, that your frantic Googling is superior to their years of experience. Just how dumb do you think people are?

...your view is quite at odds with everything published about her.

Your one convenience source does not constitute "everything."

My preferred reference for this sort of thing has become George J. Refuto's EVOLUTION OF THE SEA-BASED NUCLEAR MISSILE DETERRENT(Xlibris Corp. 2011).

A self-published book written by an IT project manager who has never served in the Navy and whose education is in public affairs and business. Please for the love of Davy Jones tell the world why you insist on confining yourself to the point-and-clickable convenience sources written by amateurs, when you have actual servicemen trying to correct you.

Most would tell you JimBenArm, including the good Professor Stark Draper himself, that the ONLY way to align the inertial platforms on the subs, the SINS platform and the missile platforms is by way of sighting stars.

No, you don't get to pin your ignorance on Dr. Draper, especially when previously you said that "those guys at MIT" wouldn't know anything about looking at stars. Just because you have no clue what a Kalman filter is doesn't mean the rest of the world is equally benighted.

This reminds me of when you tried to tell everyone that if we asked every President of the U.S. a certain question, they'd all agree with you on the answer. How does it constitute proof if you simply speculate on what other people would say?
 
Not at all, as it turns out I'll have much to say about rocks......

Translation: "I have no idea what I'm talking about, so just out of habit, I'm going to narrow my focus to one specific place and time. Then I'm going to invent requirements for those people that they did not actually have; then I'm going to argue that they did not take the steps I made up. Then, I'm going to say that their refusal to do things they didn't really need to do was willful. Then I'm going to call some of the best geologists in the world frauds."

Patrick - do you have any evidence at all that the initial Lunar Receiving Lab analyzed the samples "against which one might match and authenticate rocks of uncertain/possible lunar/possible non-lunar origin"?

Do you have any idea what scientists have learned regarding lunar rocks? Do you know how many geologists have been involved in testing lunar samples as NASA employees, as contract employees, and as independent scientists working in labs off NASA grounds and all around the word?

My guess is no.

Not at all, as it turns out I'll have much to say about rocks......

My first book is a good one. TO A ROCKY MOON, by geologist Don E. Wilhelms. Will have more to say in a few days after I have finished the book.
 
Citation needed.



And back to google books we go.
Please provide the content on page 206, or 210, or... well you get the picture.



And your point?

If you read on you would also find that Refuto says:

Kinda blows your star malarkey out of the water, as it were.


Nope, wrong again, Patrick. It was done using polar orbital satellites, as you would know if you read a few pages further.


Bit hard to star gaze while submerged, eh, Patrick?


If I were JimBenArm, I would be deeply offended. And rightly so.

Your quoted source demolishes your own claims comprehensively.
I'm not offended. I'm laughing my ass off
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...there are no "standards", other than those of the Lunar Receiving Lab itself that did the initial processing and analyzing against which one might match and authenticate rocks of uncertain/possible lunar/possible non-lunar origin.

No, you're frantically groping.

First, you're trying to say that geologists work primarily comparatively versus analytically. That proves you neither understand the science of geology nor have read any published scientific writings on the Apollo specimens.

Second, the Apollo specimens were compared against the lunar surface material retrieved by the Soviets via the unmanned Luna spacecraft. Your claim that no extra-NASA control exists is factually false.

One the one hand, if the Lunar Receiving Lab proves reputable, no big deal. On the other, if the lab proves suspect, one has an angle to work with as regards demonstrating stone fraudulence.

No. Real science is not a matter of Googling frantically for any and all "dirt" on the LRL and then shrieking "Aha! The jig is up!"

First, you are not a qualified judge of propriety in scientific research. But you have a long and predictable track record of simply passing off your personal opinion as the "rules" by which qualified professionals should operate and by which they should be judged. Do not think you can continue your tired program of consummate question-begging and have anyone care.

Second, any hanky-panky on the part of the LRL would be noticed and reported by the larger scientific community, as has been done many times in the past when impropriety among scientific organizations arises. You want to characterize the geology community as under the thumb of the LRL and its military-NASA hegemons,

Keep in mind, demonstrating stone bogusness means showing that Armstrong and Aldrin did not bring the stones back in the case of Apollo 11 say. It does not mean proving the stones were not born of the moon.

I can see where you're trying to go with this, but take care that the manner in which specimens are collected in geology field work is part of the science. And part of the expert findings regarding the Apollo samples is the supported belief that they were collected by humans after documenting in situ.

Of course what you're doing is obvious. You've already decided that the Apollo samples are bogus -- either collected by some as-yet unproven automatic means, or somehow doctored or created in a secret government lab -- and now you're shopping around for a pseudo-scientific justification for that belief. Your belief did not arise from evidence, but from a desire to believe. Because you don't have evidence yet.
 
Not at all, as it turns out I'll have much to say about rocks......

My first book is a good one. TO A ROCKY MOON, by geologist Don E. Wilhelms. Will have more to say in a few days after I have finished the book.

Why? You've already had all the salient points about the rock explained to you; and they make it clear that they had to come from the moon and could not be meteorites.

In the faint hopes of heading off some of the more boneheaded possibilities:

You can't synthesize zap pits

There's no such thing as 'radiation ovens' that can transform ordinary rocks

Von Braun didn't collect them in Antarctica, lunar meteorites have had their surfaces altered by passage through the atmosphere and impact

The moon rock show structures and chemical compositions that demonstrate they formed under one-sixth gravity and in the absence of water so they didn't come from Sudbury in Canada either

They are from the moon, they couldn't have been returned by robots/rovers, the only viable explanation is the Apollo astronauts brought them back. Any other suggestion will just demonstrate yet more areas of science and technology about which you know nothing.
 
I quoted Herrick word for word AND provided a link......

And yet you never provided a link to it because you knew the rest of the quote would undermine your claim.





And then he goes on to say they have obtained better constants.





Whereas every single study ever conducted about using space for geodesy says they used satellites in low Earth orbit.

I quoted Herrick from the 1957 Aeronautics Symposium WORD FOR WORD matt AND provided a link way back at #134, and have posted a link to this Herrick presentation synopsis in several other places in this thread. I am/was hardly HIDING anything matt, quite the contrary.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7654107#post7654107
 
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Better to say INTENTIONALLY GRIDDED WRONG......

"Misgridding" is something you have made up out of whole cloth. There was no misgridding. Differently gridded maps are NOT misgridded; it is common for maps which are gridded differently to be used together and a correction factor applied to one or the other. There is no one "correct" grid. That you still appear to be unable to grasp this despite it being explained to you several times by many people merely serves to demonstrate once again your ignorance of cartography, your inability to read for comprehension and to learn.

You cannot ignore the substantive points which people like JayUtah make if you wish to retain any shred of credibility. You are on a hiding to nothing here as every one of your 11 so-called "points" have been thoroughly refuted. Were you to have the education and understanding you claim, you would realise this and withdraw the points you have made thus far.

Better to say INTENTIONALLY GRIDDED WRONG......We know this to be the case because the intentional wrong gridding is such that 00 42' 50" north and 23 42' 28" east are at the ellipse center on the fraudulent LAM-2 map. The very coordinates the Apollo 11 Press Kit indicated were targeted landing site coordinates.
 
Another post of mine with a word for word quote AND a direct link.....

And yet you never provided a link to it because you knew the rest of the quote would undermine your claim.





And then he goes on to say they have obtained better constants.





Whereas every single study ever conducted about using space for geodesy says they used satellites in low Earth orbit.

Another post of mine with a fully acknowledged word for word quote from the summary of Herrick's talk AND a direct link to the 1957 Aeronautics Symposium site.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7616209#post7616209
 
How do you know the tritium would be viable as an explosive after reentry?

First, tritium is not an "explosive."

Second, you determine the viability of a warhead by subjecting it on the ground to the same effects it would experience in flight. I asked you some time ago to tell me what unknown forces it would experience in flight that we couldn't duplicate well enough on the ground. Why haven't you told us? It's rather important to your case, if you're going to claim that all-up testing is the only effective method.

A heat shield/barrier must protect the bomb as it reenters. How would you know that the device worked, the protection worked, without actually flying it through the atmosphere?

The same way we know any device will work in its intended environment without subjecting it irretrievably and inscrutably to that environment. We apply our engineering knowledge base to determine qualitatively what the effects will be. We quantify those effects through models derived from the science and verified by a small number of instrument flights. Then we apply the affects to a test article.

A live missile, live tritium, only way to tell.

No, it's the worst way to tell. If the warhead fails to detonate (either because it broke or because you didn't arm it), you may never find it. And the forces it suffered in its uncharacteristic impact with the ocean or the ground may mask anything that you would learn by a forensic disassembly. Further, your enemy may get to the warhead before you do!

If, on the other hand, the warhead detonates, it vaporizes any and all evidence of its performance. Engineers are interested in far more about the performance of a warhead than simply whether it goes boom. Let's say your warhead survived its plunge through the atmosphere and detonates. By what margin did it survive? 10 percent? 0.01 percent? How would you know whether you're operating safely, or on the razor's edge of failure?

You say we should instrument the warhead to tell us. That would work, because it's the numbers from the instruments that we'd be interested in. And in that case you leave out the nuclear material, since you're not going to react it. Do you have any idea how much that stuff costs? How difficult it is to produce?

And so we've come down to what we actually do. We fly instrument packages -- warhead frames packed with instruments instead of tritium. That lets us know that what we're doing on the ground in shake tables, vacuum chambers, and so forth is actually testing the warhead in a meaningful way.

You would have to do it over and over and over again......

No, that's exactly the opposite of the point of aerospace flight test.
 
Are we back on the Rocks?

I have already provided a link to the Repository and a couple of samples. Patrick seems not to have had a look.

it details all the samples and what work ahs been done on them by what scientists over the years with refs for all the Papers published.

I will repeat it here



Here is a description and analysis of one sample, it includes it's mineral make up, chemical composition, micrographs of prepared samples and a list of all the Papers that have been preapred from it.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12002.pdf

Here is the link to the main index of the Sample Compendium. it lists all the samples and has links to a PDF of every one of them similar to the one above.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/compendium.cfm

If you can make a good case they will even send you a sample to work on.

Thousands of scientists from all around thw world from dozens of universities have recieved samples and tested and analyzed them in all kinds of ways.

Were they all fooled?
http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12017.pdf
 
I quoted Herrick from the 1957 Aeronautics Symposium WORD FOR WORD matt AND provided a link way back at #134, and have posted a link to this Herrick presentation synopsis in several other places in this thread. I am/was hardly HIDING anything matt, quite the contrary.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7654107#post7654107


Thank you for the correction. You were right in that you did quote him and cite him and you included the next paragraph which I falsely accused you of quote-mining.

I can admit when I'm wrong. It's called intellectually honesty. You should try it some time.

None of which discredits the fact that better values were obtained by 1957 so your whole premise we needed Apollo to improve those values is wrong.
 
1) The United States claims to be in possession of something like 841.7 lbs of moon rocks. Assuming the stones really are of lunar origin, it would seem quite unlikely that so much selenostuff could have been brought/carried to the earth robotically.

2) At this point in time, my understanding is that all of the rocks passed first through the Lunar Receiving Laboratory. Assuming this to be true, all of the stones were first weighed in there, at that lab, before being passed to experts. Assuming that to be true, there are no "standards", other than those of the Lunar Receiving Lab itself that did the initial processing and analyzing against which one might match and authenticate rocks of uncertain/possible lunar/possible non-lunar origin. The fact that "all experts agree" the stones are "real", whatever "real" might mean, may well be not all that meaningful/noteworthy. One the one hand, if the Lunar Receiving Lab proves reputable, no big deal. On the other, if the lab proves suspect, one has an angle to work with as regards demonstrating stone fraudulence. Keep in mind, demonstrating stone bogusness means showing that Armstrong and Aldrin did not bring the stones back in the case of Apollo 11 say. It does not mean proving the stones were not born of the moon.

Huh? You claim the Lunar Receiving Lab is the only authenticator of the returned Apollo samples because it is the only place at which they were all weighed?

What? Are you trying to say the reason we think those samples come from the Moon is because they weigh 1/6th as much as if they came from Earth?
 
How do you know the tritium would be viable as an explosive after reentry? A heat shield/barrier must protect the bomb as it reenters. How would you know that the device worked, the protection worked, without actually flying it through the atmosphere? A live missile, live tritium, only way to tell. AND! You would have to do it over and over and over again......

You must have a heck of a time cooking your holiday meals if you can't trust a thermometer.
 
1) The United States claims to be in possession of something like 841.7 lbs of moon rocks.
Yup. And your point is what exactly?

Assuming the stones really are of lunar origin, it would seem quite unlikely that so much selenostuff could have been brought/carried to the earth robotically.
Yup. And your point is?

2) At this point in time, my understanding is that all of the rocks passed first through the Lunar Receiving Laboratory.
And this is unexpected because?

Assuming this to be true, all of the stones were first weighed in there, at that lab, before being passed to experts.
And so?

Assuming that to be true, there are no "standards", other than those of the Lunar Receiving Lab itself that did the initial processing and analyzing against which one might match and authenticate rocks of uncertain/possible lunar/possible non-lunar origin.
How do you then respond to those dudes in Finland then?

You know, the ones I linked you to.

The fact that "all experts agree" the stones are "real", whatever "real" might mean, may well be not all that meaningful/noteworthy.

You already admitted to no expertise in this area How do you come by better expertise?

One the one hand, if the Lunar Receiving Lab proves reputable, no big deal.
And they are.

On the other, if the lab proves suspect, one has an angle to work with as regards demonstrating stone fraudulence.
Yet you can provide no evidence of such.

Keep in mind, demonstrating stone bogusness means showing that Armstrong and Aldrin did not bring the stones back in the case of Apollo 11 say. It does not mean proving the stones were not born of the moon.
Provide evidence, then, of your mythical covert sample return missions. You cannot. And that retires you to the realm of unfounded speculation.
 
The Bird is not "Lost" literally......

Then why all the lost bird stuff to hide it from the Russians?

The Bird is not "Lost" literally......

If the coordinates of the "bird" were known in earnest, then the MacDonald Observatory Astronomers would target it with their laser. First they would find the astronauts with a blue-green argon laser and ask, "can you see this". When the astronauts replied "yes", then the ruby red light would be fired and light up the LRRR.

So the Blue-green laser would be capable of locating the astronauts, marking them were they to chose or be asked to take a picture of it.
 
No one is forcing you to read my posts Garrison.....

Not going to get drawn into another of your sidetracks. The substantive issues Patrick, moon rocks, pictures, evidence for your military hardware; those are what I suspect everyone else is waiting on you addressing. So please no more waffle about which books you've read, no more false bonhomie, no more quoting posts and ignoring the questions raised; just the substantive matters or admit you can't do it and stop wasting everyones time.

No one is forcing you to read my posts Garrison.....

If you find them a wast of time, spend it doing something else. Everything I write here I believe is worthwhile, even the satire. It all is meaningful and works toward exposing Apollo's fraudulence. If you view it differently, there are other threads.
 
The Russians were doing the same thing Loss Leader.....

They weren't doing the same thing, they were failing at the same thing. First, the Nedelin catastrophe in 1960 killed many of the scientists and engineers who would have worked on the Soviet moon program. Then the only rocket the Soviets had that could possibly carry the weight of the equipment needed to go to the moon failed in four successive launches. Just before the successful Apollo 11 mission, the Soviets lost an N1 rocket in what many believe to be the largest man-made non-nuclear explosion in history.

So, in 1969 and during the entirety of the American moon program, the Russians absolutely could not get to the moon.

Why, then, wouldn't they reveal to the world that the US landings were fake and/or actually military missions? Why wouldn't they even claim it? Their enemies were putting weapons in space and they had no ability to stop them or to do so themselves. They'd revealed the U-2 flights. They'd been made to look like fools in Cuba.

And if the Soviets thought the US had not put a man on the moon, why would they abandon their efforts to be the first?

The Soviets acknowledged that the Apollo achievements were real when they did not have to. Your theories about how the Soviets acted are not in accord with the facts. Thus, you must be wrong.

The Russians were doing the same thing Loss Leader.....

In the late 1950s, public opinion began to take its toll with regard to the fallout issue and its impact on health. the Russians "took advantage" and declared unilaterally that they were going to stop testing weapons, stop detonating nukes.

So what was THERE space program about? You got it, testing ICBMs/nukes such as they could. It is no wonder and no coincidence NASA started at this time. If you guys, you Ruskies are going to pretend you are goodie two shoes and test weapons behind everyone's back, so will we.

It is all so obvious really.
 
Not sure what you mean about my navigation claims.....

Patrick - in that entire wall of text, you have answered none of the most pressing questions asked of you. Instead, you have merely repeated everything you've previously said, largely by methods of cutting and pasting from other of your posts.

How do you account for the hundreds of pounds of lunar rocks here on earth?

In exactly what manner was the LM modified from the manned craft that was delivered to NASA?

How do you account for the fact that weapons are not tested in the manner you describe and neither submarines nor ballistic missiles navigate the way you claim?

And other such questions.

The first SLBMs were all inertial, at least so they say, so the official story goes. The next generation of SLBMs were stellar inertial. All of the subs in the Apollo era, the ballistic missile subs of the George Washington, Lafayette and Ethan Allen classes were inertial navigated/guided, Draper style, 3 per boat.
 
You've made so many contradictory claims under the umbrella of this point that I hardly know where to start. For someone who claims to be infallible, you seem to change your mind a lot.

Much of it boils down to one outlying bit of documentary evidence claiming that Lick Observatory was accidentally given the true coordinates of the landed LM. You place inappropriate emphasis on this account given long after the fact, and essentially disregard the stronger contemporary document evidence. Manufacturing a catastrophic dilemma is not proof.End Quote

Actually Jay I pointed out long ago that one didn't need the Lick Observatory story at all to work the "Lost Bird" angle. Let's say for a minute there was no LRRR experiment that evening. That doesn't change the fact that the PGNS, AGS and MSFN solutions for the landing site were all close to one another and 1/2 to a mile away from "Tranquility Base" and one another, while at the same time NASA was claiming they did not know where the Eagle was, Reed was looking for the Eagle with his rendezvous radar and the CapCom asks the
$ 64,000 of Armstrong over a day after the pretended EVA.

Who cares about Lick Observatory? I do to a point, but emphasized previously the Lost Bird issue was still an issue, and a BIG ONE.

This thing is FAKE, with or without the Lick story. Look at the Mission Report Table 5-IV and review the Voice Transcript and the $ 64,000 question for yourself, not to mention Reed's book chapter. I can prove "Lost Bird" is true with or without the Lick story, and as a matter of fact Jay, it gets EVEN BETTER. You really should do a bit of research on this for yourself outside of the mainstream Apollo materials. It is quite revealing.
 
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