100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

[TubbaBlubba]

Just as we say "The Nazis killed 20 million people." We say "The Communists killed a hundred million people." Which happens to be the world record for mass extermination.

But "The Communists" include a multitude of countries, with different policies, and different factors. The Nazis were a single party.

It is perfectly legitimate to say "The Kampuchea government killed a third of the country", "Stalin's Communist party killed 20 million", or "The actions of the Chinese Communist Party resulted in the deaths of over 50 million people".

Saying "The Communists" did it is unspecific enough to be entirely unhelpful.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

It's pure murder of civilians by Communists.

This is a vast oversimplification. Many of those deaths (e.g. the bulk of China's) were not exactly the result of mass executions, but rather extremely misguided (and often callous) policies during rapid industrialization.

This is another example of shooting for meaningless points, instead of having historical discussions that can help us understand what happened, and how to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Virus]

But "The Communists" include a multitude of countries, with different policies, and different factors.

That were all mass-murderers.

 

[bikerdruid]

That were all mass-murderers.

seems to me that in chile, it was pinochet that was the mass murderer and allende was the murdered communist leader.

 

[Roboramma]

It is a good point that we shouldn't lump all communists as somehow being the same people. How is one responsible for the deeds of another?

The argument, of course, is that communism is responsible: that the ideology inevitably leads to (or, at least in these real cases was the cause of) mass murder.

Is there truth in it? Certainly the ideology was used by those in power to both attain that power in the first place and to justify the actions that they undertook to cement it (including mass murder). In that case, should communism be blamed, or simply the desire for power? Was it, perhaps, the lack of democracy, rather than the presence of communism, that led to these horrendous deaths?

Those are all reasonable questions. Nevertheless, the logic that leads to "communism is responsible for 100 million deaths" or whatever the figure is, is very different from the logic presented in the OP for capitalism's death tool. Those deaths are much further removed from capitalism (if they are linked at all) than the deaths attributed to communism are from communism.
At the very least, for instance, communist governments were responsible for the deaths attributed to communism. The vast majority of the deaths attributed to capitalism can't be said to be directly committed by capitalist governments.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

That were all mass-murderers.

Last time I checked, none of the communist parties in Sweden were mass murderers.

Is there truth in it? Certainly the ideology was used by those in power to both attain that power in the first place and to justify the actions that they undertook to cement it (including mass murder). In that case, should communism be blamed, or simply the desire for power? Was it, perhaps, the lack of democracy, rather than the presence of communism, that led to these horrendous deaths?

Exactly, this is what I think is important. Marxist ideology is friendly to authoritarianism, and authoritarianism oft leads to atrocities. No way around it. But it's possible to be authoritarian without being Marxist, which is why I think we ought to study these countries on a case-by-case basis.

Those are all reasonable questions. Nevertheless, the logic that leads to "communism is responsible for 100 million deaths" or whatever the figure is, is very different from the logic presented in the OP for capitalism's death tool. Those deaths are much further removed from capitalism (if they are linked at all) than the deaths attributed to communism are from communism.

Well, yes, no argument from me there. The figure is a tad ridiculously derived.

At the very least, for instance, communist governments were responsible for the deaths attributed to communism. The vast majority of the deaths attributed to capitalism can't be said to be directly committed by capitalist governments.

It depends on exactly how you define a capitalist government. Does it just have to have a capitalist economy, or does capitalism have to be a main part of its ideology? Certainly, Nazi Germany was to some extent capitalist.

But again, it's not really a very interesting question exactly what socio-economic ideology tyrannic mass-murdering despots subscribed to. What's interesting, in my view, is how they did it, and what factors in their countries allowed them to do it.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Last time I checked, none of the communist parties in Sweden were mass murderers.

Has the Swedish commies ever taken a majority of seats in the parliament and formed the government?

The Ku Klux Klan in Alabama has never built a camp with gas chamber either.

 

[Robrob]

Just as we say "The Nazis killed 20 million people." We say "The Communists killed a hundred million people." Which happens to be the world record for mass extermination.

Germany was one country and your accounting covers about a decade. OTOH, your moving of the goal posts to accommodate anything and everything "Commie" involves dozens of countries and probably half a century.

That's quite an accounting error.

The people who carried out the genocides, purges and terror were Communists.

Once more, please feel free to list the religions, societies, cultures, political systems, etc... that have not had evil done in their name?

 

[Corsair 115]

excellent point, and a fine 'diversion' back to thread topic.
it is so hard to carry on a civil discussion when distracted by nonsense.

there have been countries that have been oppressive to their own people.
there have been countries that wage wars in foreign lands for reasons that are dubious at best.
the latter seems to be largely the dominion of capitalist nations, with the usa at the forefront.

I suggest taking a closer look. The now defunct Soviet Union had plenty of tentacles in other countries and influenced what went on in them.

In any case I focused on governments while you seem more preoccupied with economic systems. I will repeat that I think the former is far more important than the latter.

 

[Stellafane]

wow...
perhaps it's a language issue.

Nah, it's an intelligence mismatch issue -- Pardalis is smart.

 

[bikerdruid]

The Ku Klux Klan in Alabama has never built a camp with gas chamber either.

they were too busy lynching black folks.
wow, you seem to lack discernment.

 

[bikerdruid]

Nah, it's an intelligence mismatch issue -- Pardalis is smart.

you obviously have not been paying attention to the thread.

 

[Stellafane]

Given that there are close to 7 billion people on the planet, that's really not that many. Come on capitalists, we can do better!!!

Yeah, just think of all the people who didn't even get a chance to live, just because women refuse to have unprotected sex with any guy who asks. Thus feminism is responsible for the prevention of a trillion potentially beautiful lives!! It's the same as a trillion murders -- how's that for an elephant in the room argument?!?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

they were too busy lynching black folks.
wow, you seem to lack discernment.

So we're in agreement then that the KKK is genocidal, yet has not been able to form a government and exercise control over the organs of state (police, military, etc...) that would allow them to carry out their genocidal intentions?

 

[Stellafane]

you obviously have not been paying attention to the thread.

You came back with that?? Aw geez, off the top of my head I could have come back with a dozen snappier retorts, and I'm no Pardalis!

 

[Virus]

Nothing touches a nerve more than pointing out that Communists murdered a hundred million people.

 

[bikerdruid]

So we're in agreement then that the KKK is genocidal, yet has not been able to form a government and exercise control over the organs of state (police, military, etc...) that would allow them to carry out their genocidal intentions?

dude, i am proud to say that you and i agree on absolutely nothing.

 

[Stellafane]

Nothing touches a nerve more than pointing out that Communists murdered a hundred million people.

I dunno...pointing out that communism was such a failure that even the Russians and Chinese gave up on it certainly can't make the old unreconstructed lefties feel too good.

 

[bikerdruid]

I dunno...pointing out that communism was such a failure that even the Russians and Chinese gave up on it certainly can't make the old unreconstructed lefties feel too good.

yes, had they stuck with marx's ideas, and not revised them, the story would have been very different.

 

[lionking]

yes, had they stuck with marx's ideas, and not revised them, the story would have been very different.

True enough. They would have starved.