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Debunking Noah, and I need some help

David Swidler said:
I want to elaborate on this. You might want to suggest she consider what the story is trying to tell her as opposed to whether it happened the way the text tells it. The historicity of Genesis narrative was never the point. More recent believers were simply never taught that.
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Than why bother with it at all? The story, beyond being blatantly impossible, has no legitimate value.
 
Mudcat said:
Than why bother with it at all? The story, beyond being blatantly impossible, has no legitimate value.
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In your eyes, perhaps, but those aren't the eye she's using. The point of the story isn't whether it's possible. It's myth - and I don't mean myth in the "just a fantastical story" sense, but in the sense that it's intentionally metaphorical. We moderns tend to get as literal as - or more than - fundies when it comes to ancient texts, when the ancients themselves had no problem seeing the stories as mythical and true at the same time.

The language of Genesis in general is profoundly mythical. This is not a story about an actual, historical guy who behaves better than everyone else and gets rewarded by being forced to hole up with animals (not to mention no one to talk to but his own family) for months and months (though that would explain why he went and got soused as soon as he could afterwards); it's a continuation of the story of the evolution of human individual and societal sensibilities that we all experience. How does a person react to surviving a loss or trauma? How does that contrast with other similar episodes, such as Lot surviving Sodom? Should Noah have tried to sway the people around him to shape up? What does the answer mean for you and me as individuals? For a society? What message underlies the narrative element that has the deluge result from interpersonal crimes rather than cardinal sins such as idolatry?

The insistence on seeing the story as historical is a distraction from its purpose at best, and otherwise detracts from what it's getting at. Likewise the earlier quibbles in this thread over the amount of food and whatnot. The author(s) wasn't/weren't writing an apocalyptic survival manual, but an exploration of human emotional (and spiritual) development. So of course it has value. How much value the reader derives from it depends greatly on the attitude one takes in studying it, and how deeply Noah's circumstances resonate with him or her. That varies greatly from individual to individual, and I would suggest to your mother that she focus primarily on the internal themes rather than the superficial narrative. It'll be a healthier result for all involved.
 
You can’t debunk a story that can be propped-up with divine intervention (aka magic).
 
David Swidler said:
In your eyes, perhaps, but those aren't the eye she's using. The point of the story isn't whether it's possible. It's myth - and I don't mean myth in the "just a fantastical story" sense, but in the sense that it's intentionally metaphorical. We moderns tend to get as literal as - or more than - fundies when it comes to ancient texts, when the ancients themselves had no problem seeing the stories as mythical and true at the same time.

The language of Genesis in general is profoundly mythical. This is not a story about an actual, historical guy who behaves better than everyone else and gets rewarded by being forced to hole up with animals (not to mention no one to talk to but his own family) for months and months (though that would explain why he went and got soused as soon as he could afterwards); it's a continuation of the story of the evolution of human individual and societal sensibilities that we all experience. How does a person react to surviving a loss or trauma? How does that contrast with other similar episodes, such as Lot surviving Sodom? Should Noah have tried to sway the people around him to shape up? What does the answer mean for you and me as individuals? For a society? What message underlies the narrative element that has the deluge result from interpersonal crimes rather than cardinal sins such as idolatry?

The insistence on seeing the story as historical is a distraction from its purpose at best, and otherwise detracts from what it's getting at. Likewise the earlier quibbles in this thread over the amount of food and whatnot. The author(s) wasn't/weren't writing an apocalyptic survival manual, but an exploration of human emotional (and spiritual) development. So of course it has value. How much value the reader derives from it depends greatly on the attitude one takes in studying it, and how deeply Noah's circumstances resonate with him or her. That varies greatly from individual to individual, and I would suggest to your mother that she focus primarily on the internal themes rather than the superficial narrative. It'll be a healthier result for all involved.
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I assume you haven't heard of Maimonides feelings towards it then ...
 
Can't say I'm familiar with Ibn Ezra so I am not sure how literal he takes the Tanakh, though Maimonides and Guide for the Perplexed leave little room for allegory and demand it be literal truth, up till the Messiah brings forth the coming of the next age.
 
David Swidler said:
In your eyes, perhaps, but those aren't the eye she's using. The point of the story isn't whether it's possible. It's myth - and I don't mean myth in the "just a fantastical story" sense, but in the sense that it's intentionally metaphorical. We moderns tend to get as literal as - or more than - fundies when it comes to ancient texts, when the ancients themselves had no problem seeing the stories as mythical and true at the same time.

The language of Genesis in general is profoundly mythical. This is not a story about an actual, historical guy who behaves better than everyone else and gets rewarded by being forced to hole up with animals (not to mention no one to talk to but his own family) for months and months (though that would explain why he went and got soused as soon as he could afterwards); it's a continuation of the story of the evolution of human individual and societal sensibilities that we all experience. How does a person react to surviving a loss or trauma? How does that contrast with other similar episodes, such as Lot surviving Sodom? Should Noah have tried to sway the people around him to shape up? What does the answer mean for you and me as individuals? For a society? What message underlies the narrative element that has the deluge result from interpersonal crimes rather than cardinal sins such as idolatry?

The insistence on seeing the story as historical is a distraction from its purpose at best, and otherwise detracts from what it's getting at. Likewise the earlier quibbles in this thread over the amount of food and whatnot. The author(s) wasn't/weren't writing an apocalyptic survival manual, but an exploration of human emotional (and spiritual) development. So of course it has value. How much value the reader derives from it depends greatly on the attitude one takes in studying it, and how deeply Noah's circumstances resonate with him or her. That varies greatly from individual to individual, and I would suggest to your mother that she focus primarily on the internal themes rather than the superficial narrative. It'll be a healthier result for all involved.
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It is such a pleasure to make your acquaintance!
 
ynot said:
You can’t debunk a story that can be propped-up with divine intervention (aka magic).
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Very much this. You can handwave it all away with "god can do anything, he's magic."

I'm not really sure how to put this...but unless someone is already doubting, and already asking questions, there's nothing anyone can do to change their minds. And trying just becomes manipulative.

I'd rather my family didn't believe the preacher's lies, but if I try to convince them to think the way I think, I'm no better than that preacher. It's the same thing.
 
Since it's entirely faith-based and not fact based. Facts are pointless. Since, according to her, God can do anything, then yes the ark was a TARDIS or was magic or whatever. He made it work. The less sense it makes, the stronger her faith.

It's unpleasant, but I guess I'd start pointing out all the horrible things happening in the world and suggest that they are God's will. He's willing to wipe out the entire population of Earth except for one family. Why would he not cause tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.? That's chump change. And he certainly has the power to stop it. Any misfortune in the world or in your mom's life is, unfortunately, God's will. Just like the flood.

Ward
 
Gawdzilla said:
I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot.
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Not his "lot", just Noah. He is the only one described in Genesis as being righteous and blameless. No mention of his sons and their wives in this respect.
 
ynot said:
You can’t debunk a story that can be propped-up with divine intervention (aka magic).
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This is quite true. You can argue that if the Sloth had to leave South America to get to the Ark on time, the "pair" would have had to leave South America before (according to a True Blue Literalist believer) the Earth was actually formed.

You could argue that Koalas could never have gotten from or back to Australia, because they sleep 18 hours a day, and that their food does not even exist in most parts of the world.

The fallback decision is God "magicked" them into the Ark. And using this argument, you could even argue that the ark was a small rowing boat, and that all animal "kinds" could haver been kept in a Petri Dish, and did not have to eat. All was needed was their DNA, and then God simply popped them back to where they belonged. You could also argue that God faked the whole thing and simply convinced the author(s) of Genesis that this really happened. After all, God can do anything, and convincing a budding author that this actually happened would be pretty easy, and save a lot of effort in the short term.

I have never worked out however, why all the "kinds" of animals (bar two or seven, or seven pairs) had to be destroyed for peoples sins. What did the poor bloody Polar Bears, Aardvarks and Tasmanian Tigers do to get murdered? Which two were chosen, and why that pair? And I am not convinced that Ants and Bees sinned to the extent that there were only two of each on the Ark.

I can Magick them into the Ark and home again, I just wonder what God had against animals which were (according to Religionists) no concept of "Sin".

But let's take it literally and let's see...the Ark opens up and two Lions and two Zebra emerge. Nothing for the Zebra to eat - all the grasslands have vanished - washed away by the flood. Two Zebra for the Lions to eat, fairly promply, this happens. Why are there Zebras today?

Norm
 
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Lowpro said:
Agreed. But that's the fault of the moron believing the Bible (or Tanakh) and I am more interested in why it is written the way it is than taking the actual content seriously.

But I don't want to be argumentative about that. BTW did you ever read that Trueorigins link you posted Leumas? It had a good refutation http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/henke_refutes_sarfati.htm
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According to Paul L. Meier, the reason for the Genesis containing so much conflicting information is because it is a compilation of books that all where telling the same stories, but with slight variations, that was then later blended together in an editorial process. Well, so much for the unalterable word of God.
 
Anybody ever use a two-man bucksaw? That would have required many thousands of hours of work to produce the lumber needed for the hull alone. And they hadn't invented it yet at the purported time of the flood.
 
God provided everything required and made everything possible. - Amen and end of story.
 
Mudcat said:
3 years back, almost 4 years, her husband had a seizure while driving his truck and got into a lethal accident with a tree. He was dead before the neighbors even got a chance to call for help, but they at least managed to pull him out before the truck caught on fire (which is something I guess).

So in a word: Desperation.

Before this she wasn't any more religious than I am.
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Mudcat,

Just leave her alone. I would even suggest that you go along with her and even listen and participate with her.

Do not tell her that you would cut her off or threaten her in anyway.

I would even have a bible reading session with her once a week and do it over a nice cup of tea and let her cook for you as much food as you can eat or even take home with you afterwards.

Look….. she is faced with her own mortality and she is AFRAID and needs COMFORT.

She is your mother….she is a Jewish mother…. They are the BEST EVER and she deserves all the comfort you can give her.

Even if it pains you to sit and listen or even discuss with her….even if it is painful…. You should do it.

She looked after you and wiped away your drool and your stool and took care of you when you were still a fool.

Now it is your turn to look after her and comfort her and make her life happier if she is afraid or unhappy it is YOUR DUTY to alleviate all that.

So what if she is immersed in the b.s. of the bible…. So long as she is not directly or indirectly (passively or actively) hurting anyone and all she is doing is alleviating her fears then so what.

Even if you do not like the rubbish….just go along…. She had to put up with your S**** so now put up with hers.

I would even go as far as to include the children. Do of course point out to them that it is just as meaningless as reading a Harry Potter or Charles Dickens book but let them give her fun too….just make sure to decontaminate them later, or even better, during the interaction with your mother.

For example if she says to them something immediately counteract it with the logical stuff and some analysis…even if your mother might not quite like that… she will still have fun.

Make sure you let her do a lot of cooking….. you get to eat and she feels useful and needed and it will distract her from the issues of mortality.

Be a good child and pay back to your mother her dues.
 
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dafydd said:
It takes different people in different ways. When my wife died of liver cancer eight years ago my atheism became even more steadfast.
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Me too..... the tragedies, injustices and misery I have witnessed during my travels around the world combined with my own losses have divested me of any God Delusions.


I have matured and wised up beyond the need for the comforting delusion of a SKY DADDY who would hit the bullies for me and bring me candy and at the end of the day tuck me in a comfy bed.

Unfortunately most people still need to inject that opium to alleviate the pain of REALITY.
 
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