Iraq war worth the cost?

[Virus]

Why do you think there were so many droves there to die?

Because they came from the other Arab countries to wage jihad.

Do you think we got them all?

Most of them. The few that are left are severely weakened and very unpopular. They're mainly into crime now.

Do you think that the families and children of all the ones we killed are saying, "Eh, so what?"

Terrorist's fault for waging jihad. If they didn't wage jihad, the Coalition could have left.

The US made no friends with this war, but made a lot of enemies.

Iraq is actually a US ally now.

Nominally, no, but Iran holds a heck of a lot of influence over Iraq now. They control things much more than they did when Saddam was in power. So which side of this double-edged sword do you prefer? The westernized dictator who hated America, or the theocracy in the country next door which, to a great extent, controls Iraq now, and also hates America? We attacked Iraq because of the rumors of Weapons of Mass Destruction. It is now apparent to everyone that Iran is much more dangerous in that respect than Iraq ever was. Plus they don't have to worry about Saddam attacking them again. Win-win for Tehran.

It doesn't control Iraq.

 

[leftysergeant]

Because they came from the other Arab countries to wage jihad.

That happens when you kill the pit bull and put a poodle to guard the gate.

Most of them. The few that are left are severely weakened and very unpopular. They're mainly into crime now.

I heard a lot asbout that in another war years ago. That was BS, too.

Terrorist's fault for waging jihad. If they didn't wage jihad, the Coalition could have left.

Well, that kind of thing happens when you prove that you are the bully that your enemies say you are.

Iraq is actually a US ally for now.

fify

It doesn't control Iraq.

Not neccessary. If the Iraqis elect a government more sympathetic to Iranian interests than American, we are that much worse off than we were.

 

[Virus]

I just don't buy that Iraq was better off as a genocidal fascist regime.

Let's just agree to disagree rather than you giving us another post about merry-morons and drongos.

 

[a_unique_person]

It didn't energize the enemies, they're died in droves in Iraq. It's also not a theocracy.

The Taliban is still strong. If the US had concentrated on removing the Taliban, going after Bin Laden, and doing what claimed it had a right to do, get revenge for 9/11, just possibly, that might have worked, but it was always going to need far more resources than have ever been put into that country. By starting a war under false pretences in Iraq, any victory is tainted by deceit. As it is, no one knows what the future for Iraq will hold.

 

[Virus]

The Taliban is still strong. If the US had concentrated on removing the Taliban, going after Bin Laden, and doing what claimed it had a right to do, get revenge for 9/11, just possibly, that might have worked, but it was always going to need far more resources than have ever been put into that country. By starting a war under false pretences in Iraq, any victory is tainted by deceit. As it is, no one knows what the future for Iraq will hold.

You called for pulling out of Afghanistan.

 

[leftysergeant]

You called for pulling out of Afghanistan.

We got Bin Laden, in spite of the Shrub's stupidity.

Nobody ever successfully occupied Afghanistan.

We can no more afford to continue trying to do so than the Russians could.

 

[Virus]

We got Bin Laden, in spite of the Shrub's stupidity.

Nobody ever successfully occupied Afghanistan.

We can no more afford to continue trying to do so than the Russians could.

Afghanistan has never been better.

 

[angrysoba]

Not worth it, IMHO.

Still, one does not know the "alternative histories" that might have played out had we not behaved as we did.

Taleb discusses these alternative histories in "Fooled By Randomness", which I'm reading now, PLUS Karen and I are working our way through the second season of "Fringe", so maybe I just have this stuff on my mind.

Anytime someone says, "It couldn't possibly be any worse", I feel they really haven't considered ALL the possible alternative histories.

There may be some people saying, "It couldn't possibly be worse" but I think the main thing to focus on is whether the war was worth the cost. That is, after all, the OP. To say that there are alternative histories in which things are much worse is not really to say anything particularly useful if you already accept that things could have been worse. But for many people in Iraq and for many who went to fight in Iraq it really wasn't worth the costs. It falls on those who think it was worth the costs to say so. Most of the time all they restrict themselves to saying is that "democracy is better than theocratic fascism". Yet that is question-begging as we are still no closer to understanding why the Iraq War was "worth it".

It didn't energize the enemies, they're died in droves in Iraq. It's also not a theocracy.

Yes, Iraqis died in droves in Iraq. Many of them were killed by other sectarian groups. If you think the way that you do then you may start believing that the best thing to do is encourage sectarian conflict and pay both sides to kill each other. It would mean that you would have to be somewhat unconcerned about the deaths of civilians who got in the way but providing you keep repeating the mantra about this democracy being better than theocratic fascism then who cares, eh?

Or I could stay tuned for evidence that Iraq is a theocracy.

I don't know if Iraq is a theocracy or not. But it isn't secular, as the constitution makes clear. Similarly some of the parties of God are most certainly in ascendance. Here's the constitution:

Article (1): The Republic of Iraq is an independent, sovereign nation, and the system of rule in it is a democratic, federal, representative (parliamentary) republic.

Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

Admittedly some of the other parts of the constitution seem to be models of good liberal and social freedoms. But how it works in practice is difficult to say. Unless you, Virus, could give some more than mere belligerent rhetoric to back up your points. If you do reply, please try to use grammatically correct sentences as literacy makes one look less like some thug from the Hitler Youth.

I just don't buy that Iraq was better off as a genocidal fascist regime.

Let's just agree to disagree rather than you giving us another post about merry-morons and drongos.

I think that would be the best option for you and for others who blustered for the war in Iraq. Can't we just forget about it all and agree that we have different opinions?

Afghanistan has never been better.

The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, I think you mean.

 

[The Don]

Afghanistan has never been better.

Oh, it has - but it has been worse in places...

 

[Squidgy]

It always makes me sick that none of these articles mention the million odd Iraqis that have been killed over the last decade.

 

[Robrob]

Afghanistan has never been better.

Have you been there?

 

[Tricky]

Because they came from the other Arab countries to wage jihad.

The overwhelming majority came from Iraq.

Most of them. The few that are left are severely weakened and very unpopular. They're mainly into crime now.

You think? That's why the country is still having explosions practically every day?

Terrorist's fault for waging jihad. If they didn't wage jihad, the Coalition could have left.

These weren't anti-US terrorists. These were factionists that were unleashed by the turmoil following the overthrow of Saddam.

Iraq is actually a US ally now.

How long do you expect that to last? They're the ones who ordered us to leave, remember? The US is still disliked and mistrusted in Iraq.

It doesn't control Iraq.

It has more control now than ever before. Don't you read the news?

 

[Virus]

Like what I told Leftysargent, I just don't buy that a genocidal fascist regime run by the Sunni minority is the best that Iraq can do.

Agree to disagree.

 

[angrysoba]

Like what I told Leftysargent, I just don't buy that a genocidal fascist regime run by the Sunni minority is the best that Iraq can do.

Agree to disagree.

This is irrelevant to the OP.

The OP was not "Was a theocratic genocidal fascist regime the best possible thing for Iraq?" was it?

Because if that's what the OP was I would have said, "No."

The question was whether the war was worth the cost.

You think it was worth the cost because it cost you absolutely nothing.

But, in order to be objective about this, you probably need to have some idea of what it cost others.

Could you tell us just how many people you think died in this conflict?

How many were displaced?

Then, maybe you could give an account of the financial costs?

Perhaps, how much it cost the reputation of the "Coalition"?

How much it cost the West in terms of strategic influence?

 

[Virus]

Ask Saddam if it was worth it. Since he initiated hostilities between Iraq and the US that were never resolved by the ceasefire agreement.

 

[leftysergeant]

Ask Saddam if it was worth it. Since he initiated hostilities between Iraq and the US that were never resolved by the ceasefire agreement.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I can empathize with the internal conflict which must arise when one must reconcile the fact that the aforementioned moronic shrub...

Graduated from both Harvard and Yale.

Learned the systems and procedures for a military jet and solo'd it.

Was elected governor of Texas.

Was elected president of the US.

Still, it must nice to have someone to denigrate and insult and cast aspersions on and to feel superior to.

While one's own accomplishments pale by comparison.

Sigh.

 

[angrysoba]

I can empathize with the internal conflict which must arise when one must reconcile the fact that the aforementioned moronic shrub...

Graduated from both Harvard and Yale.

Learned the systems and procedures for a military jet and solo'd it.

Was elected governor of Texas.

Was elected president of the US.

Still, it must nice to have someone to denigrate and insult and cast aspersions on and to feel superior to.

While one's own accomplishments pale by comparison.

Sigh.

I don't think any of that is important re: the OP.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I don't think any of that is important re: the OP.

You're right - I got derailed by the personal attacks. My bad.

I'm on record already that my answer to the OP question is "No".

If Iraq degenerates into civil war and ethnic violence, which I see as likely, then what long term difference did our sacrifice of blood and treasure really make? If it was just to postpone the inevitable, I'd say it was a tragic waste.

 

[leftysergeant]

I can empathize with the internal conflict which must arise when one must reconcile the fact that the aforementioned moronic shrub...

Graduated from both Harvard and Yale.

Learned the systems and procedures for a military jet and solo'd it.

Was elected governor of Texas.

Was elected president of the US.

Still, it must nice to have someone to denigrate and insult and cast aspersions on and to feel superior to.

While one's own accomplishments pale by comparison.

Sigh.

Yeah, I have come nowhere close to destroying my higher mental functions with booze and coke, nor am I a superstitious twit who thinks feeding the rich is good for working people and that Jesus loves the rich above beggars.