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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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The LRRR is a pretty hard piece of evidence Garrison....The last time I checked, they were still bouncing stuff off of it.....

Again you quote a post, mine in this case, and avoid the substance of the argument. The existance of the LRRR does not one thing to advance your outlandish claims, so how about you address the substantive points of my post. A quick reminder:

Now you insist only a couple of hundred people would have to know, ignoring the vast numbers who would have been needed to create that mountain of photographic, physical, and transmission, evidence(were it even possible to fake it, which it is not), not to mention the generations of politicians, engineers and military personnel who would have had to guard the secret in the decades since.

So come on Patrick explain how they did all that with a couple of hundred people? Explain how they got all those moon rocks? Show us one shred of hard evidence for this secret military hardware you keep telling us about. Or alternately stop making foolish claims about subjects you clearly know nothing about.
 
The hardware Garrison is the easy part....Thomas Kelly built the LM to land on the moon, and so Kelly's LM could and so it did. The military guys just added a few gadgets. Get it?

No.

Thomas Kelly built the LM to be landed on the Moon by a human pilot. Numerous well-known and easily verified features make this requirement a necessity.

You instead argued that the LM could have landed itself, automatically. This was based on your poor reading of a single source, which actually contradicted your claims. You left that topic alone for several weeks hoping that we would all forget your mistake. Then you raised the topic again, abandoning your claim (without comment or acknowledgement) that the LM was fully automatic, and instead substituting the new claim that it was secretly modified by the military between delivery and launch.

I asked you several questions related to that claim, which you ignored.

I now ask them again:

1. Name the people who modified the lunar module, and show evidence of their involvement.
2. Describe precisely what "gadgets" were installed, and show evidence that they were actually manufactured and fitted as you claim.
3. For Apollo 11, LM-5, show when in the schedule the alleged fitting occurred.
4. Explain how the Grumman operators, including Tom Kelly, working in Mission Control during the mission were fooled into thinking their LM was operating as they had delivered it.

Of course you will ignore these questions again, but I ask them in order to underscore your inability to provide anything more than a vague fairy tale.

The "infallible" Dr. Socks now admits that the off-the-shelf lunar module can't have operated as he initially said it did. And in order to patch up the newly-realized hole in his theory, he has to simply invent more stuff that "must" have been done. Increasing the level of conjecture in one's theory makes it less likely to be true, not more.

My version of Apollo requires the LM simply to have behaved as documented in the design. No conjecture needed.

With respect to the new topic, say Project Mercury, one could argue that the whole thing more likely than not was about those 6 unmanned Atlas launches.

Additional conjecture presented as fact -- rejected.

They were simply ballistic missile test launches utilizing live warheads.

You've provided no actual evidence that any of the Mercury missions were anything other than what they claim to have been.

Your entire argument rests on the trumped-up "requirement" that missiles must be tested with live warheads. You've provided no rationale for this requirement beyond the layman's guess that this would be the "only way" to test. You completely ignore the detailed explanations from people who actually do this, and rely instead on your uninformed supposition.

Who cares about the rest of the launches?

You did at one time. Are you now conceding that you have changed your "infallible" conclusion?

You guys make this Space Program/Military Program stuff too difficult.

No, we present the actual requirements. You ignore them because you don't have the proper training and expertise to realize that they are, in fact, requirements. You stay firmly rooted in your layman's caricature of aerospace flight test. And for any holes you can't sidestep, you simply invent a speculative, unevidenced process that "must" have been secretly accomplished to make your theory fit the facts.

I find it rather amusing that I consistently say the same thing over and over in this regard...

Yes, you repeat the same beliefs over and over again without providing a shred of proof for any of them. You don't know the difference between conjecture and fact.

Are you telling me something indirectly here, that you actually agree with me and this is why you keep avoiding/ignoring my VERY VERY GOOD AND INDEED MOST EXCELLENT POINT?

No, Patrick. No one secretly or indirectly agrees with you. We dismiss your claims because you aren't willing to provide anything more substantial than a statement of ignorant belief, while ignoring the holes in your claims.
 
Eyes have a wider range of light receptivity, not fixed in the same sense as that of a camera.....That said, [y]our (sic)point is a good one though Jay, but nevertheless it does not negate mine.....

Yes it does. Why do you think astronomers work so hard to take time exposures that can take multiple nights?

Btw, the engineering, a skill that you either negate or ignore, that went into making massive precision instruments, meaning huge, multi-ton telescopes, always amazes me.
 
The LRRR is a pretty hard piece of evidence Garrison....The last time I checked, they were still bouncing stuff off of it.....

The demonstrated existence of the LRRR is not proof that it is being used for the secret purpose you claim. If I claim that my garlic press is a secret government listening device, the factual existence of my garlic press doesn't prove my claim regarding it.

And you ignored Garrison's point -- are you ever going to deal with the mountains of evidence your theory doesn't yet explain?
 
They are/were weaponizing space just as we are/were Loss Leader....The last thing the Soviets are/were going to do is/was blow the whistle. You don't think the planet would FREAK if people knew the Ruskies and Uncle Sammys were planting bombs atop everyone's head?

It wouldn't "FREAK" people at all - unless they are clueless about SLBMs.

Are you saying instead of ICBMs our nuclear arsenal was/is actually in space? Why would either side do that?

You haven't given a rationale answer to any rebuttals offered by the professionals in this thread - so I won't hold my breath that you will answer this in a coherent manner.
 
Ir I wanted to know if my warhead could withstand a launch and re-entry I would launch a missile with an instrument pack to record the G Forces, Shacks and temperatures encountered.

Once I had this data I would design my warhead to withstand the conditions.

WHy would I design a warhead with random specification that I hoped was right and then launch it to see if it still worked?

And what if the real launch was a little bit different (as they all are), and pulled a little more G, or entered at a slightly steeper angle, and got a little hotter, and the warhead ailed, even though the test worked perfectly.

Your idea is of course far more sensible. Once one has the environmental data, one can design and test the equipment to have a comfortable safety margin in excess of the conditions actually encountered.

Apparently Patrick1000 thinks engineering works like this.
 
'Added a few Gadgets' ?

Who designed the gadgets? who built them? who tested them? who fitted them? Who tested the LM with the new gadgets?
 
I don't think so Matt, you need lots of dudes to run the fraud....But all except a relative handful need to be in on it. I would imagine perhaps a hundred, two hundred people knew, and most of those would have NOT been directly involved as NASA employees.

NASA is a military front, and as such, the best way to keep it functional is to NOT let on any with respect to all of this.

It's all legit in a very meaningful sense matt, get it?????

Oh, and now comes the standard insult about the military; that they only know what they are ordered to do and they never question those orders. Or talk about them. Or take video and give it to a third party.

People don't switch off their brains when they put on a uniform. If they did, they'd be a lot less useful. There's a reason there is additional training after BASIC for anyone who wants to rise up to higher ranks, and it isn't just reinforcement of obedience. It is a variety of technical subjects that must be understood and mastered so every officer, every NCO, all the way down to every member of a fire team can understand the objective and apply themselves creatively towards accomplishing it.

Oh, sure, you could tell a detail "Pick up that box, load in on to that ship, and don't tell anyone." And they won't talk about it on duty. But they will think about it. And talk about it back in the barracks.

And your missions require a great deal more than brute labor. They require technicians and engineers. People who need to know what is inside the box in order to get it to work the way the conspiracy wants it to. Simply ordering them not to think about it is a non-starter.
 
The hardware Garrison is the easy part....Thomas Kelly built the LM to land on the moon, and so Kelly's LM could and so it did. The military guys just added a few gadgets. Get it?

And waved their hands mightily over the mass, volume, access, power, changes to CoG, etc. Unlike, say, the inclusion of a single additional camera, which required cognizance of all these factors.

Oh...and they also sent up this highly critical win-the-cold-war gear without testing it at all. I'm surprised, after all the fuss you've made over ICBMs, you are willing to have your conspiracy launch a bunch of bleeding edge electronics without any kind of testing.

But then, considering as we don't seem to have any sign of the design, theory work, or manufacturing of said equipment, perhaps that isn't such a problem!
 
Might I ask WHO it was that you checked with to confirm this information?

The LRRRs are passive devices and in general can still be ranged, despite Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/etc.'s hilarious claim (since self-contradicted, like so many of his fantasies) that they were some sort of "active" devices that needed some special signal to respond.

There were active devices such as the RTG-powered ALSEP laboratories that operated for years after the astronauts carefully hand-deployed them, returning on the order of 30 Gb of valuable science data to tracking stations around the world. Unlike P1k/fd/DT/etc.'s fact-, clue-, and evidence-free hallucinations about military hardware, they actually exist and were, like all the real aspects of Apollo, thoroughly documented. (My boss worked on them.) You can get ALSEP data from the NSSDC (National Space Science Data Center).
 
I think they stopped ranging from McDonald in 2009......

Might I ask WHO it was that you checked with to confirm this information?

I think they stopped ranging from McDonald in 2009, but my understanding is the boys running Apache Point range the reflectors to within millimeters accuracy to this day. The ranger at the point there came on line in 2005. At least as best I can recall.

In 1969, the Lick Observatory staff were the first to range the Apollo 11 LRRR. I correspond directly with Joseph Wampler, one of the Astronomers who was involved in the original project. Professor Wampler gave me permission to share the substance of our conversations as I wish. I have shared little here detail wise, but can assure you fess that the LRRR was ranged by the Lick Observatory team in 1969. There is no question as to that reality, the authenticity of that ranging.

The best general article on Lick Observatory and the LRRR is probably Scientific American, March 1970. The LRRR is on the cover fess, very cool. If you are interested in the subject in greater detail, and if you have a membership to SCIENCE, the scientific journal's archives, go to that archive and search lunar laser retroreflector. You will get all of the old stuff, the original articles by Alley, Faller, the big players, and then you'll find the current stuff as well.

My interests in Apollo are primarily historical, so if you are interested in current matters, I am afraid I cannot be of much more help than as above detail wise, who you might talk to. Write to Apache Point. That would be helpful in terms of getting names of active LRRR players. You might google their scientific publications as well.

I myself plan to visit the Apache Point facility and McDonald as well in 2012. I was up on Mauna Kea earlier in the year. I believe they did some ranging there, though the great observatories on that hill are not open to the public in any meaningful sense, at least not on a regular basis as is our local Lick Observatory. Off topic, but the trip to Mauna Kea is worth it, SPECTACULAR!!!!!
 
Oh, and may I paraphrase the crew of Apollo 8 by wishing you (whatever your traditions, beliefs, or lack thereof) good night, good luck and Merry Christmas - all of you on the good Earth, from which explorers ventured to the Moon some four decades ago.
 
But the Soviets were, quite spectacularly, behind us in the race to the moon. And they lost a huge, huge PR battle because of it in the midst of the cold war - just when each nation is trying to secure as many allies as possible. What possible reason would our enemies have for keeping our secrets? It's not like we didn't make fun of Stalin every time someone disappeared from a picture.

Yep, the Soviets spent all that money trying to keep up with the US in an imaginary space race.

:boggled:

All we get is your lack of understanding and evidence for your claims. You airly wave away the evidence of the moon rocks while insisting on the existence of mysterious automated military hardware for which you can offer not one shred of evidence.

Circular and self contradictory CT "logic." We didn't have the open tech to get to the Moon but we had the secret tech to get there. Secret tech that is still secret, four decades later?

Now you insist only a couple of hundred people would have to know, ignoring the vast numbers who would have been needed to create that mountain of photographic, physical, and transmission, evidence(were it even possible to fake it, which it is not), not to mention the generations of politicians, engineers and military personnel who would have had to guard the secret in the decades since.

CT reinvent themselves after each debunking. Many times they take the debunked claim and use it as "evidence" in their new claim. E.G. it's impossible to pretend the thousands of people involved in the space race could have been "in on it" so the CT has to pretend it could have been done with only a few hundred conspirators.

:rolleyes:
 
Eyes have a wider range of light receptivity, not fixed in the same sense as that of a camera.....That said,our point is a good one though Jay, but nevertheless it does not negate mine.....

Actually, you are wrong. The instantaneous dynamic range of the eye is easily beaten by a camera. Our wide dynamic range is a quality of the eye's ability to adjust, and the illusion of being able to see all of the items in this wide range simultaneously is an artifact of our visual processing.
 
I never did CT before, never read another's views until mine were wholly formed....

Yep, the Soviets spent all that money trying to keep up with the US in an imaginary space race.

:boggled:



Circular and self contradictory CT "logic." We didn't have the open tech to get to the Moon but we had the secret tech to get there. Secret tech that is still secret, four decades later?



CT reinvent themselves after each debunking. Many times they take the debunked claim and use it as "evidence" in their new claim. E.G. it's impossible to pretend the thousands of people involved in the space race could have been "in on it" so the CT has to pretend it could have been done with only a few hundred conspirators.

:rolleyes:

I never did CT before, never read another's views until mine were wholly formed....

Whether I am proven wrong , or ultimately vindicated, no one will ever be able to say my ideas were borrowed/copied/stolen. There are a few I share with friends having developed them together, but by and large Robrob, these were my first, best and only takes. See my list of 11 reasons above, my favorite "Apollo must be fraud topics". Read those anywhere else? Didn't think so.......

That said, after I did get into the Apollo thing, I did learn of Bill Kaysing. A real innovator, but an atrocious, an absolutely horrendous writer. Ralph Rene was extremely talented, but Rene focused pretty much solely on Fraud per se and not at all on context/motive and so forth. Ditto for Jarrah White. I think he is very talented, gifted gifted gifted, but Jarrah is a modern Rene. No context to his criticism. We all want to know not only whether or not that is was fraud but also WHY it was fraud, HOW it was fraud, WHO were the men and women perpetrating the fraud. Bart Sibrel is a joke. Matter of fact, I believe him to be a pro official story plant. I look at the work of these guys at times, though it is VERY RARE that I do.

Regardless of what anyone claims about me, my Apollo fraud ideas are my own and uninfluenced by ANY PREDECESSORS/CONTEMPORARIES WHATSOEVER. I am the first Apollo researcher to propose a motive, and in so doing present a theory that not only includes, but is born of, emphasizes context no less, very detailed context matter-o-fact. Also, I am the first Apollo researcher to name name and single out the fraud perps, guys like Bales, Aaron, Phillips and the others mentioned above.
 
I suggested the original articles from SCIENCE magazine Jay....

No, the best material on the LRRR is in the professional literature, not the popular press.

Take a look at my post. I suggested the original articles from SCIENCE magazine Jay as a reading source that would provide fess with greater detail on the LRRR subject than would the Scientific American article of Wampler and Faller from MArch 1970. However, most are not interested in the subject to the same degree we are Jay, and such a foray into the realm of that literature, the original publications of Alley, Faller in SCIENCE, would be bewildering for the uninitiated to say the least. The Scientific American article, in the magazine's tradition really, is a good way to go for the casually curious.

As an aside, Scientific American was a great publication in those heady days. That article on the LRRR from March 1970 is demonstrative of how well they presented things to the generally interested science literate public. It is a beautiful article. The mag has gone so so so far down hill since those great years. I am actually a bit embarrassed for them.
 
Well the Soviets buy in totally, well publicly they do anyway.....They were/are doing/did the same things we were doing/did. It would be/was no different there than here. Any smart guy that caught on in the Soviet Union wasn't/isn't talking about this, or if they do, they are encouraged one way or the other not to. Just like we are here. No different.

The Soviets/Ruskies have/had basically the same program we have/had.


No. Even if we were to grant for the sake of argument that your other claims are true, this argument fails due to the fact that America is a free society, and the Soviet Union was not. All the Soviets would have needed to have done would have been to have secretly provided their intelligence information on these bogus space programs to half a dozen major American news organizations, and the secret would have been out. Conversely, the US had no abiliity to out the Soviet program in this manner, as all Soviet media were state controlled.

As a side note, if you go back and add an additional comment to a post, the custom is to type "ETA:" in front of it, for "Edited to add:".
 
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