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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Say it is 1959 Loss leader instead of 2009. How would you know that your warhead was OK and would detonate as it should after passing through the atmosphere at unimaginable speeds? How would you know that your heat shield protected your warhead?


Sorry, Patrick, that is not what you said. You said a real test required firing a MIRV with a live warhead at the Soviet Union.

You said:


Again, it is 1961 and Nikita Khrushchev has been eating piroshki and cutting farts in Uncle Sam's White, Blue and RED face, making fun of us ... What you want to do of course, among many other things, is at least for starters shoot an Atlas missile carrying a "live/real warhead" that cannot be triggered, a few of them, from Cape Canaveral toward the general direction of the Soviet Union, ...
Not so hard, and no one even knew, except of course the military guys, the prez and Ruskies.


So, if a successful test was one where we fired at the Russians, how can you call the Mercury and Gemini missions tests? They were fired from Florida east across the Atlantic Ocean. It is hard to think of a worse way to get a warhead to Russia than to fly it over every single friendly European and Mediteranian nation on earth before crossing into Chinese airspace and making a sharp left for the USSR.

The requirements in order for Mercury and Gemini to be part of your secret tests are simply not met. And it would be hard to discount the thousands and thousands of people who lined the beaches and watched the rockets go East out over the Atlantic.

Your theory is inconsistent with the facts and, as you yourself say, must be untrue.
 
The best test of an ICBM would be to launch a live bird a long way, simulating as close as possible the flight distance/direction/gravitational field/magnetic field circumstances of an "at war launch".


This isn't the first time you mentioned it but I am still in shock you had the arrogance to repeat it. Magnetic field???

You just throw crap out and not expect anybody to call you on it but we always call you on it. You just can't learn from your mistakes! Man, you are so scientifically illiterate.

Magnetic field??? Bwahahahaha!
 
http://vimeo.com/32001208

It is a low light camera, but your own eyes would do better than this camera, would be able to see the stars and bright earth as well, depending on circumstances.

It is only a matter of time, that day of infamy.


These are some the pictures used to compile that video:

http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/scripts/sseop/photo.pl?mission=ISS030&roll=E&frame=5779

Click on View camera file.

It says, in part:

Shutter: 1.3
Aperture: 3.2
ISO Speed: 12800
Focal Length: 19.0 mm

This is information you could have found yourself to debunk your own claim but you're too arrogant to be bothered with real science.

Is there any light collecting component in that list that does not outperform the human eye?
 
Cool Tomblvd, why don't you break it down for us...

The burden of proof is yours to demonstrate that Apollo 8 was handled inappropriately from a medical standpoint, as you claim. Stop trying to make others do your homework.

Your opinion means nothing because you lack the appropriate credentials and will not submit otherwise to any test of your medical knowledge. Dr. Berry's findings need no further endorsement because his qualifications to make them are not in dispute.

Now either provide the endorsement of your claims that the people are asking for, or withdraw your claim.
 
My point in bringing up the medical degree issue in the context of W.D. Clinger's post had to do with my wanting to emphasize that all those technical degrees did not, do not , add up to squat in the context of debating the Apollo fraud.

No. You claimed the astronauts had "below average intelligence." That has nothing to do with medical degrees and it has nothing to do with debating your fraud fantasy. It was a mean-spirited pot-shot at men you've spent months vilifying for your own pleasure.

You stated a testable proposition, and evidence was provided that soundly refuted that proposition. Rather than deal with that evidence, you changed the subject to a topic you thought you could win. You do this all the time -- quoting posts to make it appear that you're involved, but then launching into a completely irrelevant discussion.

You were refuted and you refuse to concede. It really is that simple.
 
This is because one of the fraud perpetrators' favorite ploys/strategies is to "pull rank" on critics and use the argument that because this all occurred in an "aerospace" context, an aerospace background/education is requisite for appreciating the events at their deepest level.

No, it's required to appreciate the events at their most fundamental level, and you don't have the required expertise. We've demonstrated this over and over, and you know it -- that's why you steadfastly refuse to answer so many of the relevant questions. You know that your fumbling attempts to answer would give you away as the charlatan you are. You scramble and gyrate to declare those topics irrelevant.

Invoking the applicable sciences is not "pulling rank." It's simply how the real world works.
 
Obviously these guys/NASA are not doing what they are saying that they are doing.

...
Who knows what those unmanned Atlas launches were really about in terms of the actual vehicle specs and payload specs.

Assertion followed by argument from ignorance. This is why you fail.

...this is about ICBM technology, all of it.

And the world awaits the details of how a Mercury mission even vaguely approximates an ICBM test.
 
The best test of an ICBM would be to launch a live bird a long way...

"Live" meaning containing a nuclear warhead? Why is the warhead required?

Please perform a dispersion analysis to show the trend in dispersions in an ICBM flight as distance increases. Show your work.

...simulating as close as possible the flight distance/direction/gravitational field/magnetic field circumstances of an "at war launch".

Hahahahahaha!

In the context of the test there would be careful monitoring telemetry/visuals from above...

Why above?

...and below

Is it easier to monitor the extent of a long flight, or a short flight?

including telemetry from the reentry vehicle

Actual warheads do not have the capability to send telemetry. The instrument packages we actually use have telemetry. Here you go again, pretending that you now "know" something that was told to you just recently by someone else in rebuttal.

This is the ONLY way to tell if the thing...

Nonsense. You aren't even remotely qualified to make that judgment, and you have stubbornly refused to answer any of my questions regarding how much you know about aerospace test.

I think it's remarkably disingenuous, if not outright laughable, that you would claim that ICBM testing is not rocket science and therefore doesn't require appropriate training to properly interpret the goals, techniques, and results. Can I double-Stundie this?

READ THEIR STUFF AND READ THE MACKENZIE BOOK I REFERENCED.

My qualifications and experience exceed MacKenzie's. I told you I would not even consider him a source until you had addressed my comments regarding him and Refuto. Why have you ignored that? Is it because those sources are all Google Books will give you?
 
My point was that what is requisite for the understanding of Apollo, is not a knowledge of aerospace sciences as Apollo is not about aerospace science. Rather, Apollo is an ever so transparent phony story that seeks to cover military activities with a series of make believe tales about fighter pilots landing spaceships on the moon.

...

This is because one of the fraud perpetrators' favorite ploys/strategies is to "pull rank" on critics and use the argument that because this all occurred in an "aerospace" context, an aerospace background/education is requisite for appreciating the events at their deepest level.

Actually and quite quite obviously, its deepest level is one of FRAUD, one of MAKE BELIEVE. One need not have a degree or special training of any sort to simply read maps, and if one is a critical thinker of average intelligence, one cannot help but come to the conclusion that the Apollo 11 flown LAM-2 Map of Michael Collins is FRAUDULENT BEYOND A DOUBT. This, given its intentional misgridding featuring landing elipse central target coordinates; 00 42' 50" north and 23 42' 28" east instead of the appropriate and accurate 00 43' 53" north and 23 38' 51" east.

No.

The above is merely a long-winded (almost the point of incoherence) explication of what every moron argues when told by a technical person that something won't work as they expect or will be more expensive than they think.

Every technical field has experienced these idiots; these people who come up and say, "All of your technical talk is beside the point, because it is only common sense that...."

They are almost always wrong. The real world is not constrained to obey our naive expectations.
 
Perps!!!!

Since I made that nice list of 11 points which taken collectively, or in some cases individually(Borman illness) prove Apollo bogus, I though it would be worthwhile to also provide a year end summary of the perps I have heretofore so identified. I'll follow each perp's name with a little line giving the reason why the dude is a known/suspected fraud insider. This way, when next year rolls around I'll have a summary with which to compare, both "reason for fraud" wise and perp wise.

1) All of the Apollo astronauts flying on missions 8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 were fraud insiders. They knew that Apollo was one phony program manned lunar landing wise and one great ICBM military program. One knows this to be the case as Apollo 8 has been identified as bogus given the phony Borman illness, with the reasons for the incredibly patent and ludicrous phoniness as provided in numerous previous posts above. Of course one may pick and chose from the other 11 reasons for Apollo fraud as well. the Borman illness example is a special reason as it provides for comprehensive coverage of all missions, showing them all to be fake. Apollo 8 was alleged to have shown cislunar space was navigable. As one may conclude that such was not the case, Apollo 8 never navigated through cislunar space, one may conclude NONE OF THE APOLLO SHIPS DID.

2) Harrison/Jack Schmitt deserves special attention/mention as an astronaut fraudster. Schmitt worked Apollo as a geologist first, NOT as an astronaut. As a man who became one of the renown scientist astronauts, Schmitt was the only one of these to make it to the moon. Of course the NASA/Apollo fraud insiders had to get at least one of these dudes to the moon to sort of prove the thing was legit. I mean you couldn't have all of these military types going to the moon, one pair of soldiers after another you know and have people continue to buy into this notion it was all on the up and up, peaceful and blah blah blah. So Schmitt was the anointed one, to walk upon the moon and show the world, and prove to the 400,000 Apollo workers that it was all about science. Now Schmitt was a fraudster from the get go. His role as a geologist was to feed the astronauts lines so that when they regurgitated this stuff for Shoemaker and the legit geologists, guys like Armstrong would sound like they were really paying attention and were hot stuff. See?

3) Steve Bales and Jack Garman, one or the other and probably BOTH are fraud insiders because the 1202 program alarm decision point is NOT a decision point. there really are no legit decision points. As Bales and Garman both said "GO!!!" when the only thing one could say was "GO!!!" given this thing was a fraud, one recognizes the "GO!!!!" as a piece of script and not an authentic utterance. Garman and/or Bales, more than likely BOTH are fraudsters.

3) John Aaron, flight controller was undoubtedly in on the fraud. He knew what was wrong with Apollo 12. Knew how to0 get the instruments to read correctly again after the lightening strike on Apollo 12. Since Apollo 12 was going to the moon no matter what, the lightening strike and subsequent readout problems were in no way shape or form going to keep the ship from making it to the moon. Apollo 12 was going to the moon no matter what. John Aaron identifies the fake problem and so because the "fix" is so vital to the script, one may identify it as a fake fix. Aaron reads a script to get Apollo back so that it can go to the moon after all.

4) George Mueller, Associate Administrator of the NASA Office of Manned Space Flight from September 1963 until December 1969. Mueller was a key figure in the decision to send Apollo 8 on its simulated mission to the moon after the Saturn V Apollo 6 problems were ignored and a Saturn IB rocket was used for Apollo 7. Were Apollo a real program, Mueller and colleagues would have tested the Saturn V UNMANNED after the Apollo 6 debacle.

5) Samuel Phillips, Director of NASA's Apollo Manned Lunar Landing Program from 1964 to 1969, the seventh Director of the National Security Agency, 1972-1973. Phillips gives the word for Apollo 8 to continue to the moon despite Borman's illness. His decision is made outside of the context of meaningful medical input and as such, given the fraudulence of the illness, one may easily identify Phillips as a perp.

6) Emil Schiesser, mathematician, Apollo guidance/navigation/trajectory specialist. Knew all about the shenanigans with respect to the LAM-2 map and "Hiding the Eagle" with respect to the first landing. A major player. One of the Apollo fraud's key figures. Much depended on his skills. Unlike the astronauts, I would imagine Schiesser was an actor of some ability.

7) James Webb, Thomas Paine and John F. Kennedy. Webb and Paine were the chief NASA administrators during the years of the Apollo run. Kennedy was prez early in the 60s and gave the famous moon speech. More likely than not it was understood that these programs were primarily military from the get go and had little to do with actually landing men on the moon and returning them safely to earth.

I count 27 astronauts, Bales, Garman, Aaron, Mueller, Phillips, Schiesser, Webb, Paine, Kennedy as people probably in the know and therefore official fraudsters. That is 36 altogether. Not bad work for hunting down perps since only April of this past year. Who knows what 2012 shall bring.
 
However, they are not adequate to provide the requisite confidence in our ICBM arsenal.

You aren't qualified to make this judgment.

I thought I mentioned that I liked the article you provided.

Your approval of it is irrelevant. We are asking you to reconcile your claims with how nuclear missions should be tested with the available facts regarding how they actually are tested.

The article correctly notes that we use instrument packages in the place of warheads. I have given you a detailed explanation for why we do this. Without acknowledging that, you are now suddenly claiming that the warheads themselves send telemetry. In other words, you realize what a colossal mistake you've made, but you don't want to concede that instrument packages are far superior to the warheads themselves for validating not only launch vehicle performance, but the test environment to which the warheads are subjected.

Now you've invented an improbable hybrid: a nuclear warhead instrumented with telemetry to tell its makers how it will fare. This is no different than when you realized that the Moon as a military base wouldn't do any of the things you needed it to do, and that artificial satellites were superior. You invented a hybrid approach that would use satellites, "and also the Moon," even though the Moon is now irrelevant to the overall plan. Similarly the presence of valuable fissible material is now superfluous, because the telemetry is the real value obtained from the test.

Your arrogance in refusing to concede a point you clearly know you've lost makes it tedious to discuss anything with you. You are the last to see your own errors.

The article also correctly notes that the specific trajectory is not an issue. You seem to think that the only valid test is to fire in the right general direction so as to faithfully duplicate the flight path to the Soviet Union. What you fail to discern, due to your inexperience, is that a weapon that is essentially hardwired to be able to fly only to a certain target or target area is essentially useless.

What we want -- and what we built -- is a vehicle that can fly to any practical destination we designate from time to time, including all of its "dirty" en route parameters such as terrain and mascons. This calls for a general solution, not one that works only for hitting Moscow. The general solution incorporates any reasonable launch site location, any reasonable azimuth to target, and provides the general algorithm for dealing with known and fixed intervening irregularities.

What validates the guidance strategy is the ability to hit any target selected at flight time, from any reasonable launch site, not just one target we think is valuable today, from one point in Florida. To say that we can only test meaningfully if we launch in the general direction of Moscow is as layman-esque and naive as you can get. It exhibits a deep failure to understand this class of problem at its most fundamental level. In your world, archers can only hit a target if they're firing north; they can't shoot arrows east without changing everything they do. And again, Bate explains all this in his concise and clear textbook, which was originally written for USAF rocketeers.

Imagine the simple task of adding two numbers as analogous to solving the general guidance problem. If I may write in pidgen computer language for a moment, what we actually build and test looks like

READ X;
READ Y;
PRINT X + Y;

What you propose is closer to

READ X;
READ Y;
IF X = 1 and Y = 1 THEN PRINT 2
ELSE IF X = 1 and Y = 2 THEN PRINT 3
ELSE IF X = 1 and Y = 3 THEN PRINT 4
...

and so forth. In your world the rocketeers panic because they don't know if they've covered the case where X = 23 and Y = -4, so they have to test that one specifically. In the real world the rocketeers don't panic because they provided a generalized solution that covers most if not all cases.

Your inability to understand how aerospace solutions are actually designed and built stems from your lack of qualifications in the field, and leads you to invent "requirements" for testing these systems that are simply nonsensical.

On the other hand, they do not test all of the important and essential functional components of the missile.

You aren't qualified to make that judgment.

Say it is 1959 Loss leader instead of 2009. How would you know that your warhead was OK and would detonate as it should after passing through the atmosphere at unimaginable speeds?

The speeds may be "unimaginable" to a non-engineer, but I assure you this is simply the kind of problem we engineers are tasked with solving routinely. The velocity of a re-entering vehicle follows a deterministic profile. You may not understand it, but we do. Kindly do not burden the experts with projections of your ignorance.

If you really knew the history of Apollo, you'd understand how much of the underlying engineering -- including the test rigs and methods -- were borrowed from ballistic missile technology, including warheads both nuclear and conventional. Apollo built upon knowledge that already existed in the industry -- knowledge you don't know anything about because you aren't properly trained and experienced.

How would you know that your heat shield protected your warhead?

Because you have (a) determined the aerodynamic heating and loading profile using instrument packages, (b) devised methods of duplicating that heating and loading profile on Earth, and (c) detonated test warheads that have been subjected to the duplicated environment.

You say this is insufficient, but you're just handwaving. I asked you to describe exactly how a ground-based test so devised would fail to achieve suitable confidence. You have spent this entire page ignoring that question because your inexpertise leaves you with nothing to do but gesticulate vaguely.
 
http://vimeo.com/32001208

It is a low light camera, but your own eyes would do better than this camera, would be able to see the stars and bright earth as well, depending on circumstances.

It is only a matter of time, that day of infamy.

It is only a matter of time? Why, because you post a really high ISO picture of the Aurora? The picture is taken on the dark side of the Earth, so not sure where the 'bright earth' comes from. I would say, given the position of the ISS, they would be able to see stars if they dimmed the cabin lights long enough. Personally, in all the time I have ever flown on an airplane at night, I don't recall seeing stars out of the window.

Any physician would know about the adaptive workings of the eyes, how come you don't?

http://www.science.ca/askascientist/viewquestion.php?qID=5275
"Perception of stars is fundamentally limited by two factors: the brightness limit at which the retina of the eye sends a significant signal to the brain, and the limitation of the visual system in perceiving contrast of one object embedded in a field of similar but distinct surface brightness."

I would add to that, the interior lighting, position of the Sun (light shining in) and the angle of the window to it, position of the Earth and position of the Moon.

Your quote about infamy reminds me of a quote from a Carry On film. How apt.
 
Cool Tomblvd, why don't you break it down for us.....

Tell us all why you do, or do not think Charles Berry' diagnosis of viral gastroenteritis is correct. We'd also like to know if you agree or disagree with Berry as to whether or not the vaccine the Apollo 8 astronauts were given provided protection against the Hong Kong flu and other strains of influenza as well during the 1968/1969 flu season. Finally, would like to know why it is you think that Borman took seconal a second time and intentionally made himself sick. What is your understanding with respect to Charles Berry's knowing about Borman self administering seconal a second time?

Thanks.....Can't wait to hear your views on all this.


Of all the people on this thread, you are the LAST one to be demanding answers.

My God, even your questions prove you have no training in medicine....
 
My point was that what is requisite for the understanding of Apollo, is not a knowledge of aerospace sciences as Apollo is not about aerospace science. Rather, Apollo is an ever so transparent phony story that seeks to cover military activities with a series of make believe tales about fighter pilots landing spaceships on the moon.

Because the fraud is a bogus story that includes elements referencing the world of medical science, an understanding of medicine is one of the best ways to expose the pretended learned perpetrators for what they are, PHONIES.

This is because one of the fraud perpetrators' favorite ploys/strategies is to "pull rank" on critics and use the argument that because this all occurred in an "aerospace" context, an aerospace background/education is requisite for appreciating the events at their deepest level.

Actually and quite quite obviously, its deepest level is one of FRAUD, one of MAKE BELIEVE. One need not have a degree or special training of any sort to simply read maps, and if one is a critical thinker of average intelligence, one cannot help but come to the conclusion that the Apollo 11 flown LAM-2 Map of Michael Collins is FRAUDULENT BEYOND A DOUBT. This, given its intentional misgridding featuring landing elipse central target coordinates; 00 42' 50" north and 23 42' 28" east instead of the appropriate and accurate 00 43' 53" north and 23 38' 51" east.

Now, that said, my point in bringing up the medical degree business and the perpetrators' vulnerability in this regard is they made an insanely immense judgement error in that case, in that context, by virtue of allowing a medical issue to figure so prominently in one of the stories. So now they are dependent on their medical expert, Charles Berry, in a sense to figure out a way of presenting this thing, the Borman illness thing, in such a way that it doesn't blow up in everyone's face.

Well, that is more or less impossible. It has to blow up in everyone's face as it is so fundamental, such a fundamental medical point. The Borman medical issue has to do with fundamental "problems" if you will Garrison, acute infectious diarrhea, and the question of influenza vaccination efficacy in the context of both seasonal outbreaks and influenza pandemics. This is all very mainstream, basic medicine. Nothing esoteric about it, nothing one can do to finesse this to make it more complicated or difficult than it is . It is very simple and straightforward.

So, were NASA say to hire 2, 12, 20, 200 docs to debate me by myself on national tv with respect to this one issue, APOLLO WOULD IMMEDIATELY BE DEMONSTRATED FRAUDULENT IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION. Of course it would be doctors' opinions first. But any medical docs, whether primary care types, infectious disease types, or gastroenterologists, would hear said debate and view the facts in my favor. It could go no other way. The questions/problems are that fundamental.

Now, it might take a day or two or three to get all of the details out. It might be a fairly long debate because of the need to tell a rather long story about mostly what was NOT done. So perhaps it would go on for several days, mostly due to the need for story telling, presenting NASA's bogus story, just laying it out there as they tell it, as Borman told it. But once over, there would be no question in the minds of those who understand the language of the debate. That would mean that all but a few docs would see things as I do. It is that simple, that straightforward.


So, the point about education is and is not important necessarily. It is not important at all in one sense as anyone can see the LAM-2 Map is fake, no special training needed there. And if the LAM-2 Map is fake, so is all of Apollo 11. The whole Mission is fake, has to be, which it is, no question. The bogus LAM-2 Map is absolute proof positive. No other reason to fake the map except to fake the mission.

Now, that said, special education can be helpful on the other hand. Though not needed in the demonstration of Apollo fraudulence, a medical background is quite useful with respect to the issues of the astronauts not seeing stars/lasers and a solid medical background, formal medical training, is even all the more helpful/useful with respect to the Borman illness issue.

My point in bringing up the medical degree issue in the context of W.D. Clinger's post had to do with my wanting to emphasize that all those technical degrees did not, do not , add up to squat in the context of debating the Apollo fraud. The fraud is a subject to which aerospace science is most decidedly NOT germane. This is indeed the case and ever so ironically so. This rich and boundless irony is one of the reasons I became interested in the Apollo fraud as is also the case for several of my friends. It was/is the depth of this irony, the literary aspect of the irony, beyond poetic really. This has drawn us to Apollo.

For us, debating Apollo is an aesthetic choice. Practically speaking it is of course important that the public be made aware of its having been so profoundly scammed. However, the literary/romantic aspect of the fraud is what keeps my friends and myself going.

I was reading another Apollo fraud thread several months ago wherein a very capable hoax/fraud theorist was defending himself/herself against a handful of detractors. The fraud advocate used the term "for Pete's sake", and a very intelligent official story apologist wrote something like, "what does that mean? Is that a reference to Pete Conrad? some kind of pun?". The fraud advocate had to explain it was a "biblical" reference, the term he/she used. Perhaps he/she was punning, I suspect so, though that was not stated explicitly, naturally not, as that would have undone the intended effect. It would be quite like laughing at one's own jokes.

So Apollo as fraud is DEEP on many levels. To say that the Apollo astronauts are "unintelligent" is not to say that they did not go to school and in school did not do well......

Hope that helps Garrison, it is an important point of mine and many other Apollo fraud advocates, an important point that is seldom discussed.....

So you don't need to be a rocket scientist to detect Apollo as a fraud because it was a fraud?
 
For Apollo to be a fraud you need a lot more than 36 people in on it.

You need the crews of the cargo planes you claimed dumped the manned capsules at the landing sites: 5 men per mission.
You need the MSFN tracking ships that were at the landing sites to monitor re-entry: 10 men.
You need the crews of the ARIA tracking aircraft that worked with the tracking ships: 10 men.
You need the radio and radar operators of the US Navy recovery ships: 10 men.
You need the Spanairds who helped operate the Madrid MSFN station: 10 men.
You need the Australians who helped operate the Honeysuckle Creek MSFN station: 10 men.
You need the Australians who operated the Parkes Radio Observatory: 20 men.
You need the men at Goldstone and all the 9 meter tracking stations: 200 men.
You need the capsule close-out crew who put the astronauts into the capsule: 10 men.
You need the engineers who installed your fantasy Moon equipment: 1000 men.
You need the men who built your fantasy Moon equipment: 10,000 men.

Let me know when this gets too unwieldedly for you.
 
For Apollo to be a fraud you need a lot more than 36 people in on it.


You need the entire Soviet Union - every qualified person in their rocketry, ICBM, SLBM, radio intercept, surveilance, and intelligence programs and all their bosses all the way up to the Chairman of the Party and the President for decades and decades because, according to you, the moon was broadcasting navigational information for years.

You need all of the same people in China incluiding the President and Prime Minister.

You need just close to every single geologist on earth, and certainly every geologist in Building 31, including but not limited to the authors of this paper, this one, this one; and this one.

According to you, Patrick, you also need the cooperation of the Israelis.

You'd need Jay Utah, who has actually been designing and conducting nuclear missile tests as well as spaceflight tests. He'd have to know that the information he needed could only be obtained in the insane ways you've described.

You'd need every navigator and rocket operator in the United States Military, who knew they were using communications from the moon to position themselves.

You'd need LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama. Notice that power changes hands nine times. Power switches parties six times at the level of the President. Power in one or more houses of congress switched additionally in 1998, 2008 and 2010 at least.

Let me know if I left anybody out.
 
You need the entire Soviet Union - every qualified person in their rocketry, ICBM, SLBM, radio intercept, surveilance, and intelligence programs and all their bosses all the way up to the Chairman of the Party and the President for decades and decades because, according to you, the moon was broadcasting navigational information for years.

You need all of the same people in China incluiding the President and Prime Minister.

You need just close to every single geologist on earth, and certainly every geologist in Building 31, including but not limited to the authors of this paper, this one, this one; and this one.

According to you, Patrick, you also need the cooperation of the Israelis.

You'd need Jay Utah, who has actually been designing and conducting nuclear missile tests as well as spaceflight tests. He'd have to know that the information he needed could only be obtained in the insane ways you've described.

You'd need every navigator and rocket operator in the United States Military, who knew they were using communications from the moon to position themselves.

You'd need LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama. Notice that power changes hands nine times. Power switches parties six times at the level of the President. Power in one or more houses of congress switched additionally in 1998, 2008 and 2010 at least.

Let me know if I left anybody out.

It would probably be quicker to list who wouldn't have had to be in on it but you did forget the film crew who produced all that lunar footage, and the engineers who built all of Patrick's alleged miltary hardware.
 
I don't think so Matt, you need lots of dudes to run the fraud....

For Apollo to be a fraud you need a lot more than 36 people in on it.

You need the crews of the cargo planes you claimed dumped the manned capsules at the landing sites: 5 men per mission.
You need the MSFN tracking ships that were at the landing sites to monitor re-entry: 10 men.
You need the crews of the ARIA tracking aircraft that worked with the tracking ships: 10 men.
You need the radio and radar operators of the US Navy recovery ships: 10 men.
You need the Spanairds who helped operate the Madrid MSFN station: 10 men.
You need the Australians who helped operate the Honeysuckle Creek MSFN station: 10 men.
You need the Australians who operated the Parkes Radio Observatory: 20 men.
You need the men at Goldstone and all the 9 meter tracking stations: 200 men.
You need the capsule close-out crew who put the astronauts into the capsule: 10 men.
You need the engineers who installed your fantasy Moon equipment: 1000 men.
You need the men who built your fantasy Moon equipment: 10,000 men.

Let me know when this gets too unwieldedly for you.

I don't think so Matt, you need lots of dudes to run the fraud....But all except a relative handful need to be in on it. I would imagine perhaps a hundred, two hundred people knew, and most of those would have NOT been directly involved as NASA employees.

NASA is a military front, and as such, the best way to keep it functional is to NOT let on any with respect to all of this.

It's all legit in a very meaningful sense matt, get it?????
 
I don't think so Matt, you need lots of dudes to run the fraud....But all except a relative handful need to be in on it. I would imagine perhaps a hundred, two hundred people knew, and most of those would have NOT been directly involved as NASA employees.

NASA is a military front, and as such, the best way to keep it functional is to NOT let on any with respect to all of this.

It's all legit in a very meaningful sense matt, get it?????


So of all the people we've listed in these posts, who definitely was not in on it?
 
It is a low light camera, but your own eyes would do better than this camera...

How so? I can set up a camera with ordinary film in dark nighttime forest and, after a suitable length of exposure (several minutes), have a usable picture of the trees. However, no length of time sitting in the forest with eyes wide open will achieve the similar result. Why? Because the eye do not "accumulate" light like CCD sensors or photochemical film.

Thank you for confirming that ocular physiology and photography are things you know nothing about. Yes, earlier you did admit that you don't "do lighting," in context of photography, but I had no idea how deep your ignorance ran.
 
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