100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

[citizenzen]

So why was the OP uncomfortable? Sounds like you are back peddling.

The concept can make people uncomfortable because it causes us to question the very environment we exist in and largely take for granted. Instead, there's a reflexive dismissive response. I think it's interesting to examine that which most of us accept as "normal".

As for backpedalling, I never agreed with the OP. My initial post merely pointed out that while we definitely connect communism to a country's woes and transgressions, people are generally loathe to apply the same measure to capitalism.

Someone earlier mentioned gulags in communist Russia, but overlooks that the United States imprisons more citizens than any other nation. That's what I was hoping to do, introduce a different perspective into the discussion. I'm not trying to advance the OP's viewpoint. I'm was simply trying to discuss an interesting concept.

I thought that's what forums were for.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

citizenzen,

The gulags were specifically nasty because of the tendency by the Soviet state to send dissidents (and sometimes their families) to hellish conditions in the middle of Siberia, whereas the US imprisonment rate is largely due to overzealousness of the Criminal Justice System. They are apples and oranges.

 

[lomiller]

I'm sorry...but how exactly was WW II with Germany or Japan "by and large the economic environment where these deaths took place"? The war was started by Germany, a country that had already invaded other nations, set up terrible internment camps...and was not in any way a "capitalist" economy?

Both Germany and Japan were capitalist economies.

 

[bikerdruid]

He wouldn't have "brought it to the table" if someone hadn't mentioned the book "Le livre noir du Communisme" in another thread.

He's not trying to have a debate, he's just reacting to something he felt attacked his ideology.

wow....
you are entertaining.

 

[bikerdruid]

Alot of people start threads for no other reason than out of spite.

This is one of them.

see above....

 

[citizenzen]

The gulags were specifically nasty because of the tendency by the Soviet state to send dissidents (and sometimes their families) to hellish conditions in the middle of Siberia, whereas the US imprisonment rate is largely due to overzealousness of the Criminal Justice System. They are apples and oranges.

Sound like they're both fruit to me.

 

[bikerdruid]

very interesting....
people often quote ridiculous numbers for 'deaths caused by communism' and no one questions that.
accuse capitalism of atrocities and people climb out of the woodwork to defend it.
ask the rockefellers how much money they made in ww2.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

people often quote ridiculous numbers for 'deaths caused by communism' and no one questions that.

Communists built the most ridiculously large concentration camp systems in history.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Sound like they're both fruit to me.

Yes, but they're completely different. That was my point. Are you trying to say that the US are morally equivalent to the USSR?

 

[Pardalis]

people often quote ridiculous numbers for 'deaths caused by communism' and no one questions that.

The book "Le livre noir du Communisme" has been out for almost 15 years, and no one as yet challenged the actual evidence it put forward.

 

[bikerdruid]

Communists built the most ridiculously large concentration camp systems in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

The United States of America has an incarceration rate of 743 per 100,000 of national population (as of 2009), the highest in the world.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

very interestingf....
people often quote ridiculous numbers for 'deaths caused by communism' and no one questions that.
accuse capitalism of atrocities and people climb out of the woodwork to defend it.
ask the rockefellers how much money they made in ww2.

Just because the Rockefellers profited from WW2 doesn't mean that they were responsible for every single death.

And how does capitalism cause deaths (other than businessmen being Freeza-level evil)

 

[bikerdruid]

The book "Le livre noir du Communisme" has been out for almost 15 years, and no one as yet challenged the actual evidence it put forward.

what you meant to say is, "none of the capitalists on this forum have challenged the evidence."

 

[citizenzen]

Yes, but they're completely different. That was my point. Are you trying to say that the US are morally equivalent to the USSR?

No. For starters I generally don't assign degrees of morality to nations.

That just seems bizarre to me.

But secondly, it's ironic that someone can point to a country and complain about how terrible they are to incarcerate their people while ignoring that their own country by a large margin incarcerates the most citizens of any nation on this Earth.

The United States: 5% of the worlds population ... 25% of the world's prisoners.

I'm simply advocating for a little awareness and balance.

 

[Arcade22]

very interesting....
people often quote ridiculous numbers for 'deaths caused by communism' and no one questions that.

Actually it's not interesting at all since you are lying. Why are you lying?

accuse capitalism of atrocities and people climb out of the woodwork to defend it.

And you can't even counter other peoples critique.

ask the rockefellers how much money they made in ww2.

Is that all you got?

 

[Pardalis]

what you meant to say is, "none of the capitalists on this forum have challenged the evidence."

We've done that since the beginning, starting with the absurd claim that both World Wars were caused or resulted from capitalism.

That cuts your 100 million figure in half right off the bat.

 

[bikerdruid]

The book "Le livre noir du Communisme" has been out for almost 15 years, and no one as yet challenged the actual evidence it put forward.

what you meant to say is, "none of the capitalists on this forum have challenged the evidence."

We've done that since the beginning, starting with the absurd claim that both World Wars were caused or resulted from capitalism.

That cuts your 100 million figure in half right off the bat.

wow...
perhaps it's a language issue.

 

[Corsair 115]

Both Germany and Japan were capitalist economies.

The Nazi government of Germany exercised an enormous amount of control over what went on as it was necessary given its balance of accounts issues and rearmament plans.

Which I think illustrates the point that the nature of the government in charge of the nation is at least as important, if not more so, as the economic system the country nominally follows.

 

[Pardalis]

One can hardly deny that the hardship and famines caused by the forced collectivization in the former USSR was directly a result of Communist policy.

All you got for WW2 being caused by Capitalism is "the Rockeffellers made money". Pathetic really.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

But secondly, it's ironic that someone can point to a country and complain about how terrible they are to incarcerate their people while ignoring that their own country by a large margin incarcerates the most citizens of any nation on this Earth.

Except, there's a wide degree of difference between an overzealous criminal justice system and a state where political prisoners are interned en masse.