JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[Robert Prey]

Better yet, it's not even a drawing by McClelland. Rather, it's a drawing that first appeared in Six Seconds in Dallas (by Josiah Thompson, published 1967) by an artist commissioned by the author to illustrate McClelland's description of JFK's head wound - based on author interviews with McClelland years after the event.

McClelland's contemporaneous notes say only that JFK suffered a "massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea." He says on page two that JFK's "Cause of death was due to massive brain and head injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple."

Note there is no detail in his original notes (written on the same afternoon of the assassination, left than five hours after he saw JFK's body) about the location of the massive head wound. Any details he has offered since then has the possibility of being influenced and corrupted by talking to others about the case. The others would be of course, other doctors as well as government investigators and critics.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0275b.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0276a.htm

In my opinion, McClelland meant the massive wound in the right temple that is visible in the Z-film and the autopsy photos when he wrote left temple. Others reversed left and right when speaking about that wound as well. (AP photographer James Altgens for one). The body has a wound in the anatomical right temple, but that wound is to Altgen's left as the limo approaches Altgens. I think McClelland did the same thing.

ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD: In testimony at Parkland taken before Arlen Specter on 3-21-64, McClelland described the head wound as, "...I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered...so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out...." (WC--V6:33) Later he said, "...unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts (to save Kennedy's life) were of no avail." (Emphasis added throughout) (WC--V6:34) McClelland made clear that he thought the rear wound in the skull was an exit wound (WC-V6:35,37). McClelland ascribed the cause of death to, "...massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss." (WC--V6:34)

A little more truthfulness and accurate scholarship from you and TomTom would be appreciated.

 

[Tomtomkent]

IS there evidence the photos were faked:
No.

Does the fact they were used persuasive they were faked:
No.

Is there any evidence of more than one shooter:
No.

Is there any evidence that anybody other than LHO took a shot:
No.

Is there evidence LHO took the shots:
Despite what Robert said... YES!

He was seen (and we all know that Robert thinks eyewitnesses are the most important kind of evidence!). He bought the rifle! He was photographed with the rifle! He signed a copy of the photo and gave it to a friend! He handled the rifle on the day of the shooting. He handled the shells. He can be placed in the "snipers nest" with the rifle. He is tied to all shots that can be accounted for. The ONLY shots of the day.

The body is consistent. The phots and films available are consistent. His actions after (killing a police officer and attempting another murder) are consistent.

There is evidence LHO commited the crime.

Robert claims NO, he has never offered any evidence to support it.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I"ve never made the claim that JfK's wounds were altered though they may have been.

How?

"Recreated" could refer to the autopsy fraud. But I don't know and neither do you. Nor have I ever claimed there were no shots from behind.

Nope, you said the Parkland witnesses saw "the evidence" before it was "recreated". The autopsy had not been "created" yet, let alone "recreated". The ONLY evidence they could have seen was the body.

So yes, you DID claim the wounds were "recreated".

 

[Tomtomkent]

ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD: In testimony at Parkland taken before Arlen Specter on 3-21-64, McClelland described the head wound as, "...I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered...so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out...." (WC--V6:33) Later he said, "...unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts (to save Kennedy's life) were of no avail." (Emphasis added throughout) (WC--V6:34) McClelland made clear that he thought the rear wound in the skull was an exit wound (WC-V6:35,37). McClelland ascribed the cause of death to, "...massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss." (WC--V6:34)

A little more truthfulness and accurate scholarship from you and TomTom would be appreciated.

And wheres the material evidence?

 

[HSienzant]

The unsupported claim on this board, is that it was Oswald's pistol that was used to kill Tippit. When questioned as to how that was proven, nobody on this board seemed to know.

Let's try again.

It is not unsupported. Oswald's revolver was linked definitively to the Tippit killing through the shells found at the scene. That is, those shells (found at the scene of the Tippit killing) are ballistically linked to the revolver that was taken off Oswald in the theatre.

Your claim is incorrect.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD: In testimony at Parkland taken before Arlen Specter on 3-21-64, McClelland described the head wound as, "...I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered...so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out...." (WC--V6:33) Later he said, "...unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts (to save Kennedy's life) were of no avail." (Emphasis added throughout) (WC--V6:34) McClelland made clear that he thought the rear wound in the skull was an exit wound (WC-V6:35,37). McClelland ascribed the cause of death to, "...massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss." (WC--V6:34)

A little more truthfulness and accurate scholarship from you and TomTom would be appreciated.

Thank you for quoting that. I emphasized one line I wish you to explain away. Bear in mind JFK was on his back the entire time the doctors treated him, and the doctors did not move the head at any time.

Since that is true, how could they look *down* into the wound unless they were looking at it thru the massive right temple opening we see in the Z-film and the autopsy photos?

Where is the parietal bone? Do you know?
From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_bone
"The parietal bones are bones in the human skull which, when joined together, form the sides and roof of the cranium."
And McClelland says what?
"so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half..."

That sounds a lot like the autopsy photos which show the massive wound in the right temple - in the parietal bone.

Bear in mind as well that at the time he testified, it was already considerably after he had written his notes on 11/22/63, which say there was a gunshot wound of the left temple. There is a massive gunshot wound of the right temple, and I will suggest to you again that McClelland simply made a left-right mistake in his earliest statement.

 

[CurtC]

In my opinion, McClelland meant the massive wound in the right temple that is visible in the Z-film and the autopsy photos when he wrote left temple. Others reversed left and right when speaking about that wound as well. (AP photographer James Altgens for one).

So it's corroborated then! JFK had a gunshot would on the left side of his head, despite what any material evidence says! More than one witness saw it!

 

[Walter Ego]

Better yet, it's not even a drawing by McClelland. Rather, it's a drawing that first appeared in Six Seconds in Dallas (by Josiah Thompson, published 1967) by an artist commissioned by the author to illustrate McClelland's description of JFK's head wound - based on author interviews with McClelland years after the event.

McClelland's contemporaneous notes say only that JFK suffered a "massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea." He says on page two that JFK's "Cause of death was due to massive brain and head injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple."

Note there is no detail in his original notes (written on the same afternoon of the assassination, left than five hours after he saw JFK's body) about the location of the massive head wound. Any details he has offered since then has the possibility of being influenced and corrupted by talking to others about the case. The others would be of course, other doctors as well as government investigators and critics.

McClelland, along with Dr. Crenshaw, is one of Robert's "unimpeachable" Parkland witnesses.

The only Parkland doctors who still believe they saw a wound in the rear of [Kennedy's] head, as well as seeing cerebellum, are Robert McClelland and Charles Crenshaw...

Posner, Case Closed p. 312

All doctors except McClelland and Crenshaw who were actually in the trauma room and who thought they may have seen a rear wound later said they were confused or mistaken. That reduces Robert's "unimpeachable" witnesses who had medical degrees and actually examined JFK to two, both of whom later went on to promote conspiracy theories about the assassination.

Crenshaw co-authored a JFK conspiracy book. Speaking to a group of medical students

[McClelland] explains that too many things don’t add up. Doctors at Parkland reported seeing the president’s body put into a coffin with a blanket over it. But that it somehow got into a body bag by the time it got to Washington. He says he’s from East Texas and has seen enough deer hunting to know a body moves in the direction of the bullet. That the president moved backward because he was shot from the front.

He mentions an odd phone call the operator at the emergency room got when Oswald was in surgery. Someone claiming to be from the White House inquired about Oswald’s condition. He talks about a British documentarian’s theory that three hitmen flew from Corsica to Marseille to Mexico City and drove across the border and up to Dallas to murder the president.

http://www.dmagazine.com/Home/2008/10/24/The_Day_Kennedy_Died.aspx

The “body bag” business comes from the bizarre theory of author David Lifton, who claimed that Kennedy’s body was stolen, mutilated to give the impression that all the shots came from behind, and then delivered to the official autopsy at Bethesda. The business about the Corsican hitmen comes from a 1988 documentary called The Men Who Killed Kennedy. Soon after it first aired on the U.K., the theory was blown out of the water when it was found that all three of the supposed “hit men” had ironclad alibis for the day of the assassination.

From the same article quoted above...

[McClelland] wouldn’t feel confident in his initial assessment until 11 and a half years later, when he and his wife watched an episode of The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. As the couple got ready for bed, Carson introduced his guest, a young, ambitious television host named Geraldo Rivera. Rivera had with him footage of the assassination previously unseen by the public, footage known simply as “the Zapruder film.” Shot by Abraham Zapruder, an immigrant from the Ukraine, the 8-millimeter Kodachrome movie shows the motorcade through the duration of the assassination. As McClelland watched it for the first time, he saw the back of the president’s head blasted out. He saw the president swayed “back and to the left,” a phrase later repeated ad nauseum in Oliver Stone’s JFK. McClelland was convinced he had been standing over an exit wound.

Of course the Z film shows the right front not the back of JFK's head being "blasted out" which kind of makes you wonder about McClelland's powers of observation.

McClelland is also a friend of Dallas resident Robert Groden, a conspiracy huckster who first presented his bootlegged third-generation print of the Z film in 1976 on Rivera's Good Night America show on ABC, the first time the complete film was seen by the general public.

 

[Robert Prey]

Thank you for quoting that. I emphasized one line I wish you to explain away. Bear in mind JFK was on his back the entire time the doctors treated him, and the doctors did not move the head at any time.

Since that is true, how could they look *down* into the wound unless they were looking at it thru the massive right temple opening we see in the Z-film and the autopsy photos?

Where is the parietal bone? Do you know?
From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_bone
"The parietal bones are bones in the human skull which, when joined together, form the sides and roof of the cranium."
And McClelland says what?
"so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half..."

That sounds a lot like the autopsy photos which show the massive wound in the right temple - in the parietal bone.

Bear in mind as well that at the time he testified, it was already considerably after he had written his notes on 11/22/63, which say there was a gunshot wound of the left temple. There is a massive gunshot wound of the right temple, and I will suggest to you again that McClelland simply made a left-right mistake in his earliest statement.

What matters is where the fatal bullet entered and exited. The large blow-out in the back of the head provides the answer.

 

[RoboTimbo]

What matters is where the fatal bullet entered and exited. The large blow-out in the back of the head provides the answer.

A pity you've always scuttled away from pointing it out in the Zapruder film. Will you man up and do that soon?

 

[Walter Ego]

A pity you've always scuttled away from pointing it out in the Zapruder film. Will you man up and do that soon?

To anticipate Robert's reply.

[Robert Mode]The Z film is a blurry fabricated Rorschach test with missing frames that looks like a vagina. {Insert statement about the 30 unimpeachable Parkland witnesses.} [/Robert Mode]

It's getting where you can anticipate anything Robert will have to say about the Z film and Parkland Hospital by cutting and pasting from his previous posts.

The Z film is a rorschach test. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. Perhaps it's a vagina.

The truth of what is seen, or unseen in the Z film is revealed in the 30 or so first hand Parkland witnesses who observed a large blow-out in the back of the President's head.

Zapruder never viewed the back of the President's Head. Neither did you. But the Parkland doctors did.

The Z film is hardly "tangible": evidence. Nor is it fraud proof. The Best Evidence is the condition of the wounds of the fatal shot to the head, observed and described by the doctors and attendants at Parkland.

 

[bynmdsue]

Of course the Z film shows the right front not the back of JFK's head being "blasted out" which kind of makes you wonder about McClelland's powers of observation.

Well, McClelland obviously saw the unaltered Z film. Obviously./sarc

 

[Robert Prey]

Let's try again.

It is not unsupported. Oswald's revolver was linked definitively to the Tippit killing through the shells found at the scene. That is, those shells (found at the scene of the Tippit killing) are ballistically linked to the revolver that was taken off Oswald in the theatre.
Hank

It isn't too often that a murder in broad daylight has the perp emptying shell casings on the scene, but it's a routine procedure when corrupt cops are in the process of framing a Patsy. Moreover, the bullets found in Tippit were never positively linked to the alleged weapon.
Next irrelevant question.

 

[Robrob]

It isn't too often that a murder in broad daylight has the perp emptying shell casings on the scene, but it's a routine procedure when corrupt cops are in the process of framing a Patsy. Moreover, the bullets found in Tippit were never positively linked to the alleged weapon.
Next irrelevant question.

You are familiar with the concept of "reloading?"

 

[Tomtomkent]

What matters is where the fatal bullet entered and exited. The large blow-out in the back of the head provides the answer.

The one you have no material evidence for? The one you claimed to have proven by showing a cropped and rotated photo of an exit wound on the temple?


Is that the one that provides the answer? By not existing?

 

[Robert Prey]

Well, McClelland obviously saw the unaltered Z film. Obviously./sarc

McClelleand's observations were independently corroborated by all the other medical personnel on the scene at Parkland.

 

[Tomtomkent]

McClelleand's observations were independently corroborated by all the other medical personnel on the scene at Parkland.

And debunked by:
The thousands of other people who saw the Z film and cant see the ejecta from the back of the head.

And by the poloroid photo.

And by the autopsy.

And by the body.

And by the photographs you yourself submitted as evidence on this thread.

And by the rest of the photographs in that series.

Gosh,those 20? 30? 40? Statements with no material evidence are more honest than everything else because...? Oh. They aren't. They as faliable as any other human.

 

[Tomtomkent]

McClelland, along with Dr. Crenshaw, is one of Robert's "unimpeachable" Parkland witnesses.



All doctors except McClelland and Crenshaw who were actually in the trauma room and who thought they may have seen a rear wound later said they were confused or mistaken. That reduces Robert's "unimpeachable" witnesses who had medical degrees and actually examined JFK to two, both of whom later went on to promote conspiracy theories about the assassination.

Crenshaw co-authored a JFK conspiracy book. Speaking to a group of medical students



The “body bag” business comes from the bizarre theory of author David Lifton, who claimed that Kennedy’s body was stolen, mutilated to give the impression that all the shots came from behind, and then delivered to the official autopsy at Bethesda. The business about the Corsican hitmen comes from a 1988 documentary called The Men Who Killed Kennedy. Soon after it first aired on the U.K., the theory was blown out of the water when it was found that all three of the supposed “hit men” had ironclad alibis for the day of the assassination.

From the same article quoted above...



Of course the Z film shows the right front not the back of JFK's head being "blasted out" which kind of makes you wonder about McClelland's powers of observation.

McClelland is also a friend of Dallas resident Robert Groden, a conspiracy huckster who first presented his bootlegged third-generation print of the Z film in 1976 on Rivera's Good Night America show on ABC, the first time the complete film was seen by the general public.

Robert should corroborate this himself, and point to the frames of the film where you can see the back of JFKs head blasted out...

 

[Rich_C]

It isn't too often that a murder in broad daylight has the perp emptying shell casings on the scene, but it's a routine procedure when corrupt cops are in the process of framing a Patsy. Moreover, the bullets found in Tippit were never positively linked to the alleged weapon.
Next irrelevant question.

So your answer is that Oswald couldn't possibly be that stupid? And then you lie about the bullets not being linked to the weapon. LOL.

 

[RoboTimbo]

McClelleand's observations were independently corroborated by all the other medical personnel on the scene at Parkland.

What about the millions of witnesses to the Zapruder film? Bang!