Split Thread Is communism a viable alternative economic system these days?

[Bad Lieutenant]

Yeah, why do you insist on having a personal computer?

I've actually got 3 computers, a mobile phone,a digital radio, a mp3 player...why do you think these things could not exist under a socialist system?

Wasn't the internet invented under a Labour government (basically a straw man, but I couldn't resist)

And why bother with this economic growth? It's so pointless to fund stuff like cures for cancer and ALS. Thinking about it, what's the use of an average lifespan at 30-40 years?

Perhaps more money would be spent on medical research under a socialist system, what with everybody being a bit more neighbourly toward eachother. Certainly drug companies mightn't be allowed/motivated to patent and withhold advances in medicine in order to secure future exclusive revenue streams, as currently occurs, to the misery of countless thousands.

It's difficult (if not impossible) to cut through all the propaganda about a place like North Korea, and I'm sure it's deeply failed in many ways, however the WHO recently investigated it's healthcare system, and I'm reluctant to doubt the veracity of their report, whatever wikipedia might say:

In April 2010 the World Health Organisation (WHO) director-general Margaret Chan visited the nation, and claimed that its health system was the “envy of the developing world,” and that there were sufficient numbers of doctors and nurses[3].

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

Yeah, that was precisely the difference between the quality of life in the West and in the Warsaw Pact countries: paucity of 15-diamond-encrusted solid gold llamas in the East.

That was then; this is now.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Based on my one and only visit to the former USSR (in 1982 or 1983), they seemed to do full employment by making three guys dig a hole in the ground using one shovel and one wheelbarrow.

And no, I'm not kidding. According to the old Soviet-era joke, communist economy is based on pretending -- people pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay them.

Considering that the USSR failed for economic reasons, ...

Communism has proven itself to be an epic failure every time that it has been attempted.

It has already answered for itself whether or not it is a viable economic system.



Capitalism, as a human invented concept, has its flaws just like any other human created system does, but it is inevitable for human created systems to evolve or be replaced as the needs, knowledge, and resources of society changes.

I think it is inevitable that we will have a new or evolved economic system in 100 years, and another one 100 years after that.

Communism however is almost fully assured through its continued failures to not be that new system.

 

[Mark6]

Yes, but in the Eastern Bloc, where trade was more tightly controlled, socialism failed because of "The Grass Is Greener" materialism. Some people wept because there were suddenly homeless people on the streets. Some people cackled because they could afford cuban cigars and they always wanted 15 diamond encrusted solid gold lamas.

This passage makes no sense. Trade more tightly controlled than where? People wept/cackled when?

 

[timhau]

I've actually got 3 computers, a mobile phone,a digital radio, a mp3 player...why do you think these things could not exist under a socialist system?

The Eastern Bloc governments weren't real big on consumer goods. Having to wait years to get your own Moskvich Elite (1970s and 1980s Soviet-made automobile featuring 1950s technology) was standard -- among those lucky enough to be able to get one. The supply of just about anything -- shoes, raincoats, electronics, car tyres -- could dry up at any time with no advance warning.

Serious question: Have you ever talked to or even met anyone who lived the life of an ordinary citizen in an Eastern Bloc country before the fall of the USSR?

 

[Mark6]

I've actually got 3 computers, a mobile phone,a digital radio, a mp3 player...why do you think these things could not exist under a socialist system?

I suggest looking at India prior to mid-90's (when it ditched socialism), and after.

Socialism is not conducive to innovation, or more accurately, to putting innovation to work. All things you listed involve integrated circuits. When integrated circuit was invented, it made vacuum tubes worthless. Under capitalist system all factories making vacuum tubes closed, and after some wrenching readjustments electronic industry switched to integrated circuits. Under socialist system governments were obligated to keep obsolete industry running and employed.

Socialism AND keeping up with technical innovation may in theory be possible, but it requires the skill at manipulating nation-scale resources (especially human resources) nobody successfully demonstrated yet.

[Edited] Re previous post by timhau: I was born in USSR and lived there until age of 14. I am well familiar with what you are talking about.

 

[Pardalis]

Communism has proven itself to be an epic failure every time that it has been attempted.

It has already answered for itself whether or not it is a viable economic system.

Woah woah there, don't go too fast, some people here are still new to this information.

It takes a long time to sink in.

 

[Mark6]

That's not full employment, that's over-employment. 16 hour weeks - didn't you read the thread? For one thing, improvements in information technology should lead to a system where supply actually = demand

I'd like to live in such system actually. However, balancing tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of just-in-time supply chains which influence each other is a chaos theory problem which no computers can yet solve. And that without accounting for corruption, theft, natural disasters, etc.

 

[Stout]

Socialism is not conducive to innovation, or more accurately, to putting innovation to work. All things you listed involve integrated circuits. When integrated circuit was invented, it made vacuum tubes worthless. Under capitalist system all factories making vacuum tubes closed, and after some wrenching readjustments electronic industry switched to integrated circuits. Under socialist system governments were obligated to keep obsolete industry running and employed.

Yes, so says my buddy who "escaped" Romania in the 1980's He was an engineer and claiming that all the factories he worked in were state of the art...for 1930. Upon his arrival to Canada he found his engineering degree pretty much worthless and only managed to trade it for first year mechanical engineering at a local university.

He also used to talk about how everybody had a job. When pressed for details, his response was "You either go to work, or you go to jail"

So what type of communism are we talking about here ? The kinda sorta looks good on paper but never been implemented anywhere in the world type, or the type that demands the communist elites build wall to keep the proletariat from fleeing to greener pastures ?

I never heard about anybody risking their life scaling the Berlin wall to go from west to east, or sailing a crappy homemade boat to Cuba.

 

[Mark6]

It's difficult (if not impossible) to cut through all the propaganda about a place like North Korea, and I'm sure it's deeply failed in many ways, however the WHO recently investigated it's healthcare system, and I'm reluctant to doubt the veracity of their report, whatever wikipedia might say

You did not provide links, so I googled for it. Here is 2010 WHO report.

Now based on what I have seen, I can tell you they have [a health care system] that most other developing countries would envy.

For example, DPRK has no lack of doctors and nurses, as we have seen in other developing countries where most of their doctors have migrated to other places. But DPRK has enough doctors and nurses, they have a very elaborate health infrastructure, starting from the central to the provincial to the district level….

People in the country do not have to worry about a lack of financial resources to access care….

walking is quite well observed in that country, and I suggest that is why I didn’t see many obese people.

Amnesty International does not agree with it, to put it mildly.

Interviews with North Koreans depict a country that professes to have a universal (free) health care system but in reality struggles to provide even the most basic service to the population. Health facilities are rundown and operate with frequent power cuts and no heat. Medical personnel often do not receive salaries, and many hospitals function without medicines and other essentials. As doctors have begun charging for their services, which is illegal under North Korea’s universal health care system, the poor cannot access full medical care, especially medicines and surgery

However, far from being embarrassed, WHO seems ready to double down on their gaffe. When Amnesty issued their report, WHO spokesman Paul Garwood criticized the Amnesty report as outdated and unscientific, being based on comments from "people who aren’t in the country."

Imagine that. North Korean government tightly monitors and controls access to its citizens by NGOs and foreign media and has a habit of sentencing to labor camps those citizens who criticize its policies. I wonder why Amnesty had to rely on testimonials by people who had managed to escape it.

 

[Stout]

Imagine that. North Korean government tightly monitors and controls access to its citizens by NGOs and foreign media and has a habit of sentencing to labor camps those citizens who criticize its policies. I wonder why Amnesty had to rely on testimonials by people who had managed to escape it.

A buddy of mine just finished reading a book on North Korea and can't stop talking about the place. As a for instance the book was filled with examples of propaganda meant to show the western world just how awesome the place was.

Here's an example of a fake town

The book talks about fake grocery stores with windows full of display food yet nothing for sale behind the glass and details a massive highway, built entirely by hand yet cites that there's no cars to actually drive on it.

I'd be highly suspect of any reports suggesting that NK "have [a health care system] that most other developing countries would envy." and suggest the reporter had been shown what the NK government wanted her to see.

 

[Mark6]

USSR had same thing. Show schools, show stores (within walking distance from hotels where foreigners stayed), etc. Heck, I know about a tourist who thought he was wise to such tricks, and asked to see a kindegarden -- not one his hosts wanted him to see, but one he randomly picked from the phone book.

They changed the number on show kindergarden's door.

I actually knew people involved in that.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

Serious question: Have you ever talked to or even met anyone who lived the life of an ordinary citizen in an Eastern Bloc country before the fall of the USSR?

My drinking buddy and co-hostel resident is a 52 year old Ukranian called Pjotrs (Peter). He was also ex USSR navy special forces (electronic engineer). He says "the grass looked greener" but actually capitalism has a lot of problems, like unemployment. It's all true but /appeal to authority nevertheless.

 

[Mark6]

He says "the grass looked greener" but actually capitalism has a lot of problems, like unemployment.

Did anyone here claim otherwise? Question is, whose problems are least-bad.

 

[Stout]

USSR had same thing. Show schools, show stores (within walking distance from hotels where foreigners stayed), etc. Heck, I know about a tourist who thought he was wise to such tricks, and asked to see a kindegarden -- not one his hosts wanted him to see, but one he randomly picked from the phone book.

They changed the number on show kindergarden's door.

I actually knew people involved in that.

One has to wonder why they'd feel the need for such a thing. I considered a trip to the USSR back in the mid eighties and found it a rather daunting prospect. It's possible to visit NK as a tourist today but the restrictions on such a trip mirror the restrictions I encountered when thinking about having a look at the motherland.

As an aside, for some reason American are restricted to their own tours of NK while everyone else is free to mingle with people from other countries on the trips for non-Americans.

 

[kingstuart]

My drinking buddy and co-hostel resident is a 52 year old Ukranian called Pjotrs (Peter). He was also ex USSR navy special forces (electronic engineer). He says "the grass looked greener" but actually capitalism has a lot of problems, like unemployment. It's all true but /appeal to authority nevertheless.

Are you seriously suggesting socialism as a way forward or are you creating discussion?

Are there any countries that could be used as an example of what socialism can achieve? Or any that have functioned for long periods while still allowing people to vote?

 

[Virus]

India tried central planning. Didn't work.

 

[kingstuart]

India tried central planning. Didn't work.

I've no problem with some central planning i.e. the NHS.

 

[bikerdruid]

Are you seriously suggesting socialism as a way forward or are you creating discussion?

Are there any countries that could be used as an example of what socialism can achieve? Or any that have functioned for long periods while still allowing people to vote?

dude....half of europe has essentially socialist governments.

 

[Virus]

dude....half of europe has essentially socialist governments.

Eastern Europe.