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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Correction..........

You are missing everyone's point here Jay, both my point and your pal LATON'S point, not to mention some of the others, sorry 'bout that....

Both the Apollo Official Narrative map expert weighing in here, Laton, and I agree absolutely that the photos being discussed, Lunar Orbiter II 2085 and AS-37-5447HR, are NOT NOT NOT orthorectified. I gave the reason as above. 2085 and 2088 are not spatially identical with resect to common landmark relationships/distances between easily identified points of interest. Were they orthorectified they would be spatially identical as could be demonstrated by way of the measurement test previously referenced and discussed in detail per my previous posts..

As Lunar Orbiter II 2085 and AS-37-5447HD ARE SPATIAL PERSPECTIVE IDENTICAL for the reasons previously discussed, one may conclude the images, 2085 of the Lunar Orbiter II series and AS-37-5447 of the Apollo 11 forgery series, are indeed one and the same image. Both come from the 2085 shot taken November 1969. As such, the Apollo 11 Mission is proven fraudulent. The FORGED AS-37-5447 is but one more piece of concrete evidence one may lay at NASA's phony doorstep....

Wish they'd shut that dump down........

Just above it reads, "Both come from the 2085 shot taken November 1969"

That should read "November 1966".
 
The images are most decidedly NOT orthorectified....And inded this very feature of non-orthorectification is a feature that helps in proving my point.

Lunar Orbiter II images as referenced above; 2085 and 2088, show distances between landmarks such as craters which are NOT THE SAME and so by definition, the images are not orthorectified. Were these Lunar Orbiter II images orthorectified then in that case, the measurements made between various landmarks would be equal/identical as measured on both of them, 2085 and 2088.

So we have a Lunar Orbiter II image from Nobvember 1966, 2085, which is not orthorectified AND its spatial perspective is IDENTICAL to that of AS-37-5447HD(1969 allegedly taken from the Eagle), egro AS-37-5447 IS LIKEWISE NOT ORTHORECTIFIED AND INDEED IS THE VERY SAME IMAGE AS LUNAR ORBITER II 2085 FOR REASONS PREVIOUSLY MENTION.

AS-37-5447HD(1969 ALLEGED) WE MAY CONFIDENTLY CONCLUDE IS THE SAME IMAGE AS LUNAR ORBITER II 2085(1966) AND IS VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY FRAUDULENT.....

Is this a new fallacy, argumentum ad adjectivum?
 
As Lunar Orbiter II 2085 and AS-37-5447HD ARE SPATIAL PERSPECTIVE IDENTICAL for the reasons previously discussed, one may conclude the images, 2085 of the Lunar Orbiter II series and AS-37-5447 of the Apollo 11 forgery series, are indeed one and the same image.


Again I ask you, why are you assuming the Lunar Orbiter photos are authentic? You have to prove the Lunar Orbiter photos are authentic before you can prove the Apollo photo is a fraud.
 
At the time of Powered Descent Initiation per the Mission Report Table 5-III, the Eagle was according to NASA tracking at 1.037 degrees north(best estimate trajectory). The Lunar Orbiter, again per the website reference above was tracking at 0.80 north, 3.8 miles to the south of the Eagle's alleged tracking position.


"tracking at 0.80 north"?

Oh, boy. I can see more of Patrick's ignorance of orbital mechanics bubbling up to the surface of his pot o' wrong.

By using the word "tracking" he is telling us the spacecraft traveled along that latitude. That is not how orbits work.

Table 5-III gives the latitude and longitude of PDI, not separation, so Patrick cannot use that latitude because if at any time a spacecraft's latitude is not 0°, then the spacecraft is in an inclined orbit, and its latitude will constantly be changing along a sine curve.

I do not yet know what the Eagle's alleged longitude was when it allegedly took the bogus AS-37-5447HD, but we already have adequate information to identify the shot as forged and made from Lunar Orbiter II 2085 as the spatial perspectives are identical per previous analysis.


Such heady conclusions from such incomplete research!

The latitude and longitude was 0.5° N and 23.5° E per the LPI.
 
You are missing everyone's point here Jay, both my point and your pal LATON'S point, not to mention some of the others, sorry 'bout that...

No, I'm not missing the point. If Laton thinks I'm missing his, let him object. You don't speak for him, or for anyone else in this thread.

His point and mine is that your method only produces usable results if you have corrected for everything else that might cause error. His way of saying that is to require a certain form of rectification, which would identify and eliminate them mathematically. My way of saying it is to require you to perform an error analysis on your method.

Both the Apollo Official Narrative map expert weighing in here, Laton, and I agree absolutely that the photos being discussed, Lunar Orbiter II 2085 and AS-37-5447HR, are NOT NOT NOT orthorectified.

That is correct. They are not orthorectified. That's why your method fails. Duh.

Yes, I realize that orthorectified data would eliminate camera tilt, and camera tilt is what you're trying to measure. The point is that there are other sources of variance in your data besides camera tilt. Measuring the combination of all of them and calling the difference (or lack of it) camera tilt (or the absence of it) is naive. Measuring distances in the image plane has any sort of meaning only when you take steps to rectify it.

If you want to measure the effects only of camera tilt, you must partially rectify the image to eliminate all the other effects, such as lens distortion. Identifying, characterizing, and quantifying those effects is the error analysis I mentioned. You can't just measure the "raw image" and expect to be able to attribute all the variance you see to just the one effect that interests you.

Were they orthorectified they would be spatially identical...

You're missing the point. The point is that only in properly rectified photographs can you simply measure linear distances in the image plane and have that mean anything at all. Without it you have compounding and anti-compounding effects that leave too many degrees of freedom to be able to conclude that variance in the control network must be attributed to one of many causes, or conversely that an absence of error in the control network means no effect from some cause such as camera tilt.

As Lunar Orbiter II 2085 and AS-37-5447HD ARE SPATIAL PERSPECTIVE IDENTICAL...

No. You never presented any data, just conclusions. When others attempted to replicate your process (flawed as it was), they came up with completely different results than you. And then under pressure you admitted that your own data were inconclusive.

In fact you can't point to anything in those photos that is the same. Your control network is different. The phase angle is different. The detail is different. The chroma information is different. The imaging by-products are different. And in fact the means you say were used to produce the image are in the one case vague and anachronistic, and in the other case photographically incompatible.

You're reduced to a laundry list of speculative processes you say were applied to turn one image into the other, forgetting along the way that your claim was that they were identical, not that one could be converted to the other. You can put a tutu and lipstick on a pig, but it ain't no ballerina.
 
Here are some numbers.....

And here you skip over any discussion of the lenses, which are not required to show identical distortion, and replace that understanding with an assumption of identical plane projection.

Your method ALSO fails to account for the very thing orthoprojection corrects.




I have and they don't.

The difference between pairs of measurements taken in different areas of the frame is magnitudes greater than any possible error in the measurement.

You say any pair is identical? You are either incompetent or lying.

The same statement applies to the difference within the specified members of the Orbiter series; due to the flaws of your method, different values are reached for different landmark pairs -- again depending on where within the picture frame those pairs appear.

Your method is deeply flawed. If applied rigorously it might reveal complexity beyond what you have recognized, but your application is the sheerest cherry-picking of favorable data and is deeply dishonest.


Here are some numbers.....

Last evening I looked over a couple prints I have of of Lunar Orbiter II 2085(2085) and AS-37-5447HD(5447). 2085 measured 12.2 cm across at the top/bottom edges and 14.2 cm along the verticals. 5447 measured 24.9 cm top/bottom and 17.8 cm along the verticals.

I took three measurements of distances between landmarks on 2085 that were more or less horizontally separated(top, middle and bottom of the image) and divided those numbers by the distances separating the same pairs of landmarks on 5447 and got as my results;

1.11, 1.11, and 1.13

I did the same for 2 vertical measurements and got;

1.15, 1.08

They are fairly close I'd say. My wife did this for many many landmark pairs and she came up with 1.105 fairly consistently.

I am not going to stress over this point, nor press it to any appreciable degree. It is rather remarkable I think and may mean quite a bit. Then again, perhaps not. I should do this several more times and check my own numbers. It's quite possible I have made mistakes in my calculations. They were done fairly carefully , but with computers, printers, rulers, eyeballs and what not, there is indeed lots of room for error to be introduced That said, and regardless, there is so very much fraud and so little little little time....I'll let this one go for now and move on.....

It is important to keep in mind that the LAM-2 map has already been proven inaccurate and therefore fraudulent given its intentional misgridding and THAT!!! is not a point in dispute.......

I have been reading quite a bit about the origins and developments of the star sighting systems that were and are used in ICBM guidance beginning in the 1960s. This has great relevance with regard to the Apollo Fraud as I'll demonstrate to the horror of all "Lost Bird" thread fans with the courage to take a look at this particularly ugly aspect of the space ruse......

Stay tuned to "Lost Bird" and brace yourselves for these particularly disturbing revelations.........
 
...Patrick...what evidence would it take to convince you that you are wrong??

It's a rational, reasonable question, and I expect a rational, reasonable answer, Patrick.

Are you up for that, or will you just "dodge" again?

Why are you taking so long to answer, Patrick?
 
I am not going to stress over this point, nor press it to any appreciable degree. It is rather remarkable I think and may mean quite a bit. Then again, perhaps not. I should do this several more times and check my own numbers. It's quite possible I have made mistakes in my calculations. They were done fairly carefully , but with computers, printers, rulers, eyeballs and what not, there is indeed lots of room for error to be introduced


Why is it so difficult for you to say: "I tried to make a point about photographs. I realize now that I lacked sufficient understanding of all the nuances of photoanalysis. I've been unable to back up my initial statements with evidence. I was wrong to declare the matter decided."

Then you could move on to things like: "I said that the transcript showed the astronauts had skipped the step of informing NASA of their coordinates. I did not understand that the checklist did not have to be verbalized aloud. It is clear that the checklist was complied with when Aldrin confirmed that NASA had received telemetry from the computer. I was wrong to declare otherwise."

Or something fun like this: "I may have made is seem like I believed substantially all moon rocks were collected from meteorites. I know now that those meteor rocks are easily distinguished by geologists from pure moon rocks. Those pure samples must have been collected on the moon. I was wrong to imply otherwise."

Why can't you acknowledge the weaknesses in your arguments?

Why must it be all hand waving and topic changing?
 
Why is it so difficult for you to say: "I tried to make a point about photographs. I realize now that I lacked sufficient understanding of all the nuances of photoanalysis. I've been unable to back up my initial statements with evidence. I was wrong to declare the matter decided."

The one thing a hoax believer can not do is admit error, that is why I asked "what evidence would it take to convince you that you are wrong"....because the answer is NO EVIDENCE COULD CONVINCE HIM, and he doesn't want to admit that. He knows if he admits that, then there is no reason for further discussion, and he would lose his "audience".

...and that's what he wants more than anything...an audience.
 
Here are some numbers...

...divorced from any meaningful context.

Last evening I looked over a couple prints I have of of Lunar Orbiter II 2085(2085) and AS-37-5447HD(5447)...

So you printed them out. That adds your printer to the list of sources of error.

I took three measurements of distances between landmarks...

May we please see which landmarks you used?

1.11, 1.11, and 1.13

Units?

They are fairly close I'd say.

Well, I don't say. Prove to me that you have managed the error accordingly.

I am not going to stress over this point, nor press it to any appreciable degree.

I'm not going to stress over it, but I am most certainly going to press it to the degree required to convince you that you have absolutely no credibility here as someone who has ever done any work in any field where correctness matters. You're no doctor, scientist, or engineer. In fact, I doubt whether you've even had a college-level science class.

At the beginning of this week you said you "didn't do photos." Now, barely a week later, you're trying to tell people with professional credentials and experience that they're wrong and that your naive floundering is right. Do you have any idea how arrogant that is? I told you before that my photo analysis has been covered in Science -- probably the most prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal in the English language. Do you really think your week's worth of frantic Googling and "common sense" pretension rises to a comparable level of competence?

...there is indeed lots of room for error to be introduced That said, and regardless, there is so very much fraud...

Delusion noted. You casually brush aside the fact that you've committed egregious errors of method and engaged in a long-standing pattern of sloppy and uninformed work. Yet you maintain that -- somehow -- you are still correct and Apollo must be fraudulent. I have to ask whom you think you're fooling?

I'll let this one go for now and move on...

Let me underscore Loss Leader's question to you: why is it so hard for you to concede any sort of error? It's clear that, from time to time, you see how badly wrong you are. Do you realize how obvious your error is to everyone else? Do you realize how insecure and deceptive you appear when you try to save face like this?

If you want people to listen to you, you need to let them know honestly that you can be swayed by evidence. You instead display stubborn ideological belief. That is inimical to science, and ensures that no one but the very lazy and gullible will subscribe to your theory.

It is important to keep in mind that the LAM-2 map has already been proven inaccurate...

No. It is important to keep in mind that your attempts to discredit LAM-2 have fallen comically flat.

...and therefore fraudulent given its intentional misgridding and THAT!!! is not a point in dispute...

Nonsense! It was disputed first by me, and then later in more detail by Laton. You just ignored it. And I believe you ignored it intentionally: you quoted the post and then wrote a lengthy harangue on an entirely different topic. Egregious sidestepping is not equivalent to strength.

I have been reading quite a bit about the origins and developments of the star sighting systems that were and are used in ICBM guidance beginning in the 1960s.

And hereby you've bounced violently off of another clear refutation and have changed the subject to distract from your gross incompetence.

Stay tuned to "Lost Bird" and brace yourselves for these particularly disturbing revelations.........

The only revelations this thread has produced is the alarming extent to which you're willing to wrap clumsily made-up stuff in a package of astonishing puerility. And yes, it's disturbing: you expect us to believe you're a 54-year-old physician writing these posts. I'm amazed at how one set of arguments can be so arrogantly wrong.
 
To help Patrick out, I am going to present not one, not two but four irrefutable arguments that we cannot ever know that man walked on the moon:

1. A sufficiently advanced alien race may have recently created all of humanity on the earth as we are about ten minutes ago, with memories and all physical evidence in tact. There is no way to disprove this hypothesis.

2. You, whomever is reading this, are the only person alive in the universe. A sophisticated simulation is being run to keep you sane while the computer searches for a way to screw your head back onto your body.

3. God has created evidence of a moon landing to test our faith, including creating soulless zombies and whatever else it took to perform a successful test.

4. Six nights ago, you were in a horrible car crash and are dreaming this entire thing. It seems coherent and constant, but when you wake up you'll see it's just a jumbled, meaningless dream.
 
Missile Guidance and star charts and Apollo Fraud.....

I just finished reading Donald MacKenzie's INVENTING ACCURACY(A HISTORICAL SOCIOLOGY OF NUCLEAR MISSILE GUIDANCE), MIT Press 1990.

The book is fabulous, easy to read, and this, not due to any lack of depth or watering down. The book is easy to read because it is written so well. I wish I had more time to write this morning about the book, but as such is not the case, I'll at least introduce the subject of ICBM guidance concerns as they relate to the Apollo fraud by pointing out that "ballistic missile stellar-inertial guidance" was first of all not a Draper thing. Polaris' guidance by Draper was ALL INERTIAL, an all inertial so called "black box" or self contained affair. No need for the guidance mechanism to look inside or out once set up.

Once stellar-inertial guidance was bought into such that systems were being looked at in earnest(mid 1960s), it was realized that in the context of the UNISTAR model which had to do with an ICBM's sighting a single star en route to its target and so improving accuracy, ensuring that the availability of even a near-optimum single star would be sightable by the system required access to a large computerized star map which did not exist at the time.

Of course the Apollo ships were alleged to have flown by way of stellar-inertial guidance through cislunar space, a region also never employed as a vantage for the development of detailed computerized star charts. What would any given scope see from cislunar space? No one really knew much at all, least of all anything as regards details given the equipment the Apollo ships were to carry; scanning scope and 28 power sextant. For Apollo guidance, several dozen stars were "memorized" by the computer and then supposedly found by the astronauts with help of the computer and so the inertial platform was aligned on the appropriate occasions. What baloney that is.......

Such a scenario for actually sighting stars and aligning a platform in 1968(Apollo 8) was simply not viable at the time. Draper was a dyed in the wool gyro enthusiast and stated in an interview, "if you have a good enough gyro, you wouldn't need a star tracker". Draper thought putting a stellar sensor in a Polaris ICBM inertial system was like applying a "band-aid" to something that did not need one.

As of the late 60s, there was no functional star sighting equipped inertial guidance system for Polaris, or for ANY ICBM American or Russian for that matter. The US Fleet Ballistic Missile subs continued to employ versions of Draper's Instrumentation Lab's Mk systems in the late 60s.

So sure a stellar-intertial guidance system was built for the Apollo ships that were pretending to carry men to the moon. But certainly the deployment of these systems in the craft was not a functional deployment. There were no supra-atmospheric/cislunar star charts available detailing relationships so in the parlance of the military researchers "near-optimal" stars could reliably and consistently be sighted. There is no way astronauts would be able to reliably and constantly discern one star from the next whether presented with a paucity of stars or an abundance.

Recall when Neil Armstrong answered Patrick Moore's question about stars at the Apollo 11 post flight press conference, Armstrong said he could NOT recall what constellations/stars were seen when the moon eclipsed the sun and the constellations were claimed to have been for the FIRST TIME visible after 200,000 plus miles of travel. WHAT A BUNCH OF TRANSPARENT HOKUM THAT IS, AS TRANSPARENT AS THE STARLESS AND SUBSTANCELESS SPACE OF THE BOGUS AND EVER SO FRAUDULENT APOLLO 11 TRIO OF PRETENDERS. Were that moment real, the moon eclipsing the sun, they all would have remembered what constellations they saw. A moment of supreme drama, traveling 240,000 miles to the moon and you have not seen any stars in any appreciable sense with the naked eye and you are NOT going to notice? BULL!!!! BULL!!!! BULL!!!! Excuse me while I giggle my little rump off......and write "bull" again with exclamation points.... BULL!!!!!!

They did not even have functional stellar guidance for earth "orbiting" missiles at the time of Apollo 8, 11, 12 and so on. NONE!!!!!! Of course they wouldn't shoot three guys into space in 1968 (Apollo 8) HOPING they would see the right stars with that hokey equipment with it never having been tested as the military weapons researchers tested the unmanned ICBM systems over and over and over and OVER!!!!! per the book on guidance I referenced above to be sure these systems actually saw stars from the vantages through which they flew. And remember, even if they can navigate by way of MSFN monitoring and earth based direction, they HAVE TO BE ABLE TO ACCURATELY SIGHT STARS IN CISLUNAR SPACE TO ALIGHN THE PLATFORM. THERE IS ZERO TOLERANCE FOR ERROR, AND THE FACT THEY SENT THIS THING, APOLLO 8, INTO SPACE WITHOUT AN UNMANNED TEST PROVES THE ENTIRE APOLLO PROGRAM FAKE IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. NONE NONE NONE NONE.......

They are going to throw 3 guys in this silly tin can with a dime store star chart, under powered computer, sextant/scanning scope and expect them to find the "correct stars"? The Russians and Americans had trouble doing this with their unmanned ICBMs IN EARTH ORBIT!!!!! Do you honestly think they would let Apollo 8 go do it in cislunar space and risk lives without testing the system. THIS STORY IS A JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE. Do I need to repeat that one time for emphasis? JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Apollo were real, UNMANNED star sighting probes would have flown to the moon first to check and be sure this bogus contraption of Draper's worked in cislunar space. Even he, Draper did not believe in stellar-inertial guidance, for his own reasons, and these reason of course did not apply in the case of Apollo as stellar-inertial guidance was essential given the need for platform realignment on a 500,000 mile pretended journey.

Of course Draper wasn't in on the fix. His lab built the best system that it could. But it was an untested system when Apollo 8 went up and a system not backed by the necessary detailed and accurate cislunar star charts. The sky looks different from cislunar space, and different depending on equipment employed. Think of looking at the sky from the north and south sides of our equator, with different equipment employed on each side, with different atmospheric conditions on each side. Ever been in cislunar space with your telescope looking here and there under different conditions/circumstances? Neither have I. Neither has Michael Collins the phony baloney joke of a nitwit.

It makes me so mad to think we are treated with such contempt that they think we honestly would believe this dishonest hokum..

We know this to be all FAKE as the ship's computer, the charting system would need to know what to look for in advance. THIS IS TRUE FOR ANY STELLAR-INERTIAL GUIDANCE SYSTEM BEING DEVELOPED. Were Apollo 8 real, the ACT threesome NOT would have come down with something a little more serious than a cases of nausea, dizziness and diarrhea.

FAKE!!!!!!!!

One more big fat time for emphasis... FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
It is important to keep in mind that the LAM-2 map has already been proven inaccurate
It has not been so proven.
and therefore fraudulent given its intentional misgridding
You have not demonstrated any "misgridding", you have only demonstrated that cartography is a subject of which you understand very little.
and THAT!!! is not a point in dispute.......
Au contraire, your "points" are almost all universally disputed, because they are for the most point quite simply wrong.

I have been reading quite a bit about the origins and developments of the star sighting systems that were and are used in ICBM guidance beginning in the 1960s. This has great relevance with regard to the Apollo Fraud as I'll demonstrate to the horror of all "Lost Bird" thread fans with the courage to take a look at this particularly ugly aspect of the space ruse......

Stay tuned to "Lost Bird" and brace yourselves for these particularly disturbing revelations.........
Nothing you have to say is likely to be disturbing, merely amusing in that with every post you demonstrate your laymans' understanding of a complex subject, when in the thread there are people with technical expertise.

The question remains, what evidence would it take to convince you that Apollo 11 was a manned mission? This is an important question and should not be dodged.
 
The question remains, what evidence would it take to convince you that Apollo 11 was a manned mission? This is an important question and should not be dodged.

A rational person discussing this subject in good faith would have no reason whatsoever to "dodge" this question...
 
We know this to be all FAKE as the ship's computer, the charting system would need to know what to look for in advance. THIS IS TRUE FOR ANY STELLAR-INERTIAL GUIDANCE SYSTEM BEING DEVELOPED. Were Apollo 8 real, the ACT threesome NOT would have come down with something a little more serious than a cases of nausea, dizziness and diarrhea.

FAKE!!!!!!!!

One more big fat time for emphasis... FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Your theory fails to account for the presence on earth of pristine samples of lunar rock and dust that could only have been collected on the moon by hand. Your theory being inconsistent with the evidence, it is false, You are wrong,
 
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