Merged So there was melted steel

[The Platypus]

So I'll just repost my questions

How many times do i have to repost my question before you stop ignoring it?

 

[NoahFence]

So I'll just repost my questions for the OCTers here before I take a break:

Robertson claims he saw rivers of molten steel. There were many other reports of molten steel in the rubble pile of WTC. John Gross denies there were any reports of molten steel.


Can we agree on these facts, or are you denying them?

OK, Speaking only for myself and not for any other person you refer to as a debunker:

I AGREE.

Now. Your turn - (I know you'll ignore this, but what the hell)

How does that in any way make a damn bit of difference? Reports of molten steel are not molten steel. IF THERE WAS molten steel, it doesn't prove controlled demolition. So, aside from the painfully obvious "gotcha" that you're trying to do, what difference does it make?

 

[NoahFence]

IMO there should be some sort of mod action taken against people who start conversations then ignore questions regarding thier points when the answers don't suit them.

 

[carlitos]

IMO there should be some sort of mod action taken against people who start conversations then ignore questions regarding thier points when the answers don't suit them.

You don't have to engage them, you know.

 

[NoahFence]

Oh, I know. But it's a pretty cowardly method of discussion.

 

[Oystein]

IMO there should be some sort of mod action taken against people who start conversations then ignore questions regarding thier points when the answers don't suit them.

Haha that's how Rob Balsamo runs Pilots4Truth

Warren,

I have split out your reply to keep in a safe place until you address the information and questions you continually avoid.

If your next post once again avoids the questions you have been asked to address, I will send you on vacation once again as it appears you need more time to form a response. I would have thought the few months (a 2 week vacation and nearly a year to respond) you've been avoiding to answer would be enough time, apparently not.

 

[Oystein]

Oh, I know. But it's a pretty cowardly method of discussion.

You won't change him. Don't take it personal.

 

[Edx]

So the steel girders in the bridge fires you reported are NOT steel?

Uh yes they are... are you really this dense or what?

You can find endless examples where people incorrectly reported that steel melted in other fires, therefore finding people saying steel melted on 911 is not special or remarkable.

Is that too complex for your mind to process?

 

[Miragememories]

"I beg to differ.....I have a B. of Science in Architecture.
But, even with that, there is no special training in metallurgy, ( the closest you come is mechanics of materials and building strucutres) and no troofer has ever show that anyone can be trained to identify metals just by eyeballing it.

Another point, an expert will certainly be able to gain greater information through a photograph than an non expert will by person observation. MM applies a false authority to an architect as being an expert in metallurgy."

I never said that the melted steel determination was made by mere "eyeballing".

And since Animal you believe that no one can be trained to identify metals just by visual examination, then you must concur with my disbelief that Grizzly Bear cannot possibly determine the absence of melted steel by staring at a 2D photograph?

We have on record, one of the world's leading newspapers, the NY Times, in a published story a few months after 9/11 and before melted steel became a subject of controversy, reporting that "And nestled against the Koenig globe is a truly horrible object: a charred and pitted lump of fused concrete, melted steel, carbonized furniture and less recognizable elements, a meteorite-like mass that no human force could have forged, but which was in fact created by the fiery demise of the towers..."

We also have on record, the head of the prestigious architectural firm, Voorsanger Architects PC which was contracted to de-contaminate and collect valuable artifacts from the WTC. The head of that firm appeared with the same specimen on National Television where he stated;

"This is fused element of molten steel, and concrete, and all of these things, all fused by the heat into one single element."

"And almost like a chunk of lava from Kilauea Volcano or Iceland, where there are very sharp but breakable shards on the ends here"

"Metallurgy is not a specialty in architecture MM. I have a Master's Degree in Architecture, and to expand on Animals' remark, forensically identifying metals that have been crumpled and melted by various on-site conditions is not among the materials we are taught or learned. If you're that desperate to cling to professional titles you should at least select an authority that is relevant."

Well we aren't talking about geological dig here Grizzly Bear.

The firm Voorsanger Architects PC, would look quite unprofessional if when asked about the artifacts they collected, and then were unable to identify them in the context of past and present.

You do not have to be a metallurgist to identify on site, recognizable building objects.

If you know an object is made of steel and you can see that a part of it has been melted, I think even an architect can accurately state a finding of melted steel.

MM

 

[sheeplesnshills]

I beg to differ.....I have a B. of Science in Architecture.

I stand corrected.....still don't think its a science though
Brother in law is an Architect in Scotland and his course was definitely more art than science.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

The firm Voorsanger Architects PC, would look quite unprofessional if when asked about the artifacts they collected, and then were unable to identify them in the context of past and present.

How does that guarantee that they were right?

You do not have to be a metallurgist to identify on site, recognizable building objects.

one would if they were melted!

If you know an object is made of steel and you can see that a part of it has been melted, I think even an architect can accurately state a finding of melted steel.

Ok show where he tested for Steel (its a specific alloy of iron and carbon etc)? and where he checked to see when that material was melted?

We'll wait

 

[NoahFence]

I never said that the melted steel determination was made by mere "eyeballing".

And since Animal you believe that no one can be trained to identify metals just by visual examination, then you must concur with my disbelief that Grizzly Bear cannot possibly determine the absence of melted steel by staring at a 2D photograph?

We have on record, one of the world's leading newspapers, the NY Times, in a published story a few months after 9/11 and before melted steel became a subject of controversy, reporting that "And nestled against the Koenig globe is a truly horrible object: a charred and pitted lump of fused concrete, melted steel, carbonized furniture and less recognizable elements, a meteorite-like mass that no human force could have forged, but which was in fact created by the fiery demise of the towers..."

We also have on record, the head of the prestigious architectural firm, Voorsanger Architects PC which was contracted to de-contaminate and collect valuable artifacts from the WTC. The head of that firm appeared with the same specimen on National Television where he stated;

[qimg]http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/159/wtcdebris2abpc190018.jpg[/qimg]





Well we aren't talking about geological dig here Grizzly Bear.

The firm Voorsanger Architects PC, would look quite unprofessional if when asked about the artifacts they collected, and then were unable to identify them in the context of past and present.

You do not have to be a metallurgist to identify on site, recognizable building objects.

If you know an object is made of steel and you can see that a part of it has been melted, I think even an architect can accurately state a finding of melted steel.

MM

MM - you're 100% right. (well, not really)

There was melted steel.

The problem we have here is simply an inability for you or anybody else on your side to answer the simple question:

So what?

 

[Edx]

We also have on record, the head of the prestigious architectural firm, Voorsanger Architects PC which was contracted to de-contaminate and collect valuable artifacts from the WTC. The head of that firm appeared with the same specimen on National Television where he stated;

Why do you keep saying they are experts and prestigious when you think they are too stupid and incompetent to know that only thermite can melt steel and that the towers were obviously demolished?

 

[Miragememories]

"We have on record, one of the world's leading newspapers, the NY Times, in a published story a few months after 9/11 and before melted steel became a subject of controversy, reporting that "And nestled against the Koenig globe is a truly horrible object: a charred and pitted lump of fused concrete, melted steel, carbonized furniture and less recognizable elements, a meteorite-like mass that no human force could have forged, but which was in fact created by the fiery demise of the towers..."

Why do you keep saying they are experts and prestigious when you think they are too stupid and incompetent to know that only thermite can melt steel and that the towers were obviously demolished?

Why do you say what I don't say?

I do not see the word expert in that quote?

MM

 

[Travis]

How strange to prominently display a huge chunk of something that would supposedly blow the whole thing wide open.

Or maybe people realize that, as the thread tries to prove, molten steel is irrelevant until someone can establish what its presence would mean.

Since ergo has joined us maybe we can get something new.

 

[NoahFence]

OK MM -

If you're not going to answer the question "so what" - why not answer why you won't answer the question "so what"?

 

[The Platypus]

They can't find a cult website or youtube video that tells them what to say when questioned on how molten steel = something sinister. All they can do is recite cult rhetoric without thinking. Their knowledge is limited to what the cult tells them.

 

[000063]

Wow. The first few posts on this thread are unbelievable. Insulated debris piles full of dust produce hotter fires? No, wait, it's hotter-than-natural debris pile fires fed by air and/or hotter-than-natural air through the crushed, blocked, not-in-use subway system?

Rather than read 56 pages of ridiculous conjecture, can someone just fill me in?

9/11 idiots, including John Gross, spend how many years saying there was no molten steel, there was no molten metal. Now they admit (sort of, pending official acknowledgement) that there was but that it's common to find molten steel/molten metal in highrise fires? And/or that the molten metal is actually molten aluminum. (The stories change a fair bit )

1) Why didn't they just investigate it in the first place? Take pictures even?

2) Why does this sound so much like the "There was no free fall, dammit!!1!" argument?

3) Where is the evidence/reports of molten steel/metal in the most significant highrise fires of the last century?

4) If it's so common, why would 9/11 idiots spend X-many years denying that it happened on 9/11? (see question 2).

It's a real laugh sometimes reading the antics the Terrists-Done-It theorists have to put themselves through.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but something tells me you're strawmanning wildly. I'll bet the pages after your post prove it.

*checks*

Yep!

 

[Miragememories]

"How strange to prominently display a huge chunk of something that would supposedly blow the whole thing wide open.

Or maybe people realize that, as the thread tries to prove, molten steel is irrelevant until someone can establish what its presence would mean.

Since ergo has joined us maybe we can get something new."

The presence of melted steel means the presence of steel melting temperatures.

The presence of steel melting temperatures where such temperatures should not have existed as a result of gravity collapse means that something artificial created that condition.

MM

 

[Edx]

Why do you say what I don't say?

I do not see the word expert in that quote?

MM

Jeez MM, You've been saying Bart's quote is from his professional opinion for pages and pages.

Care to deal with the point? How can Bart be both a prestigious professional to say that there really was melted steel and yet too stupid or incompetent to not know that there had to be thermite involved and can't tell that the towers were demolished? How can Bart and his company be both brilliant and stupid at the same time?