Chivalry can be taken a bit too far

[theprestige]

I agree with you completely, but I think you've got the roles reversed a bit.

I stepped back to allow everyone else at the stop to go first as I was the only one with an umbrella. A few guys made no move to go ahead of me, so I told them to go ahead. Some of them refused my gesture and insisted that I go ahead. I pointed out that I had an umbrella and they didn't, and all but one went ahead of me. All this was happening while we were waiting for other people to board the bus, so the boarding process wasn't stalled.

All the women and most of the men had no problem accepting my initial gesture of stepping back to let other, less prepared people board ahead me. It was just these few guys who would rather get all wet than to go ahead of me.

And that reversal stands my whole critique on its head! Objection happily withdrawn, your honor!

 

[CelticRose]

Some posteriors are so shapely they cannot be hidden by such means, their glory shines right through, proclaiming itself to all the world!

Why, thank you!




Funny to receive a comment like that from a gay man who's never seen me...

 

[TragicMonkey]

Why, thank you!




Funny to receive a comment like that from a gay man who's never seen me...

I was talking about mine.

 

[caniswalensis]

It was just these few guys who would rather get all wet than to go ahead of me.

Sounds like you inspired them.

 

[caniswalensis]

I was talking about mine.

Yeah, it's great. To bad it's on the front of your head.


CLASSIC BURN!

 

[Stacko]

No rain shelter, which unfortunately isn't uncommon around here.

Not sure how your buses are organized, but around here being last on would actually reduce one's chances of being near an exit since by the time you got on there would be 2 or 3 people standing in the exit doorway blocking the doorway whenever someone tries to disembark.

Our bus drivers force you to move to the center unless you're pregnant, disabled, or morbidly obese so that makes a difference.

 

[gnome]

An honest question to people that would say this kind of chivalry is related to sexism (and I'm not even saying you're wrong)...

Is it a bad kind of sexism if I am especially nice to women because I enjoy improving their day slightly or seeing them smile, even if I have no sexual intent? Mainly it's just because I really like women.

 

[sadhatter]

It may not have been strictly a gender thing. I will generally let someone with their hands full on the bus/train in front of me, so they have time to get on and arrange their stuff on the seat before we leave.

I agree on this one, i have a very " You first" mentality in regards to most things, if it is not direly important, i let people walk in the door to a store first, hold the door open for them, let/invite them cut in line (assuming i am next, and only if not i don't because then it is effecting other people.) and general stuff like that, and i have no gender/age bias either. Whether your a guy my age at the bar, or an old lady at the grocery store, its all good.

I mean i like to get in and out of places quickly, and whatnot, but i know a lot of people have a much greater want for this than myself, and i am happy to oblige.

Then again i am the kind of guy that carries up old people's groceries whether i know them or not, ( and as an addendum this usually throws them for a loop, as i am a bit of an eclectic dresser, leather jackets, band shirts, a bit of jewelry, etc. My offer of help is usually prefaced by a somewhat apprehensive look from them as i walk over.) so take this with a grain of salt. I may be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[sadhatter]

"Chivalry" seems to me like the velvet glove of patriarchy. If sex discrimination is bad, why is it less bad when the woman gets some small-scale benefit out of it? The long-term effect is still the entrenchment of the idea that women are weaker and more fragile and should be held to a lower standard. So hold the door for them, but don't expect their pretty little heads to handle math or science like boys can.

(Obviously it's a different calculation when you're talking about someone with their hands full or pregnant women, but I took the OP to be speaking more generally than that.)

I think that is an oversimplification of the issue. Some people just like to be nice, as one of those people, in my experience, offering help to a gent of my age and physical ability usually ends up with a somewhat nasty comment, or at least a weird look and an assumption of hitting on them. ( i'm bi and it shows, so this last bit may not apply to everyone.)

For example, i have no doubt that an old lady ( or any other female, really.) could carry her groceries up to her apartment, i mean its not like she would be waiting all day in the lobby for someone to come along. But i know i would like someone to offer to do that for me, so i offer it to her.

I don't think " Oh look at the silly little girl, trying to lift stuff." i remember all the times i was overloaded with crap trying to bring it up, and try to avoid them having to go through the same situation.

 

[sadhatter]

Guessing that's directed at me (as I'm sitting here in my Park Slope apartment pondering the issue), I haven't said anything against a gender-neutral norm of politeness. I'm all in favor of that. What I'm talking about is the notion of "chivalry" that means something like the OP was talking about-- women, simply by virtue of being women, are entitled to social courtesies that carry a pretty clear implication of frailty. I don't see how it isn't obvious that that view carries with it the assumption that women, by definition of their gender, need special treatment (from men, of course) to make it through the day.

You know, taking old folks out of the equation. Some of this can be attributed to good old fashioned hitting on someone, being nice is a good way to start a conversation, not that this is the sole reason , mind you, but it does explain why your average guy ( the average guy being straight) would be more inclined to do this for a female versus a male.

 

[I Ratant]

No, Occam's Razor suggests that she is lying, and neither the men nor the bus ever existed. That is far more parsimonious than hypothesizing literally dozens of entities just to satisfy the single data point of one anonymous forum anecdote.

.
For shame!
I hold doors for members of the female persuasion.
Can't always detect their ladyness at a glance.
Now, back before the Mall installed automatic opening doors, it was amusing to observe the Middle Eastern family entering... Daddy would open the door, enter and let the door close. Junior would open the door, enter, and let the door close.
Mommy would have to open the door....
Some kids more than capable of opening the door for Mommy will wait for her to open it.

 

[I Ratant]

Some posteriors are so shapely they cannot be hidden by such means, their glory shines right through, proclaiming itself to all the world!

.
God bless the sweater dress!

 

[3point14]

You know, mostly I do it (Opening doors, giving up seats etc.) because it adds a little colour and theatre to an otherwise boring day.

That and the fact that, sometimes, it raises a smile and makes the world a slightly happier place.

Occasionally it raises a frown from ladies who think I'm being mysoginist. I remember their faces and, next time, wait till they are half way through the door then close it on them.*







* May not be entirely accurate.

 

[Bluegill]

Occam's Razor suggests the simplest solution is that they wanted to admire your posterior.

My first thought. Even if you're in a long coat, there's often a desire to get a view from every possible angle.

Also, if anyone is carrying bags, I'd be inclined to let him or her on the bus first just so they can lighten their load faster.

 

[bookitty]

My husband is old school chivalry. Opens doors, opens passenger side car doors, doesn't sit down at a restaurant until all women are seated, takes not-even-that-heavy stuff out of my arms, gives up his seat when there are other freaking seats and I was happy in these two, thank you very much.

I asked him about it one time and he said "That's what you do." Basically that was what he was taught is normal human interaction. He doesn't really think about. If he doesn't do it, it is breaking some sort of subtle social contract and that makes him mildly uncomfortable.

That's probably the case for most people. It's a learned response with no more implication than that.

 

[slingblade]

I don't expect gender-based courtesies. And I don't give them.

I am a woman. I will, for example, hold the door for anyone, regardless of gender, if I get to the door first. If someone holds it for me, I respond by going through it quickly, so as not to make them wait on me, and by thanking them sincerely.

I do not expect the fact that I has teh bewbs to get me special treatment.
I do expect the fact that I exist to get me at least courteous treatment, and am a bit disappointed when I don't get it. But not because I'm a fragile femme.

Because I'm a person. That's all.

 

[Debaser]

Lol, Arizonans have never mastered the art of lining up to get on a bus. Everybody sits on benches or mills around until the bus comes, and then there's a sort of mob (without pushing or shoving) toward the bus and the first one who gets there first boards the bus first. Sometimes, the elderly, infirm, and pregnant women will be allowed to board first, other times, not.

Englishman faints...

 

[Verde]

If you've lived in this area for any length of time you should know that it's quite common for it to be perfectly dry in one part of the Valley while it's coming a flood in another. (evidences) It was pouring rain where I was.

Besides, this is Arizona. What we call a downpour others would call a "nice soft day". [/Arizona native]

Yes, I have only been here for 22 years, but I think I have a pretty good idea of the weather. I was just trying to throw a little bit of facetiousness into the discussion.

Back to the OP; as I said upstream I will hold the door for anyone coming behind me, man or woman. I will also go back and open the door for an elderly person (does that make me an ageist?) or someone pushing a stroller, an obviously pregnant woman, or anyone that seems to be struggling with their bags.

I'd like to think this is because I was 'brung up proper', or maybe it is a natural response.

V.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Actually, if you want to go all scientific method here, I have to point out that TM's theory ignores the fact that I was wearing a full-length coat that hid my posterior from view.

Ah, but.... Ankles??!! Were you showing any ankle?

You need to move to Hong Kong. You will never have that problem here. You don't even have to step back to allow someone ahead of you. If you so much as pause, six healthy twenty-two year olds will barge past you.

I've told this before, but I once nearly dislocated a young woman's shoulder. There was not a huge crowd boarding the MTR and I was managing Marcello's stroller, but hadn't delayed the boarding when this young thing goes elbowing past us, with her laptop shoulder bag missing Marcello's head by a fraction of an inch. She was rushing, I swear, to beat an elderly woman to the seat the woman was heading for (not the only seat on the train, even).

Instinct kicked in and all of a sudden the young woman yelped. I then sort of noticed that I'd grabbed her bag strap and her inertia whipped her around. I let out a tirade in my worst pidgin Chinglish and told her she was lucky I merely impeded her progress because if she'd hit my baby with her bag just to sit on the MTR, I would've probably slugged her.

Just a note on the wet factor: If I'm sufficiently drenched, I let anyone dryer go ahead of me. You can't get wetter than wet (in spite of pop references), and letting someone half-wet stay half-dry seems like a sensible thing.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I don't expect gender-based courtesies. And I don't give them.

I am a woman. I will, for example, hold the door for anyone, regardless of gender, if I get to the door first. If someone holds it for me, I respond by going through it quickly, so as not to make them wait on me, and by thanking them sincerely.

I do not expect the fact that I has teh bewbs to get me special treatment.
I do expect the fact that I exist to get me at least courteous treatment, and am a bit disappointed when I don't get it. But not because I'm a fragile femme.

Because I'm a person. That's all.

I will hold the door for a lady, but only because that is how I was taught. I know it's just behavior modification, but it doesn't hurt anyone, so I do it anyway.
I'm much more aware of giving preference and assistance to elderly or physically challenged people, as they very often need it. An older woman or man is in more need of my help than a strong, healthy young woman, who is probably in better shape than me.