Chivalry can be taken a bit too far

[Ron_Tomkins]

I was gonna post something but... I'll let whoever wants to post first, do so.

No, no... please. After you

 

[gumboot]

Okay, so I'm waiting at the bus stop in the pouring down rain with a bunch of other people. I've just been grocery shopping, but I've got most of my stuff in my backpack and another waterproof bag with the rest wrapped in several layers of plastic grocery bags (yes, I will recycle them), so none of my stuff is getting wet. I'm wearing a full-length coat, a hat, gloves, boots, and I'm carrying an umbrella. I'm as dry as one can reasonably be in a steady downpour.

When the bus comes, several guys, none of whom are carrying an umbrella and most of whose raingear consists of only a hoodie or a jacket, try to motion me ahead of them in the line to get on the bus.

Now, to me this is just plain silly. I mean, I generally like chivalry, and I appreciate it when guys make those polite gestures and I always thank them nicely. However, it makes no sense for a guy to stand in the pouring down rain for my sake when I'm not even getting wet.

I did manage to convince all but one of them that it really made more sense for them to go ahead of me since they were getting wet and I wasn't.

So, guys, what do you think about this? Should common sense or politeness prevail in such situations?

"Chivalry", "Gallantry", "Gentlemanly behaviour", call it what you want, that was the benefit women gained from being generally seen as inferior to men. Women wanted equality, and they've got it. I refuse to let a woman go before me just because they're a woman. I don't open doors for women either. That's sexism.

Having said that, I will put people (male or female) ahead of myself if there's a legitimate reason they should. I tend to let children go before me, and older people. If someone has a disability, if they're pregnant (okay that's only women!), if they're encumbered with a heavy load, if they're injured, and so on.

There are plenty of reasons for being courteous and suffering a minor inconvenience to assist another person. Being female is absolutely not one of them.

 

[gumboot]

I work in film, and specifically, dealing with actors. The way you can tell which actors are arrogant a-holes and which aren't is when you both go through a door.

If I am going through a door with another person, and I get there first, I will hold it for them. I consider that pretty basic. I think in most instances you'll find people do this automatically. Because we're usually leading an actor somewhere, we're almost always first to the door. Thus it's a great way to learn what sort of person they are, even within seconds of meeting them.

The trick is, what they do as they walk through the door.

There's two types of people;

One type of person will put their hand to the door as they walk through. They're taking over the job of holding the door from you, and this shows they appreciate what you're doing and are willing to "help out". They don't expect this sort of treatment as a matter of course. It leaves you free to stop holding the door and continue on your way.

Another type of person will walk through the door without touching it, expecting you to continue holding it open until they have safely passed through. You are forced to remain waiting at the door as they stroll past. This shows an attitude of entitlement.

You can really tell a lot about a person by how they walk through doors.

(Obviously this doesn't apply if the person following you through the door is carrying something, and unable to take over holding the door).

I encourage you to take note of this behaviour next time you're holding a door for someone. It really is a great litmus test for whether someone actually appreciates and respect you, or whether they're just used to people doing things for them.

 

[Magenta]

Another type of person will walk through the door without touching it, expecting you to continue holding it open until they have safely passed through. You are forced to remain waiting at the door as they stroll past. This shows an attitude of entitlement.

The trick is to walk far enough through the doorway so that you're only just holding the door open with your fingertips and will let it close in their face if they don't make an effort to hold it. Not sure what that says about my attitude.

 

[gumboot]

The trick is to walk far enough through the doorway so that you're only just holding the door open with your fingertips and will let it close in their face if they don't make an effort to hold it. Not sure what that says about my attitude.

When I was first discovering this odd behaviour I experimented once by going through a door, holding it open briefly, and then releasing it, without looking.

The actress following me got quite a shock when the door closed on her.

 

[CelticRose]

Ah, but.... Ankles??!! Were you showing any ankle?

No, but I was showing a bit of wrist, hussy that I am.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Yes, I open doors for my math professor wife because she can't handle it like us boys.

I don't deny that there is some association between chivalry towards women and the idea that they are fragile. It is not always that way, though.

Where I live, people (me included) open and hold doors for everyone, man or woman. If you're going to have your hand on the door or be close to the door while another person approaches, you may as well do it instead of letting the door close in their face. I've never favored people for politeness based on sex, myself.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I work in film, and specifically, dealing with actors. The way you can tell which actors are arrogant a-holes and which aren't is when you both go through a door.

If I am going through a door with another person, and I get there first, I will hold it for them. I consider that pretty basic. I think in most instances you'll find people do this automatically. Because we're usually leading an actor somewhere, we're almost always first to the door. Thus it's a great way to learn what sort of person they are, even within seconds of meeting them.

The trick is, what they do as they walk through the door.

There's two types of people;

One type of person will put their hand to the door as they walk through. They're taking over the job of holding the door from you, and this shows they appreciate what you're doing and are willing to "help out". They don't expect this sort of treatment as a matter of course. It leaves you free to stop holding the door and continue on your way.

Another type of person will walk through the door without touching it, expecting you to continue holding it open until they have safely passed through. You are forced to remain waiting at the door as they stroll past. This shows an attitude of entitlement.

You can really tell a lot about a person by how they walk through doors.

(Obviously this doesn't apply if the person following you through the door is carrying something, and unable to take over holding the door).

I encourage you to take note of this behaviour next time you're holding a door for someone. It really is a great litmus test for whether someone actually appreciates and respect you, or whether they're just used to people doing things for them.

This just seems cumbersome to me, I will think about it next time I am opening or holding a door. Here you simply say "thank you" to someone who opens the door, but I can see this being different on set with someone opening doors for you all the time.

Actually, I may be visualizing this wrongly. When someone opens a door for me from the inside, I grab the door and thank them,...

 

[caniswalensis]

Where I live, people (me included) open and hold doors for everyone, man or woman. If you're going to have your hand on the door or be close to the door while another person approaches, you may as well do it instead of letting the door close in their face. I've never favored people for politeness based on sex, myself.

I am the same way. I say as much in my more serious posts here in this thread.

I hold as many doors for men as I do for women. It's just good manners.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I encourage you to take note of this behaviour next time you're holding a door for someone. It really is a great litmus test for whether someone actually appreciates and respect you, or whether they're just used to people doing things for them.

It's a terrible litmus test. You've basically set up a false dichotomy based on your preconceived notions of their motivations.

 

[Babbylonian]

My husband is old school chivalry. Opens doors, opens passenger side car doors, doesn't sit down at a restaurant until all women are seated, takes not-even-that-heavy stuff out of my arms, gives up his seat when there are other freaking seats and I was happy in these two, thank you very much.

I asked him about it one time and he said "That's what you do." Basically that was what he was taught is normal human interaction. He doesn't really think about. If he doesn't do it, it is breaking some sort of subtle social contract and that makes him mildly uncomfortable.

That's probably the case for most people. It's a learned response with no more implication than that.

This for me. Here's another one: I was taught is to walk on the outside of the sidewalk (closest to the street) when with a woman or passing one walking the opposite direction. My grandma told me (many times) that such things were "just what you're supposed to do."

Nowadays, I've heard the feminist arguments against such "chivalry," taken them on board, and defer to pretty much everybody, male and female.

My bus etiquette: If there's more than one person waiting to get on the bus, unless the door opens right in front of where I'm standing I let everyone else get on before me without regard to gender, and if the bus is full, unless I'm having my occasional foot trouble, I give up my seat in favor of everyone except teenagers (I'm strongly prejudiced against teenagers).

My reasoning: The more polite my actions towards strangers, the better the chance those strangers will be polite to the next person down the line.

My one anti-politeness pet peeve: When I'm standing at a corner waiting to cross the street (no marked crosswalk), I absolutely hate when someone stops their car to let me cross. For one thing there's no guarantee that traffic going the other way will stop and for another, as an unprotected pedestrian, I can't afford to trust anyone driving a couple tons of metal so I'd rather cars just move on and get out of the way. Even worse is when they stop and I just happen to be standing there with no intention to cross. Drive, people!

 

[caniswalensis]

My one anti-politeness pet peeve: When I'm standing at a corner waiting to cross the street (no marked crosswalk), I absolutely hate when someone stops their car to let me cross. For one thing there's no guarantee that traffic going the other way will stop and for another, as an unprotected pedestrian, I can't afford to trust anyone driving a couple tons of metal so I'd rather cars just move on and get out of the way. Even worse is when they stop and I just happen to be standing there with no intention to cross. Drive, people!

I was thinking of a related issue this morning.

I do not like it when people improperly yield their right-of-way to me in traffic. I know they think yhey are being nice, but when we start ignoring the rules, it is going to make a dangerous activity even more so.

Please take your appointed right-of-way, everybody.

 

[I Ratant]

I was talking about mine.

.
Yes, I know the feeling... it's the feeling that matters.
Loved it when the teeny bopper at the Mall caressed mine, when I was tad fitter.
And I didn't even know her!

 

[I Ratant]

An honest question to people that would say this kind of chivalry is related to sexism (and I'm not even saying you're wrong)...

Is it a bad kind of sexism if I am especially nice to women because I enjoy improving their day slightly or seeing them smile, even if I have no sexual intent? Mainly it's just because I really like women.

.
I am equally opportunistically chivalrous. Do things for anyone who may need it at the time.
I don't kick small children out of -my way- at the Mall.. the small ones don't look out for themselves so we have to.

 

[I Ratant]

The trick is to walk far enough through the doorway so that you're only just holding the door open with your fingertips and will let it close in their face if they don't make an effort to hold it. Not sure what that says about my attitude.

.
I've done that too.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I was thinking of a related issue this morning.

I do not like it when people improperly yield their right-of-way to me in traffic. I know they think yhey are being nice, but when we start ignoring the rules, it is going to make a dangerous activity even more so.

Please take your appointed right-of-way, everybody.

Yes, often these well-meaning people end up causing more traffic delay for more people than would occur if everyone just followed the rules.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

For me, it's not so much 'well-meaning' as 'I'm going to be driving funky and I want you as far away as possible when I do' as usually I'm at work delivering newspapers when I'm driving.

 

[I Ratant]

Yes, often these well-meaning people end up causing more traffic delay for more people than would occur if everyone just followed the rules.

.
They may not know the rules, or have any driving sense.
They're the guy that waits at the green light for the car next to them to proceed, before they will.
Drive below the speed limit, because that's "safer". With a line of cars behind them.
Won't turn right on a red light.

 

[bookitty]

This for me. Here's another one: I was taught is to walk on the outside of the sidewalk (closest to the street) when with a woman or passing one walking the opposite direction. My grandma told me (many times) that such things were "just what you're supposed to do."

Nowadays, I've heard the feminist arguments against such "chivalry," taken them on board, and defer to pretty much everybody, male and female.
My bus etiquette: If there's more than one person waiting to get on the bus, unless the door opens right in front of where I'm standing I let everyone else get on before me without regard to gender, and if the bus is full, unless I'm having my occasional foot trouble, I give up my seat in favor of everyone except teenagers (I'm strongly prejudiced against teenagers).

My reasoning: The more polite my actions towards strangers, the better the chance those strangers will be polite to the next person down the line.

My one anti-politeness pet peeve: When I'm standing at a corner waiting to cross the street (no marked crosswalk), I absolutely hate when someone stops their car to let me cross. For one thing there's no guarantee that traffic going the other way will stop and for another, as an unprotected pedestrian, I can't afford to trust anyone driving a couple tons of metal so I'd rather cars just move on and get out of the way. Even worse is when they stop and I just happen to be standing there with no intention to cross. Drive, people!

I've heard that there are all these feminist arguing about chivalry but I've never met a feminist who really cares about it one way or the other. Maybe before my time, say the 1970's, there was some sort of brief outcry? These days you only hear it from anti-feminists, women who are "better than those feminists" and people who buy into it and then have a few experiences which twig their confirmation bias. It's like some weird urban legend which keeps getting passed on.

If you open a door for someone and they don't smile, or they give you a weird look or whatever, they are probably having a bad day. If someone was really that much of a radical, they would say something.

 

[gnome]

I would guess there's probably a particular kind of urban legend that gets passed along because it reinforces a political bias. In many cases these have details added to counter objectives--you'll notice it's almost always a perfect case, not like the kind of thing that shows up in the real world and tends to be muddled.