Chivalry can be taken a bit too far

[truethat]

Guessing that's directed at me (as I'm sitting here in my Park Slope apartment pondering the issue), I haven't said anything against a gender-neutral norm of politeness. I'm all in favor of that. What I'm talking about is the notion of "chivalry" that means something like the OP was talking about-- women, simply by virtue of being women, are entitled to social courtesies that carry a pretty clear implication of frailty. I don't see how it isn't obvious that that view carries with it the assumption that women, by definition of their gender, need special treatment (from men, of course) to make it through the day.

No it means if you take time to consider if they are doing it because you are a woman instead of just accepting it as a nice gesture as a human being, then you are over thinking the issue and you are the one with the problem. Most people who hold doors open for people are just doing it to be POLITE not because they think you are frail.

I'm nearly 6 feet tall. People DO NOT think I am frail. They hold the door to be polite. So do I.

ETA why do all the Berkeley people wind up in Park Slope. Yeah lovely Bastion of Friendliness (militant feminists) that is Park Slope. Good luck over there.

 

[sgtbaker]

No it means if you take time to consider if they are doing it because you are a woman instead of just accepting it as a nice gesture as a human being, then you are over thinking the issue and you are the one with the problem. Most people who hold doors open for people are just doing it to be POLITE not because they think you are frail.

I'm nearly 6 feet tall. People DO NOT think I am frail. They hold the door to be polite. So do I.

ETA why do all the Berkeley people wind up in Park Slope. Yeah lovely Bastion of Friendliness (militant feminists) that is Park Slope. Good luck over there.

It really depends on where you are. It's a pretty level playing field, in NY, if I remember correctly. You can hold the door for men and women and they will both pass through, half the time without so much as a thank you. In Florida, at least half the time I hold the door for a man, they will not pass through as though a woman holding the door for a man is some social sin. Of course the women will still walk right through and on a good day they will acknowledge that I am even there. On a bad day, I get stuck as the door holder as the equivilent of a clown car passes through the door way and no one else will grab the door.

 

[JamesDillon]

No it means if you take time to consider if they are doing it because you are a woman instead of just accepting it as a nice gesture as a human being, then you are over thinking the issue and you are the one with the problem. Most people who hold doors open for people are just doing it to be POLITE not because they think you are frail.

If I haven't made this clear already (though I think I have), I'm not saying that everyone who holds a door for a woman is doing so for consciously sexist reasons. I think you and I would agree that most of the time they're just doing it because holding a door for a woman is socially accepted as "polite." My point is that that definition of politeness is itself implicitly sexist.

I also am not denying that there's a more gender-neutral norm of politeness that doesn't carry the same implicit sexism. If you're the sort of person who holds a door for anyone, good for you. But are you really arguing that there aren't people who believe in treating women more favorably-- whether it's holding a door, giving up a seat, letting them step out of an elevator first, etc.-- precisely because they are women? That's the distinction I had in mind between politeness and "chivalry"-- one rarely hears about a woman being "chivalrous" to a man; the very concept carries gender-normative roles.

ETA why do all the Berkeley people wind up in Park Slope. Yeah lovely Bastion of Friendliness (militant feminists) that is Park Slope. Good luck over there.

Actually I'm bicoastal these days; grad school at Berkeley, back in Park Slope for the breaks. But I lived in Park Slope for 3 years before starting school, so if anything I'm a Park Slope person who ended up in Berkeley. Can't say I see a lot of militant feminists around here; more moderate lefty soccer moms, though I did think the "boy's hat" debacle on the Park Slope Parents' listserv a few years back was kind of ridiculous. I'd say it's the friendliest NYC neighborhood I've ever lived in.

 

[truethat]

It really depends on where you are. It's a pretty level playing field, in NY, if I remember correctly. You can hold the door for men and women and they will both pass through, half the time without so much as a thank you. In Florida, at least half the time I hold the door for a man, they will not pass through as though a woman holding the door for a man is some social sin. Of course the women will still walk right through and on a good day they will acknowledge that I am even there. On a bad day, I get stuck as the door holder as the equivilent of a clown car passes through the door way and no one else will grab the door.

LOL I hate the clown car brigade. always happens to me.

 

[truethat]

If I haven't made this clear already (though I think I have), I'm not saying that everyone who holds a door for a woman is doing so for consciously sexist reasons. I think you and I would agree that most of the time they're just doing it because holding a door for a woman is socially accepted as "polite." My point is that that definition of politeness is itself implicitly sexist.

I also am not denying that there's a more gender-neutral norm of politeness that doesn't carry the same implicit sexism. If you're the sort of person who holds a door for anyone, good for you. But are you really arguing that there aren't people who believe in treating women more favorably-- whether it's holding a door, giving up a seat, letting them step out of an elevator first, etc.-- precisely because they are women? That's the distinction I had in mind between politeness and "chivalry"-- one rarely hears about a woman being "chivalrous" to a man; the very concept carries gender-normative roles.


Actually I'm bicoastal these days; grad school at Berkeley, back in Park Slope for the breaks. But I lived in Park Slope for 3 years before starting school, so if anything I'm a Park Slope person who ended up in Berkeley. Can't say I see a lot of militant feminists around here; more moderate lefty soccer moms, though I did think the "boy's hat" debacle on the Park Slope Parents' listserv a few years back was kind of ridiculous.

Well it ain't surprising either way. Park Slope also have the parents who think it is oppressive not to allow children to hang out in bars with their trendy mom and dads because it's just a social construct. So is bathing and dressing decently apparently. (Not directing that at you! I don't know ya, but I'm sure you've seen what I mean)

I don't know what the boy's hat debacle is. Off to google.


LMAO

Yep sounds about right.


http://gawker.com/166214/the-park-slope-hat-spat-read-all-the-emails

 

[Verde]

Now, I agree with you there. I don't think that women deserve preferential treatment just because of their gender -- that is a sexist notion. It's nice to receive the preferential treatment, and like I've said I always thank the guy nicely, but I don't feel that it's my due. If a guy doesn't open the door for me or motion me ahead of him, I'm certainly not offended. Heck, I usually don't even notice.

First off; you're in Mesa, I'm in Scottsdale. This isn't pouring rain.

Cold, overcast sky, continuous drizzle. Seems like a perfectly normal English summer day.

But back to your point: I'll hold the door open for anyone that I see is coming behind me, male or female doesn't concern me. It's just a matter of being polite.

V.

 

[CelticRose]

In Florida, at least half the time I hold the door for a man, they will not pass through as though a woman holding the door for a man is some social sin. Of course the women will still walk right through and on a good day they will acknowledge that I am even there. On a bad day, I get stuck as the door holder as the equivilent of a clown car passes through the door way and no one else will grab the door.

That's pretty much the way it is in Arizona too.

I gave up trying to hold the door for guys because it freaks them out so much. It's particularly bad with older men. I always feel bad when some little old man who can barely stand motions me ahead of him. But there's nothing I can do but thank him and go ahead as quickly as possible so that he doesn't have to stay on his feet too long.

 

[theprestige]

I just like to be nice in return, if they'll let me.

IMO, the nicest thing to do is smile, say thank you, and accept the nice gesture without further ado.

Anything that says "I refuse to accept your nice gesture, instead I insist that you accept mine" is almost certainly less nice than simply appreciating the gesture and paying it forward some time down the road.

Stalling the boarding process, in the rain, in order to put nice people on the spot and force them between choosing to abandon their gesture or insisting upon it, is... not very nice.

 

[CelticRose]

First off; you're in Mesa, I'm in Scottsdale. This isn't pouring rain.

Cold, overcast sky, continuous drizzle. Seems like a perfectly normal English summer day.

If you've lived in this area for any length of time you should know that it's quite common for it to be perfectly dry in one part of the Valley while it's coming a flood in another. (evidences) It was pouring rain where I was.

Besides, this is Arizona. What we call a downpour others would call a "nice soft day". [/Arizona native]

 

[JamesDillon]

Well it ain't surprising either way. Park Slope also have the parents who think it is oppressive not to allow children to hang out in bars with their trendy mom and dads because it's just a social construct. So is bathing and dressing decently apparently. (Not directing that at you! I don't know ya, but I'm sure you've seen what I mean)

I don't know what the boy's hat debacle is. Off to google.


LMAO

Yep sounds about right.


http://gawker.com/166214/the-park-slope-hat-spat-read-all-the-emails

Yeah, okay, Park Slope has its quirks, but that's all part of the charm I don't know that there's a deficit of bathing and dressing decently, though. The true hippie hipsters are more of a Williamsburg (and Berkeley!) phenomenon; Park Slope gets the more social climber hipsters who may complain about the kids-in-bars rule as socially constructed, but then put on their business casual and file into the Q/R trains for their law and banking jobs every morning.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Any chivalry is too much. If a man would be kind/polite/etc. by opening a door for a lady, why would he not be kind/polite/etc. by opening a door for another man? Or a lady for a man or another lady? If he does open doors for men, then it is not chivalry. If he does not, he is intentionally not being polite to men.

At my office the first person to a door will generally hold it open for a person a few paces behind. Not to the extent that they stand aside and let the other person go first, but enough to save the other person a bit of effort. Gender doesn't matter.

 

[CelticRose]

IMO, the nicest thing to do is smile, say thank you, and accept the nice gesture without further ado.

Anything that says "I refuse to accept your nice gesture, instead I insist that you accept mine" is almost certainly less nice than simply appreciating the gesture and paying it forward some time down the road.

Stalling the boarding process, in the rain, in order to put nice people on the spot and force them between choosing to abandon their gesture or insisting upon it, is... not very nice.

I agree with you completely, but I think you've got the roles reversed a bit.

I stepped back to allow everyone else at the stop to go first as I was the only one with an umbrella. A few guys made no move to go ahead of me, so I told them to go ahead. Some of them refused my gesture and insisted that I go ahead. I pointed out that I had an umbrella and they didn't, and all but one went ahead of me. All this was happening while we were waiting for other people to board the bus, so the boarding process wasn't stalled.

All the women and most of the men had no problem accepting my initial gesture of stepping back to let other, less prepared people board ahead me. It was just these few guys who would rather get all wet than to go ahead of me.

 

[truethat]

You might have just confused them honestly. When there is a line people are expected to sort of follow the line. And if you don't then it gets confusing. I've had it happen when I'm crossing the street and though I have the light I wave to a turning car for them to go and then they wave to me etc etc etc. So it might have more to do with confusion. Also rain is just water, a lot of people don't care as much. You were all wrapped up and seem to think it's a big deal to get wet, they were out in hoodies and obviously didn't care. So you might have made an issue out of something that was nothing.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I agree with you completely, but I think you've got the roles reversed a bit.

I stepped back to allow everyone else at the stop to go first as I was the only one with an umbrella. A few guys made no move to go ahead of me, so I told them to go ahead. Some of them refused my gesture and insisted that I go ahead. I pointed out that I had an umbrella and they didn't, and all but one went ahead of me. All this was happening while we were waiting for other people to board the bus, so the boarding process wasn't stalled.

All the women and most of the men had no problem accepting my initial gesture of stepping back to let other, less prepared people board ahead me. It was just these few guys who would rather get all wet than to go ahead of me.

Occam's Razor suggests the simplest solution is that they wanted to admire your posterior.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Occam's Razor suggests the simplest solution is that they wanted to admire your posterior.

No, Occam's Razor suggests that she is lying, and neither the men nor the bus ever existed. That is far more parsimonious than hypothesizing literally dozens of entities just to satisfy the single data point of one anonymous forum anecdote.

 

[CelticRose]

You might have just confused them honestly. When there is a line people are expected to sort of follow the line. And if you don't then it gets confusing. I've had it happen when I'm crossing the street and though I have the light I wave to a turning car for them to go and then they wave to me etc etc etc. So it might have more to do with confusion. Also rain is just water, a lot of people don't care as much. You were all wrapped up and seem to think it's a big deal to get wet, they were out in hoodies and obviously didn't care. So you might have made an issue out of something that was nothing.

Lol, Arizonans have never mastered the art of lining up to get on a bus. Everybody sits on benches or mills around until the bus comes, and then there's a sort of mob (without pushing or shoving) toward the bus and the first one who gets there first boards the bus first. Sometimes, the elderly, infirm, and pregnant women will be allowed to board first, other times, not.

Occam's Razor suggests the simplest solution is that they wanted to admire your posterior.

LMAO!!

 

[CelticRose]

Occam's Razor suggests the simplest solution is that they wanted to admire your posterior.

No, Occam's Razor suggests that she is lying, and neither the men nor the bus ever existed. That is far more parsimonious than hypothesizing literally dozens of entities just to satisfy the single data point of one anonymous forum anecdote.

Actually, if you want to go all scientific method here, I have to point out that TM's theory ignores the fact that I was wearing a full-length coat that hid my posterior from view.

 

[Stacko]

Okay, so I'm waiting at the bus stop in the pouring down rain with a bunch of other people. I've just been grocery shopping, but I've got most of my stuff in my backpack and another waterproof bag with the rest wrapped in several layers of plastic grocery bags (yes, I will recycle them), so none of my stuff is getting wet. I'm wearing a full-length coat, a hat, gloves, boots, and I'm carrying an umbrella. I'm as dry as one can reasonably be in a steady downpour.

When the bus comes, several guys, none of whom are carrying an umbrella and most of whose raingear consists of only a hoodie or a jacket, try to motion me ahead of them in the line to get on the bus.

Now, to me this is just plain silly. I mean, I generally like chivalry, and I appreciate it when guys make those polite gestures and I always thank them nicely. However, it makes no sense for a guy to stand in the pouring down rain for my sake when I'm not even getting wet.

I did manage to convince all but one of them that it really made more sense for them to go ahead of me since they were getting wet and I wasn't.

So, guys, what do you think about this? Should common sense or politeness prevail in such situations?

Was there a rain shelter at the bus stop? I've been caught at a few in my city that don't have any and with our bus schedule there's no way I'll be sitting because I'm soaked through by the time the bus gets there. At that point I know I'm standing so all I care about is being near an exit to get home to change ASAP which being last on helps with.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Actually, if you want to go all scientific method here, I have to point out that TM's theory ignores the fact that I was wearing a full-length coat that hid my posterior from view.

Some posteriors are so shapely they cannot be hidden by such means, their glory shines right through, proclaiming itself to all the world!

 

[CelticRose]

Was there a rain shelter at the bus stop? I've been caught at a few in my city that don't have any and with our bus schedule there's no way I'll be sitting because I'm soaked through by the time the bus gets there. At that point I know I'm standing so all I care about is being near an exit to get home to change ASAP which being last on helps with.

No rain shelter, which unfortunately isn't uncommon around here.

Not sure how your buses are organized, but around here being last on would actually reduce one's chances of being near an exit since by the time you got on there would be 2 or 3 people standing in the exit doorway blocking the doorway whenever someone tries to disembark.