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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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The "narrative analyst" bit is said tongue in cheek Jay, don't you get it?....It was intended as a joke. What the heck is a "narrative analyst"? It doesn't make any sense........

No, the "intended as a joke" line didn't work before, and it doesn't work now. Especially when you've spent several posts trying to play up the supposed authority of "narrative analysis."

Yes, I agree it doesn't make any sense to try to impeach physical and scientific proof with "narrative analysis." So what is it that you think you're doing?
 
same to you Jay, the messages are relayed....And if they wanted to play it cute, it would be an easy thing to have the messages coded on the way in and decoded, sent loud and clear on the trip back out, piece of cake really....l.

So now you're claiming that before the Moon was instrumented, it was instrumented to hide the attempt at instrumentation? In case it's not obvious, you're not a very good judge of what's a "piece of cake." Or parsimonious.

As soon as you supply proof for the alleged relay stations on the lunar surface and in lunar orbit, we can start debating this latest claim.
 
Ever been to Beijing? Shanghai, Saint Petersburg, New York, Paris, London?

OK, You're still saying the map was wrong, so the landing was faked.

Right.

First, even if you're right (you're not), you're falling into the trap of "B follows A, C follows B, therefore A caused C."

Second, why do you need an accurate map? All you need, as shown long ago, is the relative position of the LM and the CSM.

Quite frankly, if this were a conversation in any setting other than this forum, you'd have been excluded long ago. Even to a layman like me, it's been abindantly clear you don't know what you're talking about.

Speaking of that, how's the lightning strike study coming along? And what about those rocks?

Ever been to Beijing? Shanghai, Saint Petersburg, New York, Paris, London?

One needs a good map to find his or her away around for the first time especially. These guys were going to the moon and there map was VERY inaccurate given the circumstances, the precision required , DEMANED NO LESS BY THIS SITUATION.

The surfboard shaped landing ellipse is 10 miles long by 3 miles wide at its center. The center is the area the astronauts "had studied", pretended to study anyway, as have the rest of the Apollo Program team studied the center most intently as well. The longitude lines are displaced 1.48 miles to the west and the map is rotated intentionally/fraudulently with the expressed purpose of deciving, the expressed intent to mislead and confound, confound the Apollo workers themselves, a' la the gaming of FIDO H. David Reed and his FLIGHT DYNAMICS team.

The alleged cross range winds up being 1.7 miles south of Collins, per the Apollo 11 Mission Report itelf. See NASA-S-69-3715, ellipse image with crossrange marked toward the end of the Mission Report Section 5. The coordinates Collins is told to search about for his colleagues are for the most part quite distant from the coordinates reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report for MSFN, AGS, PGNS solutions for the latitude and longitude.

You are welcome to your opinion, by all means Suspilot, but the objective data continues to mount against your side. As I said, every one of these facts with respect must FIT and fit exactly as the story was told for Apollo 11's official story to hold up as authentic. As far as the landing site issue goes, the story has full blown collapsed Suspilot. I like it no more than anyone, but I ain't running from the truth here as you guys are.

Sorry, I am just the messenger here. I did not perpetrate this nonsense.......
 
No...... the doctored LAM-2 map is fatal to the official version of things...

No, you simply don't know how maps are made. And your personal subjective opinions have no value as a standard of proof.

This is the beauty of being on this side of the fence haibut. IF WE FIND ONE THING, ONLY ONE THING OUT OF LINE LIKE A LAM-2 MAP, the official story cannot tolerate it.

No, Patrick. That's now how proof works. A theory that fails to explain all the pertinent evidence is a non-starter. It's not even a theory; it's an abortive hypothesis. Only after a hypothesis explains all the pertinent observations can it be compared against other equally explanatory hypotheses to see whether it is the best one. You haven't even made it to the starting line yet.
 
I am of course doing science here.

Not even close, but thanks for "playing". :)


I claim to be a medical expert as you are well aware.
...and we give that claim as much "weight" as your other claims...


My opinion as regards the Borman case should be viewed as authoritative.....
How convenient...you are your own authority...proving yourself correct.

You of course know that is not how science is done...
 
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The term is used tongue in cheek of course......

I am of course doing science here. I claim to be a medical expert as you are well aware. My opinion as regards the Borman case should be viewed as authoritative.....

Wait a minute - you said:

...snip

Narrative analysis proves Apollo 11 fraudulent, and that includes proving the material evidence to be "fraudulent" as well. Though with regard to the material evidence, it is fraudulent in a special sense.

...snip

As I mentioned before, I am more like a theater critic than anything and I specialize in plot credibility and performance. This plot is NOT believable and these are very very very very very very very bad actors.

Do you see why no one believes you? There are experts in the field posting in this thread - are you trying to convince the experts of your position? Or is this just sport?
 
Apollo rocks have physical characteristics that the meteorites don't and that can't be replicated by earthly means, specifically 'zap pits' on the surface produced by the continual bombardment of the lunar surface by micrometeoric dust. these features are destroyed by the heat and friction of entering the Earth's atmosphere..

From description of sample 12002

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/12002.pdf

Hartung et al. (1975) studied the details of
micrometeorite pits on the surface of 12002, including
solar flare track densities in the spall areas of relatively
large zap pits, to try to get the age of zap pits. They
also studied micromounds of metallic iron on the
surface, concluding that they were of meteorite origin
by the Ni and Co contnet
 
The term is used tongue in cheek of course......

I am of course doing science here. I claim to be a medical expert as you are well aware. My opinion as regards the Borman case should be viewed as authoritative.....

No, it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are no more an "expert" in medicine than you are in anything else in this thread.

You haven't even the most basic knowledge of immunology and virology.

We can safely ignore any pronouncement of yours concerning medicine.
 
One needs a good map...

Lets stop this right now...NO MORE MAPS. We've moved on from there..please "catch up".

You are welcome to your opinion, by all means Suspilot, but the objective data continues to mount against your side.

How many times....THERE ARE NO "SIDES". There is the reality of established facts, and there is your fantasy...Can you understand what I am saying, here, because I can't understand why you would repeat something you've already "tried and failed" with.


I did not perpetrate this nonsense.......

What are you talking about??....OF COURSE YOU DO. You done nothing other than present your "how I would run the railroad" nonsense since the beginning of this thread.

It's all YOUR nonsense...either own it, or retract the claims you have made.
 
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Ever been to Beijing? Shanghai, Saint Petersburg, New York, Paris, London?

One needs a good map to find his or her away around for the first time especially. These guys were going to the moon and there map was VERY inaccurate given the circumstances, the precision required , DEMANED NO LESS BY THIS SITUATION.

The surfboard shaped landing ellipse is 10 miles long by 3 miles wide at its center. The center is the area the astronauts "had studied", pretended to study anyway, as have the rest of the Apollo Program team studied the center most intently as well. The longitude lines are displaced 1.48 miles to the west and the map is rotated intentionally/fraudulently with the expressed purpose of deciving, the expressed intent to mislead and confound, confound the Apollo workers themselves, a' la the gaming of FIDO H. David Reed and his FLIGHT DYNAMICS team.

The alleged cross range winds up being 1.7 miles south of Collins, per the Apollo 11 Mission Report itelf. See NASA-S-69-3715, ellipse image with crossrange marked toward the end of the Mission Report Section 5. The coordinates Collins is told to search about for his colleagues are for the most part quite distant from the coordinates reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report for MSFN, AGS, PGNS solutions for the latitude and longitude.

You are welcome to your opinion, by all means Suspilot, but the objective data continues to mount against your side. As I said, every one of these facts with respect must FIT and fit exactly as the story was told for Apollo 11's official story to hold up as authentic. As far as the landing site issue goes, the story has full blown collapsed Suspilot. I like it no more than anyone, but I ain't running from the truth here as you guys are.

Sorry, I am just the messenger here. I did not perpetrate this nonsense.......

Been to London, New York, St. Petersburg, FL, and a bunch of other places. More importantly, I've had to fly down to 200 feet above the ground before I could see the landing runway, lots of times - that takes precision, both in charting and in flying. I can also put an aircraft within 50 feet of a point along the length of a runway, with no lateral error, known as an accuracy, or spot, landing. The equivilant of flying to a spot landing in the Apollo program was achieved with Apollo 12, using what was learned on missions 8, 10, and 11.

However, that's not really the issue, is it? As people who have more knowledge than me and far more than you have pointed out, all you need to successfully rendezvous is knowing the relative position of the two spacecraft with respect to each other. That sets the launch window. In this case, if the Apollo 11 LM and CSM were anywhere on the near side of the Moon, I think a successful docking could have been achieved.
 
Please correct my understanding of law. The plaintiff has the overall burden of proof, yes. The defense may undermine the strength of that proof to create reasonable doubt. Or the defense may also make an affirmative case that something else better explains the plaintiff's evidence, if not the defendant's actions. When the defense chooses that strategy, does not the defense bear the burden to prove the affirmed alternative?


If I said anything different, I appologize. This is what I meant. P1k's proposition that there were no manned landings bears only the burden of creating logical, rational, reasonable doubt of the entire Apollo program overall. His counter-theories, though, must be proven by him.


In historical circles, any accusation of fraud or forgery bears the burden of proof -- period.


Jebus Christmas, JU. Just sometimes for the sake of the egos of those around you could you at least pretend to not know something



My point was/is, assume all of the rocks to be authentic, they all came from the moon, maybe NASA got some penguins to help them find the rocks like drug sniffing dogs you know, lunar stone sniffing penguins.


Patrick, are you saying that most or all lunar samples are from lunar meteorites that hit the earth?

If not, what percentage and or weight of lunar samples do you believe were collected on the moon and returned to earth by any means?

Do you know the geological differences noted on moon meteorites as compared to lunar samples returned from the moon?

Do you believe any people have ever walked on the moon, sent by any country at any time for any purpose?


One thing we do know with absolute certainty is that Armstrong did not collect the stones. How do we know that? Because Michael Collins flew with a map that had the center of its landing ellipse representation intentionally mislabelled with regard to the targeted landing site.


Patrick, do you claim that the Apollo 11 map "problem" means that none of the Apollo missions ever put himans on the moon? Regardless of the map, do you believe hte Apollo missions ever at any point put any astronauts on the moon?

As such, one can say with utterly absolute unmitigated metaphysical certitude


You're using the word metaphysical wrong. You have been for quite some time.


Can't go to the moon without a real map now can ya' SpitfireIX? Of course ya' can't.


Why not?


The difference is that one of those is a real occupation; the other one isn't.


Narative analyst can be a real occupation. Movie and book critics do narrative analysis. So do producers and script doctors. However, what a narrative analyist cannot do is determine if the narrative is truthful.

Take, for example. the book A Million Little Pieces. (I never read it.) Many critics liked the book. They enjoyed the narrative. They liked seeing a protagonist who was his own worst antagonist. However, what the critics could not do was detect that the book was fiction. That job fell to actual investigative journalists.

If P1k were a real narrative analyst, he'd have to agree that the entire space program is a great narrative.


The term is used tongue in cheek of course......

I am of course doing science here. I claim to be a medical expert as you are well aware. My opinion as regards the Borman case should be viewed as authoritative.....


Only if your claim is true.

Question #1

Which of the following procedures would be the most sensitive in detecting early iron overload?

a. Quantitative iron determination in a liver biopsy specimen
b. Urinary iron excretion in response to a test dose of desferrioxamine
c. cerum ferriten concentration
d. Serum iron concentration, total iron binding capacity, and calculated transferrin saturation
e.Iron stain of a bone marrow aspirate


Question #2

Which of the following statements best characterizes the hemolysis associated with glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency?

a. It is more severe in affected blacks than in affected persons of Mediterranean ancestry
b. It is more severe in females than in males
c. It causes the appearance of Heinz bodies on Wright staining of a peripheral smear
d. It most often is precipitatied by infection
e. The best time to perform the diagnostic test is during a hemolytic crisis




Question #3

A 53 year old woman presents to the emergency room with abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, hypotensive, tachycardia and disoriented. A FSG check comes back as >500. You quickly get a urine sample and analyze it with a dipstick. It shows the following results:

Specific Gravity=1.005/pH=5.5/1+protein/4+glucose/+ketones/0 RBC,WBC, epithelials cells.

You promptly get IV access and draw the necessary blood studies. Your next step would be to:

a.Give a Normal Saline bolus and run IV fluids wide open
b. Do (1) and give 10 units of regular insulin IV and start an insulin drip at 0.1units/kg/hr
c. Do (1) and give 10 units of NPH and start an insulin drip at 0.1 units/kg/hr
d. Do (1) and start on Diabeta 10 mg
e. Do (1) await lab results and observe

And, please, no cheating.



This is the beauty of being on this side of the fence haibut. IF WE FIND ONE THING, ONLY ONE THING OUT OF LINE LIKE A LAM-2 MAP, the official story cannot tolerate it.


Actually, you're quite wrong. While it is true that the truth is and must be consistent with itself at all times, the same is not the case for historical truth. Within that world, we find inconsistency all the time. There are several reasons but, most usually, our model of past behavior is almost never detailed enough. Nor is our understanding of human motivation.

This is why courts accept standards of proof that are far, far lower than mathematical certainty or even scientific certainty. Look at the things historians cannot explain: In their last thousand years, Neanderthals adopted art, religion and all of the other signs of cro-magnon society and they were still rendered extinct. Witnesses to the Holocaust shared tales of lampshades made from human skin, yet no such object has ever been linked back to any Nazi. It is thought that Marilyn Monroe had an affair with John Kennedy but evidence putting them alone together is scant.

Reality does not present as either pretty or problem-free. Apparant contradictions can and do exist.


I am quite consistant.....Apollo was a nonmanned program to weaponize space. The astronauts are actors, not real spacefarers. Essentially everyone involved, all 400,000 , with the exception of very very very few, buy ain and believe this to be really a manned program. It is that aspect of the con that makes the thing work, the effectiveness of "duping the Apollo workers from the inside" if you will.


Why? Wouldn't the American people have been happy sending cool robots to the moon? The Russians were nowhere near a manned landing. We could have held off for years. Why was there any need for a cover-up at all? Patriotic spirit has been invoked more by images of war than of science experiments. Wouldn't Americans have loved knowing we had robots protecting us on the moon?


Ever been to Beijing? Shanghai, Saint Petersburg, New York, Paris, London?

One needs a good map to find his or her away around for the first time especially.


True. Do you know why? Because there's lots and lots of stuff in those cities. The moon, on the other hand, is almost entirely deviod of highways, skyscrapers, back alleys, wax museums or anything else.
.

You are welcome to your opinion, by all means Suspilot, but the objective data continues to mount against your side. As I said, every one of these facts with respect must FIT and fit exactly as the story was told for Apollo 11's official story to hold up as authentic.


If that were so, then why were so many mistakes made? Why no pictures of Armstrong (or somebody pretending to be him)? Why the map "mistake"? Why pretend to fly a mission with a sick Borman? Why pretend Apollo 13 failed? Why do things that would expose the narative to scrutiny.?
 
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Jebus Christmas, JU. Just sometimes for the sake of the egos of those around you could you at least pretend to not know something.

If it's a scientific, space related, or engineering question, I haven't seen him "stumped" in the last (almost) 10 years.

You get used to that after you've "known" Jay for a while...and he'll be the 1st to admit that there are "gaps" in his overall knowledge...

Don't ask him about baseball...:)


Aside...you don't have an encyclopedic knowledge about baseball, do you Jay. :)
 
I am quite consistant.....Apollo was a nonmanned program to weaponize space. The astronauts are actors, not real spacefarers. Essentially everyone involved, all 400,000 , with the exception of very very very few, buy ain and believe this to be really a manned program. It is that aspect of the con that makes the thing work, the effectiveness of "duping the Apollo workers from the inside" if you will.

Um...why?

I mean, many of these guys were test pilots. Many were military. They'd already had careers of putting their lives on the line to achieve a military goal.

If I was going to put bombs/radar stations/whatever on the Moon, I wouldn't try to design a robot several degrees more sophisticated than any that had been successfully landed before. Instead I'd send some guys.

Your conditional of "unmanned" makes no sense within your narrative of militarization of space.
 
Ever been to Beijing? Shanghai, Saint Petersburg, New York, Paris, London?

Three out of six, and I'll match you Bangkok, Berlin, and Tokyo.

I'm real into maps. I explored Berlin with two maps plus a notebook filled with route information. But I also navigated large parts of Tokyo with nothing but a scribbled copy of a low-resolution gif of some locations from an old anime. And I wandered Bangkok with nothing but the aid of tuk-tuk drivers (who if nothing else are very good at steering you towards shops they are friendly with).

For many of my explorations, the copy of the subway routes posted on the wall of the station was my major guide. For many parts of Paris, for instance, I had nothing but a short list of transfer stations and line names. No carried map was necessary nor appropriate.

The statement "maps are nice to have" in no way specifies the kind of map that is required, nor when it needs to be applied.

One needs a good map to find his or her away around for the first time especially. These guys were going to the moon and there map was VERY inaccurate given the circumstances, the precision required , DEMANED NO LESS BY THIS SITUATION.

The surfboard shaped landing ellipse is 10 miles long by 3 miles wide at its center. The center is the area the astronauts "had studied", pretended to study anyway, as have the rest of the Apollo Program team studied the center most intently as well. The longitude lines are displaced 1.48 miles to the west and the map is rotated intentionally/fraudulently with the expressed purpose of deciving, the expressed intent to mislead and confound, confound the Apollo workers themselves, a' la the gaming of FIDO H. David Reed and his FLIGHT DYNAMICS team.

The alleged cross range winds up being 1.7 miles south of Collins, per the Apollo 11 Mission Report itelf. See NASA-S-69-3715, ellipse image with crossrange marked toward the end of the Mission Report Section 5. The coordinates Collins is told to search about for his colleagues are for the most part quite distant from the coordinates reported in the Apollo 11 Mission Report for MSFN, AGS, PGNS solutions for the latitude and longitude.

You are welcome to your opinion, by all means Suspilot, but the objective data continues to mount against your side. As I said, every one of these facts with respect must FIT and fit exactly as the story was told for Apollo 11's official story to hold up as authentic. As far as the landing site issue goes, the story has full blown collapsed Suspilot. I like it no more than anyone, but I ain't running from the truth here as you guys are.

Sorry, I am just the messenger here. I did not perpetrate this nonsense.......

You haven't demonstrated that the navigational aids carried were inappropriate. You've only demonstrated that you are unable to personally read them.
 
Big Time Map Fraud Proof....

You really, really need to read up on map projections.

As I've pointed out before the LAM2 flown map (UTM) and the Grollier map (transverse mercator) use different projection systems and datums which, in part, will result in the 'rotation' and coordinate shift that you seem to find so diabolical.

Really, when you work with maps and airphoto or satellite imagery all the time, datum shifts, affine transformations, projection changes, scale shifts, false origins and rotations are just every day occurences.

The Lunar Orbiter II image(s) of Tranquility Base, theApollo 11 Flown LAM-2 Map of Michael Collins, ASA 11-37-5447 and Harland's well known rotated and modified ellipse image are almost certainly ALL DERIVED FROM THE SAME ORIGINAL/COMMON SOURCE/COMMON NEGATIVE.

As our resident well respected map specialist/expert, I'll address this one to you Laton as I am confident you shall pursue my recommendation with enthusiasm, but all should give this exercise in Apollo 11 Mission fraudulence demonstration a try. To say this is rather revealing would be the understaement of the new millenium.

Go to the Lunar and Panetary Insitute web site to see the Lunar Orbiter II photos/images;

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/

Go to frame 2087 and down load that;

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/frame/?2087

You can work with this image on your computer, or print it up and work with ruler and compass as you please. I am old fashioned and still use a slide rule. I printed up this image and worked with it employing a compass, precision EKG callipers, ruler and did my calculations first with a slide rule and then checked them with a hand held electronic calculator. Details regarding what measurements and calulations I am recommending for this exercise and proof of Apollo 11 fraud will be found below.

Now go to the Apollo image library;

http://next.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/images11.html#Maps

There you will find more images than you can shake a stick at, not to mention shake a pole at which props up an American flag for a fake landing ceremony.

You'll want to work with the famous/infamous LAM-2 Flown Map of Michael Collins;

http://next.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/LAM2_CMP-flown.jpg

And also, Magazine 37/R 5447

http://next.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-37-5447HR.jpg

Finally, David Harland's rotated and enlarged 5347 image with ellipse overlay;

http://next.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/ALS-2_vertical_w-ellipse.jpg

Lunar orbiter II was launched November 6, 1966. The lunar orbiting craft snapped 211 photos between November 18 and 25. Some photos it is claimed were "lost" in their transmisson to earth.

The Apollo images referenced above, and which you should if/as interested download, of course were alleged to have been taken on the big day of the first lunar landing, 07/20/1969, this, over two and a half years from the time of the Orbiter's storied voyage and historic photo collection adventure.

Note the similarities in the shadowing in all of the images, that would not mean so much were it not for this...........

Using tools of your choosing, take measurements of exacting precision between various landmarks on all of the images. THOUGH THE DISTANCES BETWEEN THE LANDMARKS WILL VARY, THE RATIOS OF THE DISTANCES FOR ANY GIVEN MAP/IMAGE ARE PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO THE LANDMARK DISTANCE RATIOS OF ALL THE OTHER IMAGES/MAPS.

One may conclude that in all likelihood the Lunar Orbiter II image(s) of the Tranquility Base area, the Apollo LAM-2 Flown Map of Michael Collins, and the Apollo 11 images referenced above and allegedly taken on 07/20/1969 ALL DERIVE FROM A COMMON ANCESTOR, COMMON NEGATIVE, THE LUNAR ORBITER IMAGE OF NOVEMBER 1966. This cannot be otherwise for the only way that these ratios could otherwise possibly match up like this would be if the Orbiter and Eagle snapped photos from the exact same point in space under the same lighting conditions. A higher or lower orbit for one of the birds, a yaw this way or that would yield different ratios for the images.

As such is NOT the case, one may conclude now with near certainty, and full certainty pending confirmatory measurements of ever more exacting precision, that all of these images, that of 1966 and those allegedly taken in 1969, are derived from the original 1966 Orbiter II image, and as such, the Apollo 11 Mission images said to have been obtained during a manned lunar mission are indeed fraudulent, doctored to look relatively more "high rezish" ect..

Download the Apollo 11 LAM-2 Flown Map of Michael Collins, the Lunar Orbiter II image and the Apollo 11 Mission images referenced above. Hopefully the links will all work and get you there presto. I'll check them to be sure they are OK, and if there is a problem , I will fix the links.

Take your time and do as precise measurements as you can. Calculate ratios of distances for the various maps, and think through and confirm the simple logic of it all for yourself Laton. Others motivated enough to do this themselves are so encouraged. It will moon rock your worlds......

As I have been saying, this party is long over my friends, long long long over.....
 
The term is used tongue in cheek of course......

I am of course doing science here. I claim to be a medical expert as you are well aware. My opinion as regards the Borman case should be viewed as authoritative.....

Sorry Patrick, but you are not "doing science" in this thread. We are well aware that you claim medical expertise, but you have not shown any.

You also claimed to have done some work on the moon rocks. I would love to see your analysis or "narrative analysis" of them.
 
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