Wholly Natrualistic Alternative To Neo-Darwinism?

I cant see how the Tractatus, or indeed Witty's later language-game stuff, tells us anything about biology. Language, logic, and to some extent epistemology, sure, but not biology. Am interested in your viewpoint here though - can you explain?
 
I have. Cause and effect. The universe exists and is ordered; hence it has an intelligent cause.

The principles involved such as gravity, chemistry, physics, etc,....all do indicate design. The issue is not whether there is a Designer. That's abundantly evident.

The issue is how the Designer acts, acted or continues to act, or not.


Do you really fail to realise what utter nonsense your words are?

You seem to be trotting out one of the numerous creationist versions of William Paley’s idiotic and ignorant old religious nonsense about finding a pocket watch.

Just because you think something looks “ordered”, does not mean it was deliberately made by anyone.

Eg, most solid chemical compounds exist in the form of crystals, which are highly ordered structures. But that’s clearly not due to the action of any god. And before you try to make the absurd claim that crystals are all made by god - if you take two chemical compounds in a flask of liquid solvent, then you can “create” crystals in the flask merely by evaporating some of the solvent … if you think that must mean God is somehow acting inside the flask to cause the crystallization, then sadly it just proves that you have some very serious problems of religious self delusion :(.

Have you ever published your evidence for God as the grand designer of anything? Have you, or anyone, ever published it in a genuine scientific research journal? No? Why not?
 
What is "pain" ?.....What is "vertigo"....???

I cant see how the Tractatus, or indeed Witty's later language-game stuff, tells us anything about biology. Language, logic, and to some extent epistemology, sure, but not biology. Am interested in your viewpoint here though - can you explain?

What is "pain" ?.....What is "vertigo"....?

I am a medical doctor in real life dogjones. I do primarily hospital based work in a big fancy urban tertiary care center. I'll present a real live case here for you dogjones, you can play doctor/philosopher with me, and together we shall explore this very interesting issue.

I am what is called a "nocturnist", a night time hospital specialist. During the often busy evenings at our medical center, it is not uncommon for someone first evaluated in the emergency room(ED or ER) to be found sick enough that hospitalization is required. In such cases, the ER physician calls me and I go down to the emergency department to do my own evaluation, see if I agree with the ER doc's assessment, and assuming I too think the patient needs to come in, I "bring him/her upstairs with me", and we go from there.

One evening last week I was called by the ED doc to come down and evaluate a 61 year old Caucasian woman. She had been out to lunch with some friends and shortly after lunch became exceedingly vertiginous and profoundly nauseated. This, for no apparent reason. She was outside and the world was spinning spinning spinning around her. She was so symptomatic that she had to brace herself, lean up against a wall so that she would not fall down. Paramedics were summoned and she was brought to our emergency department.

The patient was given medication for nausea and also for vertigo per se by the ED staff. She improved. Somewhat surprisingly, according to the ED doc anyway, her symptoms resolved completely. The vertigo and associated nausea were gone by the time I got down to the ED to see what was up.

The ED doc told me he was just about to send the patient home when he noticed that the patient's "troponin level" measurement had a value of 0.17. "Upper normal" of a blood troponin level for our lab is 0.07, so we were looking at 2 and one half times that. Not a huge number as troponin elevations go, but still nothing to ignore. With a big heart attack you can see a troponin of 10 or even higher still. Troponin is a chemical found inside your heart and pretty much only inside your heart. If some troponin has "leaked" into your blood, it means you have had a heart attack. Other things can cause troponin to go up, but heart attack is the big one, the main one, and for the purpose of my real life example and you dogjones, there is no need to consider the alternative explanations for troponin elevation here.

I spoke to the ED physician and he said he couldn't send this patient out with a troponin of 0.17 and wanted me to keep her overnight to be sure this wasn't a heart attack in evolution. The lady had no prior cardiac disease history, and she had no risk factors for a coronary artery disease related problem; family history, diabetes, smoking, hypertension, high cholesterol. She was not viewed as one to likely have a problem in this regard.

If we are assessing someone for a heart attack, we measure their troponin every 6 hours. If the number climbs, regardless of how the patient feels, we have got a problem. In this case, the ED doc said the patient was symptom free now, no vertigo, no nausea, and he only wanted me to keep the patient over night for observation. "What would vertigo have to do with a myocardial infarction anyway?", the ED doc said to me. It was only 3 hours from the time of the patient's blood draw that gave the troponin value of 0.07, but I asked the ER staff to draw the blood again immediately. If the troponin measurement was high on the repeat draw, we would admit the patient even though she was now well, at least per the ED doc. It sounded as though this, the troponin elevation, might have been a lab error, or just one of those things.....The ED doc loved my idea and was expecting the redraw to come back normal. The patient's EKG looked normal with one small, very very very subtle exception.

The troponin redraw came back at 1.98, A HEART ATTACK!!!!! Now it was my turn to speak with the patient.

She was a sweet lady, lived with her sister not far from me. She had a job in a boutique that she just quit because she could not do gift wrapping satisfactorily and this lead to a crazy tension between her and her boss. SHE HAD MARKED ANXIETY OVER THIS PROBLEM AND THAT ANXIETY LEAD TO HER QUITTING. In the context of her difficulties, her gift wrapping anxieties, the patient had noticed for the last 2 months episodes of "indigestion" from time to time, and as a matter of fact, she had experienced the indigestion that very day, the day of the vertigo with the nausea. The indigestion would last minutes to hours and at times be associated with subtle chest pressure/pain as it was that very day. She was describing what doctors call an "anginal equivalent". Heart angina, "pain" due to poor blood flow through the heart, but not typical in its "experiential qualities". We typically do not associate indigestion with angina, so we say "anginal equivalent" dogjones.

Vertigo, nausea, indigestion, chest pain however subtle or profound, ANXIETY, all of these symptoms most would view as PRIVATE OBJECTS. Common sense tells us that these are things we point to inwardly and describe with words of a private language; "vertigo", "nausea", "indigestion", "chest pain", "ANXIETY", in the way that we point to oranges, and chairs and televisions and fish and airplanes in the third person world that we all inhabit/share and name them with the public words; "chairs", "televisions", "fish" and "airplanes".

Is vertigo a private object denoted by the private word "vertigo" in the same way, albeit a first person way, that the word "apple" denotes an instance of that piece of fruit, the apple, which we all know so well as it exists in our shared third person world?

Wittgenstein says there is no such thing as a private language, and he says we most decidedly are NOT NOT NOT referring to private objects with private words as we do refer to third person objects like apples in our third person world at large. It is a logical impossibility and the case he makes is insanely persuasive. But if he is correct, what was that lady talking about? What was my patient telling me? What then is vertigo, nausea, anxiety, indigestion, chest pain????????? I understood this lady perfectly well. Indeed, I made an accurate diagnosis of coronary artery disease based on her history, HER STORY TELLING, HER SYMPTOM TELLING.

I give so much detail to emphasize this is very much NOT crackpot stuff. It is a MEANINGFUL AND IMPORTANT part of our lives, the language of sensation.

So what is vertigo, anxiety, nausea, indigestion, pain and what are we doing with the words "vertigo", "anxiety", "nausea", "indigestion", "pain" in the context of our talking to one another and even talking to ourselves about our sensations whatever they may be? Are we naming private objects, or doing something else entirely? What ever we are doing, it most decidedly has something to do with biology. Nausea, anxiety, pain, they are biological, are they not?
 
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Randman is trying to point out we all must begin with assumptions. Certain things have to be taken as given, otherwise one cannot begin to discuss ANYTHING IN ANY SENSE.

I think you are being unfair. Randman's points in this regard are quite valid.....

But he's making many assumptions. I would object that he's failing to convey a coherent position.
 
Biology does not trump philosophy Dinwar.
And this illustrates why you're having so much trouble in a science subforum. Science doesn't trump philosophy, but philosophy doesn't trump science either. Both are obliged to bow to data. And the data DO NOT support your notions, as has been explained ad nauseum in this thread.

I believe what frustrates you is that it does not work the other way 'round.
I thought you had learned previously that trying to tell me what I believe doesn't work well. In fact, my problem with the "philosophy" you've latched on to is that, if your support of it is any indication, it says nothing about the real world. It may be a fantastic philosophy for some made-up fantasy land, but hear in reality it sucks. It contradicts the data, and therefore must be discarded.

With all due respect Dinwar, if I may be so bold, let go a little, turn on the radio, ride a bike, the world is not an equation.
With all due respect, do not presume that you understand how I work. The world isn't an equation, but that's because in my view math is a language. And biology CERTAINLY follows mathematical rules.

Randman has something to say here.
No, he doesn't. randman has been saying the exact same garbage for several threads. And by "exact same garbage" I mean he's made the same errors with the same papers. If you're incapable of seeing that--particularly after we've posted links demonstrating randman's dishonesty and continued use of disproven statements--that speaks volumes about your ability to evaluate philosophers. If you look at his body of posts on this forum honestly, you'll see that the only trend is intellectual dishonesty. You're backing the wrong horse here, Patrick1000.

You know not how you were made, and no one else does for that matter, so give it some space, let randman's views breath a little..........
You are insufferably arrogant, do you know that?

I HAVE given randman's view all due consideration. I've evaluated his data, and have found it not only wanting but outright fraudulent at times. And as for knowing how I was made, yeah, I do. I've even heard the story of my conception (it was a rather odd night....drinking with one's parents is not a hobby for the feint of heart in my family). If you're talking life in general (and since this is an evolution thread, you must be--I've already proven that a system designed by intelligence does not rule out evolution), the only reason you can cling to that sorry platitude is because we don't know which of the numerous working hypotheses is the right one.

How about you learn some biology, eh? Then get back to us. Or just pay attention, nothing in this post is new.

I think you are being unfair. Randman's points in this regard are quite valid.....
You're continuing to support someone who's been caught lying about data numerous times in this thread alone. If you look at his other threads, his record is even more dismal. Think about that for a bit.
 
He is not a crank Lowpro, randman is philosophically grounded....

He works with a different set of assumptions, actually he is more rigorous than most.....

In a sense, he is doing the same thing I was doing earlier with my Wittgenstein, pressing the point that categories of thought outside those viewed as conventionally biologic may shed some light, and quite bright light at that, on the world of biological systems......

The point is, you cannot know yourself Lowpro if you were or were not "made by God", made by the hand of a divine creator. AND if you were, if you are a divine creation, it changes everything about what you or any biologist might say as to who we are, how we were made and what we are fundamentally about.......

No he's a crank because he denies evidence and claims that creation with divine guidance is obvious. How can you say he's philosophically grounded if he's making the same mistakes you are accusing me of now?

EDIT: Oh I see you all have already beaten me to this too, good on ya's
 
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Randman is trying to point out we all must begin with assumptions. Certain things have to be taken as given, otherwise one cannot begin to discuss ANYTHING IN ANY SENSE.

I think you are being unfair. Randman's points in this regard are quite valid.....

Not really, this thread had a precedent to it, so you are not aware of the fallacy history involving front loading and the argument regarding the origin of the higher taxa.

It is a very specious and strawman sort of argument, the lack of citations not withstanding.
 
Fair enough, excellent point......

But he's making many assumptions. I would object that he's failing to convey a coherent position.

Fair enough, excellent point......

But the side of science makes assumptions, takes unprovable givens as place to start, and this is randman's larger point, details aside. So this is a good point on randman's part......
 
The point about Wittgenstein is not that he is correct, it is simply to raise......

And this illustrates why you're having so much trouble in a science subforum. Science doesn't trump philosophy, but philosophy doesn't trump science either. Both are obliged to bow to data. And the data DO NOT support your notions, as has been explained ad nauseum in this thread.

I thought you had learned previously that trying to tell me what I believe doesn't work well. In fact, my problem with the "philosophy" you've latched on to is that, if your support of it is any indication, it says nothing about the real world. It may be a fantastic philosophy for some made-up fantasy land, but hear in reality it sucks. It contradicts the data, and therefore must be discarded.

With all due respect, do not presume that you understand how I work. The world isn't an equation, but that's because in my view math is a language. And biology CERTAINLY follows mathematical rules.

No, he doesn't. randman has been saying the exact same garbage for several threads. And by "exact same garbage" I mean he's made the same errors with the same papers. If you're incapable of seeing that--particularly after we've posted links demonstrating randman's dishonesty and continued use of disproven statements--that speaks volumes about your ability to evaluate philosophers. If you look at his body of posts on this forum honestly, you'll see that the only trend is intellectual dishonesty. You're backing the wrong horse here, Patrick1000.

You are insufferably arrogant, do you know that?

I HAVE given randman's view all due consideration. I've evaluated his data, and have found it not only wanting but outright fraudulent at times. And as for knowing how I was made, yeah, I do. I've even heard the story of my conception (it was a rather odd night....drinking with one's parents is not a hobby for the feint of heart in my family). If you're talking life in general (and since this is an evolution thread, you must be--I've already proven that a system designed by intelligence does not rule out evolution), the only reason you can cling to that sorry platitude is because we don't know which of the numerous working hypotheses is the right one.

How about you learn some biology, eh? Then get back to us. Or just pay attention, nothing in this post is new.

You're continuing to support someone who's been caught lying about data numerous times in this thread alone. If you look at his other threads, his record is even more dismal. Think about that for a bit.

The point about Wittgenstein is not that he is correct. He may well not be. The point is simply that there are other categories of thought which have something to say with regard to what living things are. Life is not biology, and that is obvious to just about everyone except it would seem, most ironically, biologists.......

Arrogant? No.... confident....I am very confident. I always did well in school, especially biology/biochemistry/phisiology and math....
 
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I do not mean "grounded" in the sense of stable....

No he's a crank because he denies evidence and claims that creation with divine guidance is obvious. How can you say he's philosophically grounded if he's making the same mistakes you are accusing me of now?

EDIT: Oh I see you all have already beaten me to this too, good on ya's

I do not mean "grounded" in the sense of stable...I mean randman views the world metaphysically/religiously. It is a different category of thought than scientific thought, different rules apply. It has a different logic.

So is it reasonable for randman to say, "it is obvious this universe was/is a divine creation, AND so we may all agree that divine creation is a fact". No he is not entitled.

But randman is entitled to say there is every bit as much reason to believe divine creation is the case as to believe that there was/is no creator. And my sense is that this is randman's larger point, his main intention. He is pushing to show us science oriented types, myself included, that as much is assumed with a scientifically grounded world view as a religiously grounded one. And there is no court of appeal to which one may go to in terms of it being a place where everything being debated here in this sense will be settled once and for all.
 
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Ok, fair enough.....

Not really, this thread had a precedent to it, so you are not aware of the fallacy history involving front loading and the argument regarding the origin of the higher taxa.

It is a very specious and strawman sort of argument, the lack of citations not withstanding.

Ok, fair enough.....
 
I do not mean "grounded" in the sense of stable...I mean randman views the world metaphysically/religiously. It is a different category of thought than scientific thought, different rules apply. It has a different logic.

So is it reasonable for randman to say, "it is obvious this universe was/is a divine creation, AND so we may all agree that divine creation is a fact". No he is not entitled.

But randman is entitled to say there is every bit as much reason to believe divine creation is the case as to believe that there was/is no creator. And my sense is that this is randman's larger point, his main intention. He is pushing to show us science oriented types, myself included, that as much is assumed with a scientifically grounded world view as a religiously grounded one. And there is no court of appeal to which one may go to in terms of it being a place where everything being debated here in this sense will be settled once and for all.

Entitlement has nothing to do with it. Dinwar summed it up so well that it bears repeating for you.

Dinwar said:
And this illustrates why you're having so much trouble in a science subforum. Science doesn't trump philosophy, but philosophy doesn't trump science either. Both are obliged to bow to data. And the data DO NOT support your notions, as has been explained ad nauseum in this thread.

Your religious or scientific agenda doesn't mean diddlytits. All opinions are criticized against the data to be correct or incorrect. A religious view of divine creation fails out the gate, ESPECIALLY if you have the ego to submit that it was due to a God of historical scripture. If that were the case it's laughably absurd (hint: Genesis is a story more full of crap than a manure farm)
 
Fair enough, excellent point......

But the side of science makes assumptions, takes unprovable givens as place to start, and this is randman's larger point, details aside. So this is a good point on randman's part......

P1K:

  • Who do you mean when you say "the side of science"?

  • What assumptions, and unprovable givens (as place to start) are these?
 
The point is, you cannot know yourself Lowpro if you were or were not "made by God", made by the hand of a divine creator. AND if you were, if you are a divine creation, it changes everything about what you or any biologist might say as to who we are, how we were made and what we are fundamentally about.......

I'd suggest that Randman is a crank, based on the nature of the theological arguments that he brought forth and how badly they fail. That said, what useful knowledge would you propose that we would gain if Last Tuesdayism was correct? What need is there, for that matter, to worry about it? You've argued that we should care about the feelings of the evolution-deniers. I would argue, instead, that we should care about the truth, which they have presented no good reason to think is their version of things, and absolutely stunning amounts of reason to believe that it is not. This isn't Warhammer 40K universe, where Chaos (the "blatantly evil" side) seems, basically, to have been designed to be the manifestation of the fears of the superstitious. Lack of religion does not, in fact, lead to a lack of morality. It does not lead to a loss of all that much, really, even. I'll stop there, though, given that this topic would be better explored in a different forum.

They are linked through time, ALL DIRECT DESCENDENTS OF ONE ANOTHER.

If Dinwar or Wowbagger feels like addressing the snipped, they can. Likely, it's just a case of "What's missing?" or "What do you think is missing, again?"

To nitpick, in Common Descent they are NOT, in fact, all direct descendents of one another. That terminology is very poor for illustrating the concepts involved. After all, saying that a son was the father of his father gets messy. Saying that siblings were each others' parents gets messy. Saying that an elephant was the mother of a canary is messy, too. Rather, a continuous line of ancestry from every modern thing alive on Earth (that wasn't brought here from elsewhere) back to the point or points where abiogenesis occurred (for evolution, the cause is completely irrelevant, whether it be God, simple chemistry, or whatever else, such as an ancestor who was brought here from somewhere else, though that qualification only matters because of the "on Earth" phrase and the concept of Common Descent, and in no way counters evolution) can largely be traced, until the morass of single celled living things comes into play, and almost certainly exists.

He's done worse than that--he's denied existence itself. randman is a philosopher like I'm a dragon bone armor-wearing Norseman.

I don't think he denied existence. Solipsism and similar concepts are interesting like that. They illustrate that from our point of view, all we get is a subjective look at objective truth, but that we can never be perfectly certain that our interpretation is correct, therefore, assumptions are necessary. That said, this, in no way whatsoever, helped him make any point that wasn't this, given that it's a completely useless concept when dealing with practical applications or understandings of how things work.

Randman is trying to point out we all must begin with assumptions. Certain things have to be taken as given, otherwise one cannot begin to discuss ANYTHING IN ANY SENSE.

I think you are being unfair. Randman's points in this regard are quite valid.....

Pointing out the obvious and trying to add assumptions that are, logically, completely unnecessary is not a way to make a good argument. God is not a necessary assumption. The Biblical God is not a necessary assumption, even if God. ID is not necessary, even if God, too.

Randman's points about assumptions are true. His attempts to say that unnecessary assumptions are necessary, however, aren't remotely.

Eg, most solid chemical compounds exist in the form of crystals, which are highly ordered structures. But that’s clearly not due to the action of any god. And before you try to make the absurd claim that crystals are all made by god - if you take two chemical compounds in a flask of liquid solvent, then you can “create” crystals in the flask merely by evaporating some of the solvent … if you think that must mean God is somehow acting inside the flask to cause the crystallization, then sadly it just proves that you have some very serious problems of religious self delusion :(.

Ehh... if God is either deceptive and highly involved (see also FSM) or the universe, itself, (not necessarily limited to the universe, though,) it's quite possible. At that point, though, God as a concept still isn't useful in any scientific sense.
 
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Directed to P1k:

And even then you're equating the assumption of reality by science with the assumption of reality with religion and trying to put them on equal footing. History already proves this to be wrong.

For a large part of human history it WAS assumed that God(s) did exist, and it was their directive to dick with humans in all ways. Some religions even blatantly assumed that all creatures existing on the Earth were put here by God.

That was during Darwin's time, it was called special creation. It became untenable because the assumption that God did all this was unnecessary and completely false when you consider fossilized data, geography, molecular biology, cosmology, climatology, the list goes on.

You cannot equivocate the assumptions of science and religion as far as "what is reality" with the actual demonstrable evidence found by both parties in its entire history (hint, the scales weigh HEAVILY in favor over science)

You are definitely "going nuclear" to quote some other dude who uses that and links the blog to it...
 
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Well the principle of induction for one.......

P1K:

  • Who do you mean when you say "the side of science"?

  • What assumptions, and unprovable givens (as place to start) are these?

Well the principle of induction for one.......

What gives you the right as a scientist to assume tomorrow will be as today was? It is essential to your work.

You assume tomorrow will be as today because today was like yesterday. But surely that cannot be a reasonable ground for assuming tomorrow will be as today because it is an argument based on the very thing one is hoping will be true, that the future will be as the past was.

There is no way around this. Scientists must assume the induction principle.
 
Those of us that buy our food literally or figuratively.....

P1K:

  • Who do you mean when you say "the side of science"?

  • What assumptions, and unprovable givens (as place to start) are these?

Those of us that buy our food literally or figuratively by way of activities the general public views as "activities of science" are "on the side of science". Also non professionals who believe in the ad hoc principles of science such as induction, that mathematics can describe the physical world, that living things are fundamentally material and so forth. Those that buy into this, myself included, are "on the side of science".....
 
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Who is this addressed to, I cannot tell...

And even then you're equating the assumption of reality by science with the assumption of reality with religion and trying to put them on equal footing. History already proves this to be wrong.

For a large part of human history it WAS assumed that God(s) did exist, and it was their directive to dick with humans in all ways. Some religions even blatantly assumed that all creatures existing on the Earth were put here by God.

That was during Darwin's time, it was called special creation. It became untenable because the assumption that God did all this was unnecessary and completely false when you consider fossilized data, geography, molecular biology, cosmology, climatology, the list goes on.

You cannot equivocate the assumptions of science and religion as far as "what is reality" with the actual demonstrable evidence found by both parties in its entire history (hint, the scales weigh HEAVILY in favor over science)

You are definitely "going nuclear" to quote some other dude who uses that and links the blog to it...

Who is this addressed to, I cannot tell...
 
Well the principle of induction for one.......

What gives you the right as a scientist to assume tomorrow will be as today was? It is essential to your work.

You assume tomorrow will be as today because today was like yesterday. But surely that cannot be a reasonable ground for assuming tomorrow will be as today because it is an argument based on the very thing one is hoping will be true, that the future will be as the past was.

There is no way around this. Scientists must assume the induction principle.

Ok, good for a start, now specifically in the case of a wholly naturalistic alternative to Neo-Darwinism:

  • Who do you mean when you say "the side of science"?
  • What assumptions, and unprovable givens (as place to start) are these?
 

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