The understating of the fluidity of sexual orientation

[RandFan]

I'm not attempting to disparage anybody. You're attempting to disparage me.

I'm not at all trying to disparage you. I'm trying to disparage the idea that the rights, feelings and lives of gays and lesbians have anything whatsoever to do with bestiality. I find that hurtful to the gay and lesbian community specifically and society generally. I find that it is entirely unwarranted. The caveat that you are "not attempting to disparage anybody" doesn't take the stink off of it. I would appeal to your better nature not to make such comparisons. You might think that such comparisons are helpful to advance your argument but I assure you that they are not. It is at best a provocative rhetorical device. It offers no enlightenment whatsoever. I say that as one who came to this forum opposed to gay marriage and adoption. I started threads arguing that gays and lesbians were not "natural" or other such nonsense. I now understand why my words and arguments were not only vacuous but hurtful. Look, I understand your sentiments. I take serious issue with your means of conveying those sentiments.

Please stop.

 

[Trakar]

How many "straight" guys could admit that some guys they meet have attractive personalities, and they'd happily cuddle up on the sofa with them if it weren't for the homophobia hahahahahaha I mean I cuddle up on the sofa with my pet dalmation so what's the problem?! Where's my bestialphobia? Oh yeah, that's right, bestiality isn't considered a valid love/lifestyle so there's no chance of getting irrevocably sucked into the vortex.

I generally am not willing to happily cuddle-up with females, unless there is the potential that it would lead to sex or I feel a strong physical attraction to them. The only exception I can think of is when a loved one (Mother, sister, wife, daughter - Father, brother, son - or long time friend) are in need of consolation, but consolation is not cuddling, and in itself is awkward and generally uncomfortable for me. I've never met a male who had physical or personality traits that I found physically or mentally attractive. I'm not saying that such is impossible, merely that after more than a half century and exposure to people and cultures the world over, I have yet to meet a man that struck up even a "passing fancy" in my imagnation.

 

[Snide]

Ah, Don Knotts, so naive.

Norman Fell was quite wacky as well, in his own way. Probably not quite as naive, however.

 

[Moss]

Do I have to feel stupid that I think you would actually need a very big Venn diagram to map someone's sexuality instead of the usual gay - bi - hetero scale?

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

I generally am not willing to happily cuddle-up with females, unless there is the potential that it would lead to sex or I feel a strong physical attraction to them. The only exception I can think of is when a loved one (Mother, sister, wife, daughter - Father, brother, son - or long time friend) are in need of consolation, but consolation is not cuddling, and in itself is awkward and generally uncomfortable for me.

Really I'm the same now you mention it - I wouldn't cuddle up with anybody I didn't want to have sex with unless...like you said. I guess cuddling up with a pet is different. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it.

I've never met a male who had physical or personality traits that I found physically or mentally attractive. I'm not saying that such is impossible, merely that after more than a half century and exposure to people and cultures the world over, I have yet to meet a man that struck up even a "passing fancy" in my imagnation.

Admirable personality traits? Personality traits that made you want to spend time with them? Perhaps the word "attractive" has exclusively sexual connotations.

 

[Trakar]

Do I have to feel stupid that I think you would actually need a very big Venn diagram to map someone's sexuality instead of the usual gay - bi - hetero scale?

Well, and most important of all, it is highly unlikely that anyone's individual map would ever be fully and accurately duplicated by anyone else's.

This isn't to say that there probably aren't a handful of general and broadly similar patterns, just that there are a lot of influences and varying circumstances impacting such patterns.

 

[RandFan]

Do I have to feel stupid that I think you would actually need a very big Venn diagram to map someone's sexuality instead of the usual gay - bi - hetero scale?

Absolutely not. I would say that a general model of sexuality would be close to the the 3D color space.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I generally am not willing to happily cuddle-up with females, unless there is the potential that it would lead to sex or I feel a strong physical attraction to them. The only exception I can think of is when a loved one (Mother, sister, wife, daughter - Father, brother, son - or long time friend) are in need of consolation, but consolation is not cuddling, and in itself is awkward and generally uncomfortable for me. I've never met a male who had physical or personality traits that I found physically or mentally attractive. I'm not saying that such is impossible, merely that after more than a half century and exposure to people and cultures the world over, I have yet to meet a man that struck up even a "passing fancy" in my imagnation.

I think that is the point cuddling is about emotional closeness and many people do not feel inclined to get that degree of closeness with people they are not also sexually attracted to. Kids and pets would have obvious differenced. And u know people would find curling between parents and adult kids odd and off putting.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Do I have to feel stupid that I think you would actually need a very big Venn diagram to map someone's sexuality instead of the usual gay - bi - hetero scale?

What are you trying to model? I think a couple of axis's are sufficient for sex and gender issues. Getting into kink fantasies how monogamous and so on adds different complications.

 

[Trakar]

Really I'm the same now you mention it - I wouldn't cuddle up with anybody I didn't want to have sex with unless...like you said. I guess cuddling up with a pet is different. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it.

Spending time with a pet is more like parental-child bonding and affection sharing. It is physically intimate but is not sexual. These two circumstances, person-pet, parent-child seem to be very similar and yet completely distinct from adult physical intimacy.

Admirable personality traits? Personality traits that made you want to spend time with them? Perhaps the word "attractive" has exclusively sexual connotations.

Not really, I often see traits, thoughts and lines of thinking that I find intriguing and interesting, but this doesn't inspire me to spend intimate 1 on 1 time with the person expressing those characteristics so much as it inspires me to analyze and observe them in a variety of situations to more fully understand and integrate those traits, thoughts and lines of thinking into my own persona.

But then, for me, sex is an almost entirely physical act based largely upon physical attraction components. I can't say that there are no mental or personality influences, but rather that sex is possible without the preferred mental and personality flavors, but no matter how much of these spices you add to the dish, without the purely physical attraction the sex ain't happening,...at least for me, different strokes for different folks.

 

[Trakar]

Absolutely not. I would say that a general model of sexuality would be close to the the 3D color space.

[qimg]http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/179/gamutvision3dexamplecro.jpg[/qimg]

Tootie-Fruity Bubble-Yum!

Cool!

 

[Trakar]

I think that is the point cuddling is about emotional closeness and many people do not feel inclined to get that degree of closeness with people they are not also sexually attracted to. Kids and pets would have obvious differenced. And u know people would find curling between parents and adult kids odd and off putting.

I think there are two predominant perspectives on cuddling, some see it as a physical expression of emotional compassion and sharing (which is more closely related to the parent-child/owner-pet bonding), others see it as a prelude to, or expected consequence of, sexual intimacy. I don't know if this is cultural, hormonal, or some blend of a lot of factors, but most people (when they can be open and honest) tend to fall into one category or the other.

 

[RandFan]

I think there are two predominant perspectives on cuddling, some see it as a physical expression of emotional compassion and sharing (which is more closely related to the parent-child/owner-pet bonding), others see it as a prelude to, or expected consequence of, sexual intimacy. I don't know if this is cultural, hormonal, or some blend of a lot of factors, but most people (when they can be open and honest) tend to fall into one category or the other.

I like cuddling and often initiate it with no expectations at all. Sometimes my wife wants it to go further and I don't. Sometimes it's the opposite.

It's hard for me to see the world through your eyes as I have no basis to understand it. I accept it as there is much anecdotal evidence that many people only see cuddling for purposes of a greater reward. I've no reason to think people are lying. But I would be interested to know the basis for your conclusion. Is it simply intuitive or did you read about a study, or something else? Thanks.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

I think the consensus from the last few posts is that people don't cuddle with adult humans unless sex is a real possibility.

:edit: If you saw a Catholic priest cuddling a kid you'd probably call the fuzz.

BTW, on a documentary the other night based in Chicago, when people said "I love you" they all pronounced it as "I lur you". Is this a common/nation wide pattern on that side of the pond I wonder. The three toughest words in the english language...I lu...I luuu..oh, to hell with it: I lur you.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

The Hopeless Scale:

Hug -> Cuddle -> Snuggle -> Grind -> Screw -> Fall in Lur -> Get Married -> Die

 

[Alan]

On an episode of Frasier, it being easier to say "I love ya" than "I love you" was discussed.

 

[Mark6]

How many "straight" guys could admit that some guys they meet have attractive personalities, and they'd happily cuddle up on the sofa with them if it weren't for the homophobia hahahahahaha I mean I cuddle up on the sofa with my pet dalmation so what's the problem?!

I admit it. I have. And I am straight.

 

[Trakar]

I like cuddling and often initiate it with no expectations at all. Sometimes my wife wants it to go further and I don't. Sometimes it's the opposite.

It's hard for me to see the world through your eyes as I have no basis to understand it. I accept it as there is much anecdotal evidence that many people only see cuddling for purposes of a greater reward. I've no reason to think people are lying. But I would be interested to know the basis for your conclusion. Is it simply intuitive or did you read about a study, or something else? Thanks.

Something else, predominantly.

It is my experience as derived through the anecdotal evidences of the last 5-6 decades of life experience. I didn't mean to imply that all feel the same way, in fact I thought I was clear that these are my perspective, though discussions and observations over time have led me to believe that I am not unique in these feelings. I am of the considered opinion that cuddling behavior is the adult manifestation of the parent-child bonding processes that most all adults evolve and adapt into mate bonding as they sexually mature, and some, evidently, manage to keep distinct from the sexual aspects of mate bonding. As you say, I can't speak much to this latter aspect as I don't experience it in that way.

Then again, I don't associate sex iself with any especially deep or strongly emotional connection, it is predominantly a physical experience that is enhanced by (or sometimes complicated and distracted by) emotional flavors, but these aren't required for the experience.

 

[Trakar]

I think the consensus from the last few posts is that people don't cuddle with adult humans unless sex is a real possibility.

:edit: If you saw a Catholic priest cuddling a kid you'd probably call the fuzz.

BTW, on a documentary the other night based in Chicago, when people said "I love you" they all pronounced it as "I lur you". Is this a common/nation wide pattern on that side of the pond I wonder. The three toughest words in the english language...I lu...I luuu..oh, to hell with it: I lur you.

Never heard of "lur" nor heard anyone say it.

I am Catholic, cuddling wouldn't elicit notifying the authorities, circumstances and reactions, might.

I don't consider love (or luv) to be in anyway related to sex. The first is a strong, interactive emotional bond, the latter is a physical act/skillset.

Curiously this line of discussion opened a bit of insight for me. I do have close male and female friends that I sincerely and emotionally care about to the degree that I feel no qualms about saying I love them. That said, I feel no physical attraction for them and find myself not just lacking any physical feelings for them, but find even the concept of physical intimacy with them to be repulsive, though I do recall some measure of physical attraction to some of the female friends when we first met and prior to developing our friendship relationships. To me the concept is very parallel to the way I feel about family members.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

This is the utube from comment 175 - I messed up the coding.