Skeptics and Santa Claus

Skeptics who celebrate Christmas: Do you teach your kids to believe in Santa Claus?

  • Yes I do (or would if I had children), and I don't think this is inconsistent with skepticism.

    Votes: 40 42.6%

  • Yes I do (or would if I had children), but I do think it's inconsistent with skepticism.

    Votes: 7 7.4%

  • No I don't (or would not if I had children), but I don't think it would be inconsistent with skepti

    Votes: 9 9.6%

  • No I don't (or would not if I had children), and I think it would be inconsistent with skepticism to

    Votes: 30 31.9%

  • On Planet Xmas, we spend the holidays hiding in an armored bunker from Santa-bot.

    Votes: 8 8.5%
  • Total voters
    94
JamesDillon said:
Are you telling me that adults do not intentionally mislead children to believe that Santa Claus literally exists, or that many children who are so misinformed by their parents do not believe, as a matter of literal fact, that a magic man in a red suit lives at the North Pole and brings them toys via flying reindeer on Christmas morning? Or that you see no important difference between that literal belief and the experience of, say, going to see a Disney movie where the children understand that what's happening is just a story and the parents make no effort to persuade them otherwise?

ETA: Does your answer change if we replace "Santa Claus" with "Jesus"?
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Yes.

Adults create a fantasy in which they get their kids to join in with the make believe. It is called playing, having fun, make believe and so on. What on earth do you think playing and make believe is?

And I am struggling to see how "Jesus" can be squeezed into this discussion?
 
Darat said:
I meant what I posted, and the kids are not "humouring the adults" they are playing along with the adults. That is what play is all about.
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This does not describe me as a kid. I was taught to believe, and I believed without irony. Presents labeled as being from Santa were actually from Santa. The sleigh tracks my father fabricated on the roof were actual sleigh tracks. Milk and cookies that were on the table the night before and gone on Christmas were consumed by Santa. It was reality for me, and I was taught that it was reality.

I have a 2 year old second cousin. His mother and grandmother frequently use Santa Claus as a tool to get him to behave, and this was used on me as a kid as well. It wasn't tongue-in-cheek or playful; it was real and it worked. This idea of kids playing along or parents not actively saying Santa is real and "meaning" it is alien to me.
 
Darat said:
Yes.

Adults create a fantasy in which they get their kids to join in with the make believe. It is called playing, having fun, make believe and so on. What on earth do you think playing and make believe is?

And I am struggling to see how "Jesus" can be squeezed into this discussion?
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I guess we just have a very deep disagreement about what the facts of the situation are, then. I think a necessary condition of "playing" and "making believe" is that everyone involved understands what's happening; when only one side does, it's called "lying" and "manipulation." If you really believe that children all across the world (or whatever portion of the world subscribes to some variant of the Santa/Father Christmas myth) actually understand that their parents' claims about Santa Claus are not literally true, then you have a very different conception of what's going on than I do.
 
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BrainRotMenacer said:
I have a 2 year old second cousin. His mother and grandmother frequently use Santa Claus as a tool to get him to behave, and this was used on me as a kid as well. It wasn't tongue-in-cheek or playful; it was real and it worked. This idea of kids playing along or parents not actively saying Santa is real and "meaning" it is alien to me.
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Getting kids to behave through the threat of not receiving presents I don't agree with. I would try not to use that whatsoever, but maybe discipline would get tiring enough for that threat to slip out once in a while.
 
Legend said:
I made a thread on this here, if you want some other results. It was a while ago so I'll be interested to see the results here.
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And my response from that thread:

'In a way, I got the best of both worlds though. I never lied to my kids about Santa (never lie to my kids full stop) and, when asked, always said he wasn't real and we bought the prezzies but they believed anyway as everyone else kept telling them about Santa. Once they realised the truth there was no backlash against me as I'd been honest but they were a bit peeved with their teachers, grandparents etc. Didn't spoil the 'magic' of Xmas for them though - if anything, their enjoyment increased once they understood why they got some of the things they wanted and not others!'
 
JamesDillon said:
I guess we just have a very deep disagreement about what the facts of the situation are, then. I think a necessary condition of "playing" and "making believe" is that everyone involved understands what's happening; when only one side does, it's called "lying" and "manipulation." If you really believe that children all across the world (or whatever portion of the world subscribes to some variant of the Santa/Father Christmas myth) actually understand that their parents' claims about Santa Claus are not literally true, then you have a very different conception of what's going on than I do.
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So where's the damage if very young children literally believe in Santa? And "manipulation"? How do you really think children are brought up?
 
lionking said:
So where's the damage if very young children literally believe in Santa? And "manipulation"? How do you really think children are brought up?
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Do you need a specific demonstration of "damage" before you agree that it's bad to lie to people? Even if lying is morally appropriate in some circumstances, shouldn't the presumption be that we should not lie without a good reason to do so, not that it's okay as long as it doesn't seem like a big deal?

ETA: But more to the point, I'm assuming that everyone responding to the poll is a self-identified skeptic, since that's the population whose views I'm really interested in. One might just as easily ask what the harm is in believing in Bigfoot, or UFOs? Personally I think the intentional perpetuation of false beliefs is a harm in itself, irrespective of any further harm that it might cause.
 
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Darat said:
This. Most kids are much better at distinguishing between the real and the unreal than many adults seem to realise. Kids start playing along with the fantasy of Christmas and so on from a very young age. There is nothing wrong with adults entering into the land of make believe and playing along with with their children, it's called fun.

For those that think it is somehow wrong to foster this hoax on children I do hope that you are consistent and don't allow them to read or see any other fiction? And of course stop them if they play make believe such as being a shop keeper, or soldiers and so on. After all playing along with that must be equally as bad for the poor kids fragile development. :rolleyes:
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Sorry, I normally like and rate your posts but this is arrant (and insulting) nonsense. You're drawing an unfair parallel between playing make-believe (which I certainly do with my kids) and whether you answer a serious question honestly outside of a game. If the kids want to play at being Father Xmas and his elves - or being a soldier or shop-keeper or whatever, I'll happily join in with them. If, outside of what is clearly a game, they ask me whether Mr Benn, GI Joe or Father Xmas really exists then I'll answer them honestly. Not lieing about Father Xmas' existance in the real world is completely different to happily indulging in games of make believe where the kids know they're playing, or reading them stories that they know are just that, stories.
 
JamesDillon said:
Do you need a specific demonstration of "damage" before you agree that it's bad to lie to people?
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When it comes to Santa, yes. And if you can find a child who has suffered damage (and I doubt you can) how do you balance that with the countless millions who relish the whole fantastic experience?

And lying? Are you in a relationship? Does my arse look big in this?
 
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In my case, finding out that Santa wasn't real was probably one factor that strengthened my general skepticism and eventually led to my atheism. As a child, I don't remember ever really believing in ghosts, UFO's, superstitions or paranormal powers. But the beliefs in god and in Santa were too wonderful and satisfying to abandon. I was clinging to the Santa myth up to when I was 10 years old. Only when I saw one of my uncles putting on a Santa costume to distribute presents to my younger siblings and cousins did I admit what the evidence had been telling me all along. Santa is not real, no matter how much I would like it for him to be. Over the years, I started to analize the possibility of god's existence without considering that it would be wonderful if he indeed exists. Conspiracy theories are more entertaining than the often dull truth. Alternative medicine promises to cure any ailment, without side effects. It's exciting to think that advanced aliens are visiting us (except for the anal probing business).

My two sons are now in their 30's, and yes, I promoted the Santa myth when they were children. Both have grown to be skeptics, although they have not given up a general belief in god.
 
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lionking said:
When it comes to Santa, yes. And if you can find a child who has suffered damage (and I doubt you can) how do you balance that with the countless millions who relish the whole fantastic experience?

And lying? Are you in a relationship? Does my arse look big in this?
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Ok, I'll give you one - though relatively minor. My parents brought me up to believe in Santa and yet, despite being a good kid, and constantly top of my class, Xmas was always disappointing because I never got the toys I wanted as my parents simply couldn't afford them. I could never understand why Santa was rewarding the 'bad kids' with all the latest and greatest games and toys whereas I got a lot less. Being a well brought up child, I hid my disappointment as much as possible but I eventually asked my parents why and they, eventually (they tried to keep the lie going a bit longer), told me. It was a great relief to know the truth and that I was not doing something 'bad' unknowingly. Xmas was much happier after that as I could truly appreciate the sacrifice my parents were making to just give me the toys they could afford.

Didn't scar me for life but I was a lot happier knowing the truth than when I was being peddled the lie.

Don't get me wrong though - the whole Santa thing is not a big deal to me and I totally understand parents who do it. I don't think it generally does any harm, it's just not for me - perhaps because of my own experience but probably more because of my attitude to the truth. I have a pretty strict approach to it which I accept is not the norm - I don't even do the 'white lie' thing, so in answer to your question, yes I will and indeed have said 'Your bum looks big in that'. It'll be my 23rd Wedding Anniversary this year so it doesn't seem to have done me any harm.
 
I have a 9, 6 and 3 yr old. I've never 'actively' pushed belief in any of theses classic fables (Santa, Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny) aside from the obvious Santa and good kids bribe. Conversely, I've never denied them either. My thoughts are, the playground sorts out the 'truth' about these stories eventually.
When it comes to the harmful stuff, bogiemonsters, ghosts, ghouls and gods, I do steer them toward the truth and away from the nonsense.
 
I never pretended he was real because I want to get credit for my gifts.
I am not writing "Santa" on the tag instead of "Mommy!"
**** that guy!
 
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