Skeptics and Santa Claus

[JamesDillon]

I think that is the BS reason it sticks around. Children aren't innocent, and gullibility does not equal innocence in the first place. There is plenty of imaginary fun kids can have without adults enforcing bizarre world views for their selfish enjoyment.

I tend to agree with this. A lot of people are emphasizing the supposed values of childhood imagination and magic and so on, and I've gotten that response a lot of in past discussions too. But as I was getting at with my response to Skeptic Ginger above, I think that kind of argument ignores a really important distinction between "playing make-believe" and outright lying. I don't ever remember being confused about whether Cinderella or G.I. Joe or any other such characters were literally real, because my parents made no attempt to trick me into believing they were. I'm no child psychologist but I can't recall ever not understanding the distinction between real and imaginary, either; and even if there is some early point in development at which children haven't grasped that concept, I think it's pretty clear that the Santa myth often gets perpetuated well past that point. So I'm not sure how Santa benefits from the "childhood wonder" argument; children have ample capacity for wonder and imagination without adults actively misleading them as to the true facts of the world. For that matter, even as an adult I still enjoy a good story, and while I may need to suspend my disbelief in order to savor the experience, that doesn't mean I have to trick myself into thinking that the story is literally true.

 

[angrysoba]

I think that is the BS reason it sticks around. Children aren't innocent, and gullibility does not equal innocence in the first place. There is plenty of imaginary fun kids can have without adults enforcing bizarre world views for their selfish enjoyment.

If someone asked you to dress up as Santa Claus and distribute presents at a hospital to sick children, would you do it or would you think it is a dangerous inculcation of a bizarre worldview designed by adults for the selfish enjoyment of adults?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Three reasons I happily go along with such a maskerade
1: Its perfectly possible to believe in things as a child, learn they aren't true because they are impossible and thus slowly learn to question other 'truths' as part of normal growing up

2: Children DO live in a magical world. Sometimes us adults forget their brains are still fully developing and therefore they simply (generally) do not have the ability to differ between fantasy and reality, this happens as they grow up.

3: But my best reason I can never put to words, but Sir Terry Pratchett could

All right," said Susan, "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need ... fantasies to make life bearable."
No. Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meet the rising ape.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?"
Yes. As practice. You have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
Yes. Justice. Duty. Mercy. That sort of thing.
"They're not the same at all!"
Really? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet you act, like there was some sort of rightness in the universe by which it may be judged:
"Yes. But people have got to believe that or what's the point?"
My point exactly.

 

[angrysoba]

... I think that kind of argument ignores a really important distinction between "playing make-believe" and outright lying. I don't ever remember being confused about whether Cinderella or G.I. Joe or any other such characters were literally real, because my parents made no attempt to trick me into believing they were. I'm no child psychologist but I can't recall ever not understanding the distinction between real and imaginary, either; and even if there is some early point in development at which children haven't grasped that concept, I think it's pretty clear that the Santa myth often gets perpetuated well past that point...

Yes, I have heard it said, many times, that children of the age of three or thereabouts cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality.

I think that's rubbish and I have anecdotal evidence to prove it.

My brother-in-law was talking to my nephew, who was even three, while he was eating breakfast. Seeing that there was some chocolate milk on the table, my brother-in-law said to him, completely dead-pan, "Did you know that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows?"

My nephew did a kind of double-take before bursting out with laughter, "Ha ha ha, you're funny, Daddy!"

Though I don't know what his stance is on Santa Claus.

 

[Thorax]

I can see why the kid laughed. But if you looked seriously at the child and said "this kind of milk comes from cows that are eating hay mixed with chocolate" and didn't smile, you might get a different reaction. Little children react to humor, but they will believe almost anything you tell them until they discover the truth for themselves.

 

[bruto]

I never believed in Santa Claus and never thought there was any good reason to teach my kids to believe either. I would not have felt it necessary to spoil it if they had somehow or other come to that belief, but I don't think any of my kids ever took it seriously for more than a day, so the issue never arose.

I can understand teaching a kid your religion if you believe it's true, but I cannot understand why you would wish to teach a kid something that you know is not true, and that they're expected to outgrow.

My wife, who grew up in Cuba, where rather than Santa, the Three Kings are the big deal, was treated to an elaborate hoax each year until they fled the country when she was 7. Camel tracks, etc. When she found out it was all a fake she was furious. Perhaps it's worse when you're going through the tumult of a revolution, and end up homeless in a foreign country, but she felt as if it had just been one more betrayal. If you can't trust your parents for the truth, whom can you trust?

I must disagree with Lukraak Sisser on this. I have had some kids, and remember being one too, and while there may be some blurring of the line between fantasy and reality, I don't think that means that kids don't know the difference, or that adults should exploit the confusion. Sure, we all need fantasy in our lives, but children can choose their own, and make their own, and the smart ones are aware of what they're doing. Santa Claus is the creation of adults, not of children.

Maybe it depends on the kid. I guess some people are happy to believe in some kind of magic for a while and are not bothered when they find out it's not true. Plenty of others would rather have their confusion about reality resolved rather than increased. The world is strange, wondrous and confusing enough without the overlay.

 

[angrysoba]

I can see why the kid laughed. But if you looked seriously at the child and said "this kind of milk comes from cows that are eating hay mixed with chocolate" and didn't smile, you might get a different reaction. Little children react to humor, but they will believe almost anything you tell them until they discover the truth for themselves.

Yes, of course, but adults will also believe the most incredible nonsense themselves if they trust the source of the nonsense.

2: Children DO live in a magical world. Sometimes us adults forget their brains are still fully developing and therefore they simply (generally) do not have the ability to differ between fantasy and reality, this happens as they grow up.

But the example you give from Terry Pratchett seems to undermine this claim as you are essentially saying that in our day-to-day lives as adults we also fail to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

Or are you saying that concepts of justice are inculcated in children using such devices as a fictional magical man who dispenses presents in an annual end-of-year system of rewards (or punishments) to children who have been good (or bad). I think that would be a stretch as such abstract concepts are probably more than intelligible to adults who didn't have the Santa thing as children.

 

[Puppycow]

I did try to pretend that Santa Claus was real for my kids, but I never did a very good job of it, and they figured out pretty quickly that I was having them on. They like to play along though. Recently found a letter to Santa from my son, conveniently left where I would find it.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I doubt if parents "teach" their children to believe in Santa Claus. My replies to my children's questions about Father Christmas were on the lines of, 'well, a lot of people believe it', ''who is he? part of the fun of Christmas really',; i.e. I never told them anything that was not true, so they gradually worked it out for themselves.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I think this is apropos....

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...213586119?sv=34f3f77e4a9146b7039d91b6d9d92e6e

 

[angrysoba]

Can't we compromise and say something like,

"Hey kids I know that many of you believe in Santa Claus because your parents have told you about him and indeed he was a real historical figure who gave presents, according to Wikipedia, to the poor and dowries to the daughters of a pious Christian man to prevent them from being prostitutes, but he is dead now. Long dead. His grave was desecrated by thieves as well. So, no he won't be visiting your house on Christmas Eve."

 

[slingblade]

Kids don't need to believe fictional characters are real to enjoy them. If I had a parental do-over, we'd still enjoy all the trappings of the season, with the firm understanding that while Santa is a lot of fun, he isn't real, and doesn't need to be.

 

[JamesDillon]

I doubt if parents "teach" their children to believe in Santa Claus. My replies to my children's questions about Father Christmas were on the lines of, 'well, a lot of people believe it', ''who is he? part of the fun of Christmas really',; i.e. I never told them anything that was not true, so they gradually worked it out for themselves.

I just don't understand why people have a problem with the word "teach." Regardless of what you personally may or may not have done, do you deny that a lot of parents go beyond noncommittal responses and tell their children that Santa Claus actually exists? For the most part kids don't just come up with the idea on their own; they believe it because their parents tell them to, just like many other early learning experiences.

 

[Legend]

Someone brought up the point in my thread (maybe here too, I haven't read) about making Santa real but a mental obstacle that the kids have to overcome using the critical thinking skills that you instil in them. That sounds like a really cool approach to the situation. They get the normality of Christmas and won't potentially hate you for taking away a part of their childhood, and also grow intellectually as part of their introduction to skepticism.

 

[Darat]

Kids don't need to believe fictional characters are real to enjoy them. If I had a parental do-over, we'd still enjoy all the trappings of the season, with the firm understanding that while Santa is a lot of fun, he isn't real, and doesn't need to be.

This. Most kids are much better at distinguishing between the real and the unreal than many adults seem to realise. Kids start playing along with the fantasy of Christmas and so on from a very young age. There is nothing wrong with adults entering into the land of make believe and playing along with with their children, it's called fun.

For those that think it is somehow wrong to foster this hoax on children I do hope that you are consistent and don't allow them to read or see any other fiction? And of course stop them if they play make believe such as being a shop keeper, or soldiers and so on. After all playing along with that must be equally as bad for the poor kids fragile development.

 

[JamesDillon]

This. Most kids are much better at distinguishing between the real and the unreal than many adults seem to realise. Kids start playing along with the fantasy of Christmas and so on from a very young age. There is nothing wrong with adults entering into the land of make believe and playing along with with their children, it's called fun.

For those that think it is somehow wrong to foster this hoax on children I do hope that you are consistent and don't allow them to read or see any other fiction? And of course stop them if they play make believe such as being a shop keeper, or soldiers and so on. After all playing along with that must be equally as bad for the poor kids fragile development.

Your second paragraph seems to totally contradict your first. Yes, I think it's wrong to foster a hoax on children by intentionally misleading them about the truth of Santa Claus's existence. But that's the exact opposite of playing make-believe in which everyone understands that you're just pretending. As you point out, children are able to understand the difference between reality and fiction-- so how is lying to them about which is which at all justifiable?

Unless you mean in your first paragraph that kids actually have the truth of Santa Claus figured out by a young age and are just humoring the adults? If that's what you mean I think that's just empirically untrue.

 

[Darat]

Your second paragraph seems to totally contradict your first. Yes, I think it's wrong to foster a hoax on children by intentionally misleading them about the truth of Santa Claus's existence. But that's the exact opposite of playing make-believe in which everyone understands that you're just pretending. As you point out, children are able to understand the difference between reality and fiction-- so how is lying to them about which is which at all justifiable?

Unless you mean in your first paragraph that kids actually have the truth of Santa Claus figured out by a young age and are just humoring the adults? If that's what you mean I think that's just empirically untrue.

I meant what I posted, and the kids are not "humouring the adults" they are playing along with the adults. That is what play is all about.

 

[JamesDillon]

I meant what I posted, and the kids are not "humouring the adults" they are playing along with the adults. That is what play is all about.

Are you telling me that adults do not intentionally mislead children to believe that Santa Claus literally exists, or that many children who are so misinformed by their parents do not believe, as a matter of literal fact, that a magic man in a red suit lives at the North Pole and brings them toys via flying reindeer on Christmas morning? Or that you see no important difference between that literal belief and the experience of, say, going to see a Disney movie where the children understand that what's happening is just a story and the parents make no effort to persuade them otherwise?

ETA: Does your answer change if we replace "Santa Claus" with "Jesus"?

 

[Legend]

Your second paragraph seems to totally contradict your first. Yes, I think it's wrong to foster a hoax on children by intentionally misleading them about the truth of Santa Claus's existence. But that's the exact opposite of playing make-believe in which everyone understands that you're just pretending. As you point out, children are able to understand the difference between reality and fiction-- so how is lying to them about which is which at all justifiable?

Unless you mean in your first paragraph that kids actually have the truth of Santa Claus figured out by a young age and are just humoring the adults? If that's what you mean I think that's just empirically untrue.

As he said, they're playing along earlier than you think. I agree with that assessment. They too have a grip on the reality of Santa's identity but they keep up with it because it's fun, that is until the idea is silly to them. In my mind it's no coincidence that this comes around the same time that they stop pretending they're doctors with their friends.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I think it is fun and exciting for the children.

i find that it is a belief that they ease out of, rather than be shocked out of.
They gradually lose faith in the concept and patch the inconsistencies up, becuase they want to keep believing.

Also: I think it is a great exercise in critical thinking. To be immersed in such an idea and then find out that it was all make believe.

Some religious leader here in the Netherlands actually wrote that he objects to the whole Santa (Sinterklaas over here) because if children learn that Santa isn't real, they might start doubting God's existence. this caused me to erupt in roaring laughter.

Let me put it this way: I think Santa is fun and I also think that it will help protect my children from religion, marketing, date rape, scammers and politicians.

But I repeat myself.