The understating of the fluidity of sexual orientation

[Bad Lieutenant]

Drinking excessive quantities of alcohol had been shown to result in reduced testosterone levels for males (perhaps leading to their identifying with the opposite sex) and causing homosexuality that way.

[citation needed]

No, grammar revision needed; I should have closed the bracket five words later. Shoot me...or just flail around and hope to grasp another straw.

 

[RandFan]

Randfan,

Are you ex-mormon? Just an off topic question that came to mind by reading above your avatar.

Yes, though I have not yet asked for my name to be taken off the records. Which means that I am counted as Mormon by the church, hence "Mormon Atheist". FWW: The church is aware of my status but has not moved to excommunicate me.

 

[RandFan]

This "feminised" male may then identify with the mother more than the father, causing gender role model identity confusion. The Oedipus complex develops unusually, and that causes the homosexuality.

Citation?

It may be the case that people can identify primarily with the opposite sex, instead of the same sex, at later points in life, causing their libido to switch at that time.

Which may be due to eating pistachios...? What's with the speculation and is there any basis for it whatsoever (citation)?

Drinking excessive quantities of alcohol had been shown to result in reduced testosterone levels for males...

(emphasis mine) Before we address the problems inherent in correlation vs causation (yes, i note your caveat but we will get to that latter), can you at least demonstrate this claim?

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

This "feminised" male may then identify with the mother more than the father, causing gender role model identity confusion. The Oedipus complex develops unusually, and that causes the homosexuality.

Citation?

Any introductory text on psychoanalysis or child libidinal development - call it what you will; it happens around 5-7 years old. Amazon.co.uk?

It may be the case that people can identify primarily with the opposite sex, instead of the same sex, at later points in life, causing their libido to switch at that time.

Which may be due to eating pistachios...? What's with the speculation and is there any basis for it whatsoever (citation)?

You could ask the same question of those who purport the gay nurturing uncle hypothesis which implies the existence of a gay gene. I've a feeling you won't however.

Drinking excessive quantities of alcohol had been shown to result in reduced testosterone levels for males...

(emphasis mine) Before we address the problems inherent in correlation vs causation (yes, i note your caveat but we will get to that latter), can you at least demonstrate this claim?

Google alcohol and testosterone. Google is a search engine. The correlation/causation confusion does not apply because the studies were conducted under controlled conditions.

 

[Caper]

Yes, though I have not yet asked for my name to be taken off the records. Which means that I am counted as Mormon by the church, hence "Mormon Atheist". FWW: The church is aware of my status but has not moved to excommunicate me.

Interesting. Always liked the Mormons..... kind of like the way the South Park guys like the Mormons. Never known a Mormon to drop their beliefs... really devoted.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Just because you were able to find some homosexuality does not mean it is present at the levels in the West. Sorry, but your anecdotal evidence doesn't carry much weight. Also, homosexuality which came about because of diminished in-uterine testosterone dosing would still occur in societies with strict butch/fem gender roles so there would be some homosexuality in those societies.

You're the one who made the patently false statement that homosexuality is nearly non-existent in Iran. In another thread, you mentioned Afghanistan.

I've been there. I've lived there for many years. I suspect you have not. There are tons of outwardly visible gay men interested in having sex with men in both countries. Risking horrific penalties that exist no longer in Western countries. Discount my 'anecdotal' evidence as you wish.

 

[RandFan]

Any introductory text on psychoanalysis or child libidinal development - call it what you will; it happens around 5-7 years old. Amazon.co.uk?

I have books on psychology, human behavior, cognition, sociological basis for sexuality etc. Perhaps my books are all wrong. It's YOUR claim. Can you support it?

You could ask the same question of those who purport the gay nurturing uncle hypothesis which implies the existence of a gay gene. I've a feeling you won't however.

I HAVE! On this forum. You are wasting your time with the straw man. It's simple, can you support your claim? Yes or no?

Google alcohol and testosterone.

It's not my job to prove your claim.

Google is a search engine.

Since you know that then perhaps you could avail yourself of that tool to demonstrate your claims. That is the assumption in science. In skepticism. In law. In philosophy. The onus is on the person who makes a claim to demonstrate it.

 

[RandFan]

Interesting. Always liked the Mormons..... kind of like the way the South Park guys like the Mormons. Never known a Mormon to drop their beliefs... really devoted.

Yeah, Mormons are an interesting lot. I think there are positive aspects that are statistically greater than the average, but that's based on anecdote and claims in popular culture. They are devoted but there are a lot of reasons for that and many of those reasons are maladaptive. In truth there are a lot of us.

 

[Dessi]

Drinking excessive quantities of alcohol had been shown to result in reduced testosterone levels for males (perhaps leading to their identifying with the opposite sex) and causing homosexuality that way.

[citation needed]

No, grammar revision needed; I should have closed the bracket five words later. Shoot me...or just flail around and hope to grasp another straw.

Who's grasping at straws? You made a very specific claim, not exactly an uncontroversial one, asking for a source is perfectly reasonable.

You've already corrected yourself and backed off the claim, that's fine by me.

 

[Dessi]

This "feminised" male may then identify with the mother more than the father, causing gender role model identity confusion. The Oedipus complex develops unusually, and that causes the homosexuality.

Citation?

Any introductory text on psychoanalysis or child libidinal development - call it what you will; it happens around 5-7 years old. Amazon.co.uk?

Sure, any history of psychology book is going to discuss Freud's influence, his psychoanalytical theories. The problem is that pretty much all modern psychologists rejects Freudian psychology as essentially defunct pseudo-science. That's not to say the guy was an idiot or even a bad psychologist, but that relating psychological gestures as literal manifestations of highly symbolic relationships is, at best, just not how anyone on the planet actually develops their personality.

Unless you're willing to go the whole nine yards on 19th century psychology and begin diagnosing homosexuals using phrenology, I'd say Freud's psychology has had its day, but is unlikely to accurately describe anyone.

Google alcohol and testosterone. Google is a search engine. The correlation/causation confusion does not apply because the studies were conducted under controlled conditions.

Well, sure, there's a connection between alcohol and testosterone, but you retracted the statement that it causes homosexuality, then you immediately responded to RandFan that he would find evidence on whatever you're claiming. Its not clear whether the connection between alcohol and testosterone is a red herring. What does alcohol's effect on testosterone have to do with the fluidity of sexuality?

 

[RandFan]

Sure, any history of psychology book is going to discuss Freud's influence, his psychoanalytical theories. The problem is that pretty much all modern psychologists rejects Freudian psychology as essentially defunct pseudo-science. That's not to say the guy was an idiot or even a bad psychologist, but that relating psychological gestures as literal manifestations of highly symbolic relationships is, at best, just not how anyone on the planet actually develops their personality.

Unless you're willing to go the whole nine yards and begin diagnosing homosexuals on the phrenological quality of their head lumps, I'd say Freud's psychology has had its day, but is unlikely to accurately describe anyone.

Well, sure, there's a connection between alcohol and testosterone. You've already retracted the statement where you connect alcoholism to homosexuality -- I suppose there's evidence for that claim, but what does that have to do with the fluidity of sexuality?

Thanks Dessi. I have a lot of respect for Freud for precisely the reasons you stated. Oedipus complex and penis envy is long since discredited. Anyone who is basing specific claims on Freud's claims of sexuality is woefully behind on contemporary data. Yes, alcoholism is likely to effect testosterone but I would like to the conclusions of the research. In any event, given the proposition what does that have to do with sexual identity, orientation or behavior? I didn't see the retraction, if that's the case then I'll let that go.

 

[Pup]

Again, we need to understand that behavior is not necessarily indicative of orientation. And I would be skeptical of such ad hoc reasoning for behavior. Yes, I understand that you are simply positing a hypothetical but it is overly simplistic. The underlying assumption is at best overly simplistic to the point of absurdity (males are people with beards) and at worst wrong.

Yes, of course, it's simplistic and hypothetical. But so was the post I'm responding to:

Originally Posted by Arcade22
I've always wondered how many supposedly 'straight' men would be able to resist a beautiful, pretty and feminine youth.

I just think the fact that one has to specify that particular kind of youth as potentially the most attractive to a straight man, is more than coincidence. That's my only point--not meant to be any more complex than that.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, of course, it's simplistic and hypothetical. But so was the post I'm responding to:

Fair enough.

 

[Complexity]

And all the other times it's a smoking cock.

Now I'm thinking of my undergrad years...

 

[Complexity]

Any introductory text on psychoanalysis or child libidinal development - call it what you will; it happens around 5-7 years old.

Psychonanalysis doesn't persuade many around here (or this century).

Some of Freud's work was an important stepping stone in the process of trying to understand the human mind and human behavior, but much of it has been passed by.

I knew I was into guys before I was 5. I have no reason to think that I ever could have ended up straight.

 

[RandFan]

I knew I was into guys before I was 5. I have no reason to think that I ever could have ended up straight.

I'm guessing you haven't accepted Jesus as your lord and savior?

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's unscientific, though. As rational beings, (some of us) assume that every action has a cause. Homosexuality exists, therefore something causes it. What if it is a choice? Does that make it automatically a bad choice? I would say no.

This isn't about science though, it is about convincing people. There are many approaches that different people will find convincing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I would disagree with that. I would use the word "irrational" to refer to any belief that cannot be supported by reason. There are plenty of things that I can understand people choosing to believe, even if they're not supported by reason. Most of them fall in the category of wishful thinking.

The notion that "Bob is a floob and I am a flurg, therefore flurgs must be better than floobs" is irrational, but I can definitely imagine why someone would choose to believe it.

So define reason? Is that an objective criteria or subjective?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I seem to remember that some studies suggest that the hormone levels of the mother during gestation play a role. But I didn't follow that too much.

Hell random chance could play a roll as well. So you could have a genetic predisposition for it but it would never be absolute. Kind of like a predisposition for cancer does not mean you will get cancer.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I wrote information/environment, not culture. I wrote "information" first and separately, despite the fact it is covered by the "environment" label, as that is the usual first port of call when dealing with psychological constructs. That's not to say that other mechanisms involving particles of ingested matter may not cause homosexuality.

The thing is that it is a bad categorization, as you are conflating biological environmental causes and psychological causes.

Homosexuality in Iran is allegedly non-existent and it seems obvious they enforce rigid gender roles there. Men are macho and women are feminine perhaps more frequently than in the post feminism liberal West, and so less gender role model identity confusion occurs. Maybe I'madinnerjacket was telling the truth...that'd be a first.

Of course at least officially they are legally very tolerant of transsexuals. The rulings of the Imams support transsexualism.