Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Loss Leader]

The Soviets do notice and notice plenty. They are instrumenting the moon and libration points too. What do you think they were doing out there, taking pictures for the pure scientific fun of it all? I don't think so?

Partick:

1. Do you agree that the Soviets would have understood the true purpose of Apollo 11 no later than July 1969?

2. Did the Soviets have a reliable, working rocket with the lifting capacity of the Saturn V on July 22, 1969?

3. If American technology required a Saturn V to lift it all to the moon, would similar Soviet technology have required at least as much lift?

4. Did the Soviets have a rocket capable of crashing a hundred 10 kg weights into the moon in July 1969?

5. Knowing that the US had put important military hardware on the moon; knowing the US had lied lied about it; Knowing that they didn't have to provide their own citizens any information or explanation at all; Knowing that they would not be able to put similar military hardware on the moon for a year or more; Knowing that the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction meant the US would have no choice but to attack if it gained an advantage; knowing that if their hardware was destroyed, the US couldn't even blame the Soviets because the US hadn't admitted to the existence of the hardware in the first place; knowing that they had the capability to lob projectiles at the Sea of Tranquility day and night without anyone in the USSR or the rest of the world knowing about it; knowing that the US couldn't stop them even if they did know about it (which, all the Russians had to do was turn off any telemetry with their launched probe to make it invisible) ... Why wouldn't the Russians try to destroy Tranquility Base in 1969?

If you say that the Russians realized they could use the Eagle transmissions for their own navigational needs, I may faint, hit my head and never recover.

 

[R.A.F.]

I trust I need not go on with this...

Well, since no one here agrees with you, yes, you can stop at any time...

...it does tend to be rather unsettling, does it not?

No one here is in any way "unsettled", because evidence indicates Apollo happened...it is historical fact.

You have offered nothing more than incredulousness...why can't you offer evidence??

Please address the images taken on the surface, and the returned Lunar samples...

 

[R.A.F.]

An aside to Patrick...

When I continually (and politely) ask the following...

Please address the images taken on the surface, and the returned Lunar samples...

I am under no "illusion" that you will actually answer, because I don't ask that question with you in mind, but every time I ask, the "fence sitters" must say to themselves, "if Apollo were really faked, then why can't Patrick "debunk" the images and returned samples?"

See, Patrick, I ask so that the "fence sitters" can understand that you are not debating this subject in good faith, and as long as you don't...as long as it is obvious that you don't, then anything you say becomes easily dismissible.

Please address the images taken on the Lunar surface and the returned Lunar samples...

 

[SpitfireIX]

They are only transparent if one "reads the narrative" in detail, with an open mind and with great attention. It is plain as day given the contradictions, but how many people know the Lick Observatory Scientists knew exactly where the Eagle was on the night of the landing while the people in Houston were looking for the LM on maps?, know FIDO H.David Reed hadn't a clue as to where the bird was when he stepped into the office on the morning of 07/21/1969? know the location of the Eagle was still the $64,000 question per the CapCom/Houston and astronauts themselves during the return ride home, this more than a day after the Lick Observatory scientists have been given the EXACT!!! landing site coordinates?

As has been explained to you ad nauseam, the fact that the astronomers at Lick were given the coordinates of the LM in degrees, minutes, and seconds does not mean that NASA knew or believed it knew those coordinates within +/- 1 second. As someone mentioned upthread, you need to understand the difference between accuracy and precision.

know there was infectious diarrhea, per NASA's own account of Borman's Apollo 8 illness, floating about in the command module environment and not only did they do nothing to fix the problem, ensure this did not happen on Apollo 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17, but when Borman wrote an account of events in a LIFE Magazine article upon his "return to east", he unbelievably said he actually took Secanol a 2nd time on board the CM in cislunar space, as an experiment to see if it would make him sick again? Atypical gram negative pneumonia anyone? Got a respirator in theta tin can? Can any of those clowns intubate their companions? This is a flat out ludicrous JOKE!!!!!!

First, there is no such thing as "atypical gram negative pneumonia"; all forms of pneumonia are either gram positive, gram negative, or atypical. Fail.

Second, please explain exactly what symptoms of any form of pneumonia Borman was exhibiting?

Third, please explain exactly what it is that NASA didn't do about Borman's condition that you feel should have been done. I would ask if you have any qualifications in space medicine to give your opinion any weight, but "atypical gram negative pneumonia" makes it clear that you don't.

I trust I need not go on with this, it does tend to be rather unsettling, does it not? Best to deny NASA's own internally incoherent story and enjoyy the sub-lackluster performance of our pretend cislunar thespians.

Frankly, the only one pretending here is you--pretending to be an expert on subjects of which you clearly have little or no knowledge.

The Soviets do notice and notice plenty. They are instrumenting the moon and libration points too. What do you think they were doing out there, taking pictures for the pure scientific fun of it all? I don't think so?

Argument from personal incredulity. And the Soviets viewed displays of scientific and technical prowess as a means of demonstrating the superiority of Communism, so they most certainly could have been conducting space exploration for purely scientific purposes.

 

[Patrick1000]

What kind of nonsense is this??????......

As has been explained to you ad nauseam, the fact that the astronomers at Lick were given the coordinates of the LM in degrees, minutes, and seconds does not mean that NASA knew or believed it knew those coordinates within +/- 1 second. As someone mentioned upthread, you need to understand the difference between accuracy and precision.




First, there is no such thing as "atypical gram negative pneumonia"; all forms of pneumonia are either gram positive, gram negative, or atypical. Fail.

Second, please explain exactly what symptoms of any form of pneumonia Borman was exhibiting?

Third, please explain exactly what it is that NASA didn't do about Borman's condition that you feel should have been done. I would ask if you have any qualifications in space medicine to give your opinion any weight, but "atypical gram negative pneumonia" makes it clear that you don't.




Frankly, the only one pretending here is you--pretending to be an expert on subjects of which you clearly have little or no knowledge.




Argument from personal incredulity. And the Soviets viewed displays of scientific and technical prowess as a means of demonstrating the superiority of Communism, so they most certainly could have been conducting space exploration for purely scientific purposes.

What kind of nonsense is this SpitfireIX??????......Do you really want me to embarrass NASA again with another simple telling of their bogus story as it relates to the Eagle landing site coordinates? Oh well.... since you insist,.....

The coordinates given to the Lick Observatory scientists ON THE EVENING OF 07/20/1969 were, 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east(see the Remmington Stone article and the email from Joe Wampler to me as references, both previously posted). These were the VERY !!!!! coordinates provided to the Lick Observatory scientists on the evening of 07/20/1969. This point is not in dispute. IT IS CONFIRMED BY THE SCIENTIST WHO TOOK THE CALL FROM HOUSTON!!!!!

H. David Reed, the Eagle launch FIDO wrote in his piece appearing in the book FROM THE TRENCH OF MISSION CONTROL TO THE SURFACE OF THE MOON that the coordinate sets given to him as possible coordinate solution options were 5 in number, and all 5 options were over 4(closer to 5) miles from 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east.

Reed employed a reverse rendezvous radar technique in arriving at a solution roughly 1200 feet (by my calculation) from the official solution (00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" as above).

It is generally acknowledged that Reed's Eagle landing site solution was used as part of the launch solution for the LM when it allegedly left the surface of the moon on 07/21/1969. Whose solution could it have been?

More than a day after the Eagle launch and alleged rendezvous with the CM, the CapCom/Bruce McCandless and Armstrong per the Apollo 11 voice transcript dialog, allegedly have a conversation in alleged cislunar space, subject; "THE $64,000 QUESTION". During this rather infamous conversation, the CapCom reminds Armstrong that NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THE EAGLE LANDED STILL, OVER A DAY AFTER THE ASTRONAUTS ALLEGEDLY LEFT THE LUNAR SURFACE!!!!!! THIS IS WHY THE CAPCOM REFERS TO IT AS "THE $64,000 QUESTION" NOBODY KNOWS/KNEW THE ANSWER.

In his fabulous book, TAKING SCIENCE TO THE MOON, geologist and Apollo Lunar scientist Donald Beattie writes that as the location of the LM was still not known after the astronauts alleged return to earth 07/24/1969, he and the other Apollo lunar scientists worked on flight data analysis and photo analysis and arrived at 00 41'15" north and 23 26' 00 east as the Eagle landing site coordinates ROUGHLY ONE WEEK AFTER APOLLO 11'S RETURN.

THOSE VERY COORDINATES WERE THEN GIVEN BY THE APOLLO LUNAR SCIENTISTS TO THE LICK OBSERVATORY SCIENTISTS WHO HAD AMAZINGLY BEEN GIVEN THE VERY SAME COORDINATES BY HOUSTON PEOPLE ROUGHLY 10 DAYS PRIOR, ON THE EVENING OF 07/20/1969 IN REAL TIME, THAT IS, AT THE TIME THAT THE ASTRONAUTS WERE ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WALKING ON THE MOON.

FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So somebody in Houston knew SpitfireIX that the coordinates of the Eagle's perch was 00 41'15" north and 23 26' 00" east on July 20 1969. The Lick Observatory astronomer who took the call from Houston, Joseph Wampler, is not lying. Joseph Wampler is not making this up. Those were the numbers that he was given on the night of 07/20/1969.

What makes you think your objecting to my bringing up this point SpitfireIX is going to change Joe Wampler's statement as to what he heard? Or did he hear wrong SpitfeireIX? I suggest you call or write to him as I did and see if he might not oblige you with a different answer to support your version of things. Joe Wampler only has tons of integrity, just the type for you to work on.

Why don't you guys at least give it up on this point? The boys at Lick Observatory aren't changing their minds (as a matter of fact, I spoke to some of them at their last "star party" about the events of 07/20/1969, their story stands my friends!.....), and NASA can't rewrite their idiotic narrative with the $64,000 line. THAT IS SO SO SO SO SO FUNNY!!!, THE $64,000 COCK AND BULL LINE.

Of all the things that would be such a blast to do, the most fun and enjoyable activity at an Apollo 11 "star party" with live pretend astronauts would be to figuratively dope slap those 3 yoyos by way of bringing up CapCom McCandless' $64,000 question, and do so, bring it up with a copy of Remmington Stone's article/personal account of the 07/20/19 Apollo 11 landing night events in one hand and a copy of Joe Wampler's personal emails to me verifying Stone's account and them some in the other hand.

"But Neil... You so so so so lying your heiny off sorry chump!!!!! Didn't you know you clowns are SO BUSTED????????!!!!!!!! READ THIS!!!!!!!"

YES!!!! The world's most gratifying dope slapping session......

I hardly need anything explained to me SpitfireIX with all due respect, but it would seem my buddy Joe Wampler at Lick Observatory does, seeing as he and Stone are the ones writing the history that you would like to have changed. Ize only reporting what they be tellin' me SpitfireIX. I suggest you write to them, or come to our next Friends of Lick Observatory Star Party. It's cold up there on Mount Hamilton, but things sure are interesting. You outta' check it out........Last time we had a star party, a whole lecture was devoted to the MOON!......



Silly silly silly me, I know so much of nothing SpitfireIX, you are sure to "win this one" simply by what?.... I really and truly do not know......

 

[Patrick1000]

This One Is Guaranteed To Blow Your Mind.......

not to mention take our community collective Apollo Fraud associated nausea to yet an all the more intolerable level. Sit down, take 3 breaths, brace yourselves, this one is gonna' HURT.

With regard to the MSFN's not being able to locate the Eagle once it had landed, we all recall the official Neil Armstrong's explanation as he himself provided to his official authorized biographer James Hansen.

Armstrong emphasized that MSFN tracks moving objects. It uses doppler analysis in the precise determination of a probe or space ship's velocity. Once landed, the Eagle wasn't moving, not moving and couldn't be "tracked", couldn't be FOUND, correct???????

Well no no no no.......

Here's the Apollo Program coordinate system zoo;

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700076120_1970076120.pdf

Who says the Eagle is "standing still" post landing?????? With respect to its orbiting about the earth-moon system barycenter, Eagle would have been moving at 2200 miles an hour when parked their on the moon, somewhere upon the Tranquility Base flows. The Earth would have been moving about the barycenter as well, and the earth/tracking stations were of course rotating also. LOTS OF MOVEMENT!

So??????????????????????????????

Armstrong is again lying his space heiny off. Contrary to Armstrong's claims about tracking difficulties, the navigation people would have been plenty well capable of determining the Eagle's precise location.

Turn on the Eagle's transponder. The signal emanating from the moon's Eagle would have been shifted by the movement and the so shifted signal would have been picked up by the dish at say Canberra.

WHILE WE ARE AT IT, WHY NOT USE GOLDSTONE TOO, USE BOTH CANBERRA AND GOLDSTONE AND TURN THIS INTO A VERY LONG BASE INTERFEROMETRY VLBI MEASUREMENT. For those unfamiliar with VLBI, think of it as using two receivers far apart to make one giant receiver/"telescope" to locate something with all the more precision. The "telescope"/interferometer/multidish receiver/tracker can be viewed as being as wide/big as the separation of the dishes.

VLBI by wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Long_Baseline_Interferometry

So in the case of NASA/Apollo/Military tracking, they began by ranging/velocity determinations with a single dish and then moved to multiple dishes, tracking objects simultaneously with two or more receiving platforms. As such, they were employing interferometric methods. I read the details of this in NASA's own, NASA'S FIRST FIFTY YEARS.

In the example above, were one to use Canberra in Australia and Goldstone in California simultaneously, one would then have a very wide based "telescope"/interferometry dish, in fact, a dish as effectively wide as the entire Pacific Ocean. So in the case of finding the Eagle, Armstong and the Capcom McCandless were sure feediung us plenty-obull. All's they needed to do, were any of this real, would be to turn the Eagle's transponder on, receive that signal at Canberra and/or Goldstone and determine the landed Eagle's position with great accuracy. This position determination would be made of course with respect to an x,y,z coordinate system HAVING A WELL DEFINED/DETERMINED EARTH CENTERED COORDINATE SYSTEM. Then, after the LM location was made, a computer would run the program for as straightforward conversion to lunar selenographic coordinatesas as appropriate.


VIOLA!!!!!! They would have known where the Eagle was all along. And they thought we thought everything had to be moon centered when it came to "finding the Eagle". Can't fool me anyhoo......

I'll go over this in greater detail in a later post, but want to get it out there. It is so critical.

Also, just like with tracking by way of single dishes VLBI techniques CAN BE EMPLOYED IN REVERSE AS WELL, just like with our SLBM submarines in the case of the TRANSIT system. If you can locate a sub with TRANSIT running the calculation based on data from a single satellite, you can do all the better locating oneself with multiple VLBI dishes, like say positioned at libration points 4 and 5 say. Now THAT!!!!! is a big and accurate "telescope"/interferometer and EARTH RECEIVING PLATFORM LOCATER.

Go ahead and read about VLBI as I'll be tapping into this extensively as well as working with other navigation systems. Keep in mind, when they run these systems in the forward direction they function as trackers/velocity determination providers. When run in reverse, they work as a means to locate earth based receivers.

One dish is good, two or more better. The farther apart the two are, the bigger the effective "telescope"/interferometer/device for locating something, the better the position determination. When such a "system" is run in reverse, the farther apart signalers are, the better the locating.

Libation resorts for wayward space probes anyone????????

 

[Loss Leader]

So, you're just not taking questions then? Even about the very things you just said?

 

[JayUtah]

Really, Patrick? More walls of repetitious text and no closer to a demonstration of basic competence. Wouldn't you like to know whether the answers to the questions I asked you helped or hurt your case? Don't you wonder how many readers have already worked the problems and now know something you don't?

I suppose you're very nervous indeed.

 

[slyjoe]

Once again, our OP ignores questions put to him. Why doesn't he answer Loss Leader's and others' questions? Because he is inept and unable to answer.

Patrick, English is not the language of engineering. You consistently use English instead of numbers. Your view of "how this works" ignores the numbers - e.g., amount of error in locations/velocities/clocks, etc. You keep saying "precisely" - what does this mean? You need to take error sources into account to determine any judgement of your proposed techniques - that's what engineering is about. What would the CEP/SEP be on the moon using your VLBI technique? Didn't you say we need the moon to calculate distances across the ocean? Aren't Canberra (I know) and Goldstone separated by an ocean?

Matt, sts, jay, and others have provided a wealth of information to you, but you seem unwilling or unable to absorb it. I laud them for their patience. Some of us who work in this field are not swayed by your arguments such as they are...

 

[R.A.F.]

So, you're just not taking questions then? Even about the very things you just said?

Very good point....seems when Patrick is faced with substantial questions, instead of responding, he devolves into the wall of text, handwaving, screaming fraud, fraud, fraud, type of posts.

 

[sts60]

I am under no "illusion" that you will actually answer, because I don't ask that question with you in mind, but every time I ask, the "fence sitters" must say to themselves, "if Apollo were really faked, then why can't Patrick "debunk" the images and returned samples?"

Wait. What "fence sitters"?

To anyone lurking in this thread - do you feel "on the fence" about the claims made herein?

 

[grmcdorman]

Who says the Eagle is "standing still" post landing?????? With respect to its orbiting about the earth-moon system barycenter, Eagle would have been moving at 2200 miles an hour when parked their on the moon, somewhere upon the Tranquility Base flows. The Earth would have been moving about the barycenter as well, and the earth/tracking stations were of course rotating also. LOTS OF MOVEMENT!

You still don't understand Doppler ranging, do you?^* You've been asked questions that should underscore why this is irrelevant; you've been told why this won't work.

Patrick, this really underscores the emptiness of your position. Doppler is (relatively) easy to understand, yet you continue to make fundamental errors that anyone with a modicum of research and understanding could avoid - despite being corrected not once but multiple times.


* There are other reasons why Patrick may be committing this error, of course. The astute reader can no doubt imagine at least one.

 

[Garrison]

So, you're just not taking questions then? Even about the very things you just said?

I've asked repeatedly for specs, pictures, or accounts from persons who worked on this military hardware and recieved no response. Given that it has been 40 plus years since Apollo I simply cannot believe that details of such hardware would not have leaked out by now, especially since the fall of the Soviet Union opened up so much of their archive. Details of the failed Soviet manned lunar program came out then but not one word about this scheme to instrument the moon? It is high time Patrick backed up this claim with some hard evidence.

 

[matt.tansy]

not to mention take our community collective Apollo Fraud associated nausea to yet an all the more intolerable level. Sit down, take 3 breaths, brace yourselves, this one is gonna' HURT.

The only thing that hurt was my hope that no one could be so ignorant about science. But I've been feeling that hurt since your OP.

It uses doppler analysis in the precise determination of a probe or space ship's velocity.

As I've already pointed out numerous times, as well as nominated you for a Stundie for your complete ignorance of the subject, the Doppler effect only tells you the radial velocity of an object, not it's total velocity. If an object is moving away from you at 10 mph and perpendicularly to you at 1000 mph the Doppler shift will measure 10 mph, not, I repeat not, 1000.05 mph.

Who says the Eagle is "standing still" post landing?????? With respect to its orbiting about the earth-moon system barycenter, Eagle would have been moving at 2200 miles an hour when parked their on the moon, somewhere upon the Tranquility Base flows. The Earth would have been moving about the barycenter as well, and the earth/tracking stations were of course rotating also. LOTS OF MOVEMENT!

But practically none of it is radial velocity. As I mentioned previously, just knowing the up or down shift will not tell you how far from the object you are. NAVSAT worked because it generated many lines of position that crossed at the receiver's location because the NAVSAT subtended a very large angle during its pass. The key word there is "pass".

Turn on the Eagle's transponder.

The Eagle did have a transponder! Hey, you got something right!

But... then you blew it.

It was a short range VHF transponder that responded to signals sent by CSM. The CSM would send out a signal, the LM's transponder would reply, the CSM timed the delay between transmitting and receiving a reply thereby determining the range. In conjunction with the sextant angles the computer would calculate the maneuvers to perform to rendezvous with the LM if the LM was unable to perform the maneuvers itself.

What you meant to say but didn't understand the difference (no surprise there) is the CSM and LM used the USB (Unified S-Band) communication system that combined voice, command, telemetry, video, ranging signals, etc into one frequency. It was always on and so long as the spacecraft were visible, it was constantly communicating with the MSFN.

WHILE WE ARE AT IT, WHY NOT USE GOLDSTONE TOO, USE BOTH CANBERRA AND GOLDSTONE

Don't forget Madrid and Parkes as well as the myriad of 10 meter dish stations that tracked the spacecraft in the backup capacity.

AND TURN THIS INTO A VERY LONG BASE INTERFEROMETRY VLBI MEASUREMENT. For those unfamiliar with VLBI, think of it as using two receivers far apart to make one giant receiver/"telescope" to locate something with all the more precision. The "telescope"/interferometer/multidish receiver/tracker can be viewed as being as wide/big as the separation of the dishes.

VLBI by wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Long_Baseline_Interferometry

So in the case of NASA/Apollo/Military tracking, they began by ranging/velocity determinations with a single dish and then moved to multiple dishes, tracking objects simultaneously with two or more receiving platforms. As such, they were employing interferometric methods. I read the details of this in NASA's own, NASA'S FIRST FIFTY YEARS.

In the example above, were one to use Canberra in Australia and Goldstone in California simultaneously, one would then have a very wide based "telescope"/interferometry dish, in fact, a dish as effectively wide as the entire Pacific Ocean.

Just like the Doppler effect, you read something and completely failed to understand it.

You are confusing "triangulation" with "interferometry".

So in the case of finding the Eagle, Armstong and the Capcom McCandless were sure feediung us plenty-obull. All's they needed to do, were any of this real, would be to turn the Eagle's transponder on, receive that signal at Canberra and/or Goldstone and determine the landed Eagle's position with great accuracy.

The worst case pointing accuracy of the big dishes was 0.025°. Let's assume a pointing accuracy of 0.001°. At the distance of the Moon that accuracy is an area 8 miles in diameter. That is why the dishes could not help refine the position of the LM on the surface. That is why the CSM had a sextant. That is why the spacecraft transmitted their state vectors, as updated by the INS, to the MSFN.

4 miles was well within the crosstrack capability of the LM's ascent delta-v budget.

Saying they could use the Doppler shift of the LM on the surface to find its position after I have repeatedly told you the Doppler shift can only be used to measure radial velocity is the worst kind of ignorance: willful ignorance.

 

[Hans]

Wait. What "fence sitters"?

To anyone lurking in this thread - do you feel "on the fence" about the claims made herein?

Not at all; there is a fence post impaled thru the heart of this very dead claim. What I am amazed at is that the intelligent responders to these 'claims' are able to retain their sanity when faced by such a barrage of scientific ineptness!

 

[Patrick1000]

Of course I am taking questions.......

So, you're just not taking questions then? Even about the very things you just said?

Of course I am taking questions.......

What does my RESPONSE to SpitfireIX look like Loss Leader? Not a response to his statement? Looks like a pretty straightforward response to me.......

I believe I was pretty direct in ANSWERING HIM, answering SpitfireIX. He should not ask such a silly old "question" if he would prefer a response to something "new".

He brought up this ancient stuff, and indeed it is very very ancient, but as I said, I choose the most important questions to respond to. SpitfireIX's "question"/statement was/is exceedingly important, as he is implying there was/is no Armstrong/Reed/Beattie/NASA/Lick Observatory Contradiction. That is what this thread is about, the heart of it "Lost Bird............". If someone brings this up in a statement or "question", they are going to get hammered again and again and again from my end with the TRUTH as regards this particular internally incoherent feature of the bogus NASA narrative. This constellation of inconsistencies will be hammered mercilessly and hammered EVERY TIME EVERY TIME EVERY TIME, as the point is old but PARAMOUNT.

REED AND ARMSTRONG AND MCCANDLESS AND WAMPLER AND BEATTIE AND THE NASA PARTY LINE ALL MOST DECIDEDLY DO NOT AGREE ON THIS POINT, not by a parsec; where the Eagle was when it was known where it was known how it was known where it might be could be outta' will be when all was said and done a week and a half later........ Confused? Yes, so too should everyone who ponied up so much CASH for so much BULL.

The ultimate first moon landing was indeed an ultimate irony, landing on the moon; television cameras, pictures, magazines, newspapers, television, radio, television, television, television, all this attention, but at the same time THE EAGLE IS NOWHERE NOWHERE NOWHERE, because even the guys with the EXACT COORDINATES, THE LICK OBSERVATORY SCIENTISTS DON'T KNOW WHERE IT IS, DESPITE HOLDING THE FACTS IN THEIR HANDS A WEEK AND A HALF BEFORE NASA ITSELF OFFICIALLY HAS THE COORDINATES THEMSELVES......

ALL OF THIS ATTENTION, THE WORLD'S ATTENTION, ON THIS SOMEWHERE THAT IS NOWHERE........

I would suggest Loss Leader that you yourself might suggest to your colleagues to leave this "QUESTION" alone, as every time they bring it up I shall quote Armstrong, McCandless, Reed, Wampler, Beattie, NASA's own fraudulent Mission Report. Your side is of course entitled to call witnesses as you/they please, though I would suggest mine are quite expert and difficult to refute.

The VLBI discussion is a an extension on the Doppler/ranging/navigation subject, but I have NEVER myself discussed VLBI in any detail previously. Typically, when I introduce a new subject like VLBI, I don't attach it to anyone's prior comments. I'll probably do the same with optical tracking/navigation as well when I introduce that subject, and anything at all I introduce that is new from my end for that matter, unless my new subject, and newly introduced VIEW on that subject, relates to a previously asked direct question which is exceedingly unlikely. Make sense?

Unless you guys are clairvoyant, it hardly makes sense to answer your questions on MY VIEWS with regard to a newly introduced subject like VLBI and its role in the Apollo fraud before those questions responding to my said views on VLBI or any new subject for that matter have been asked, unless of course you guys are riding like space cowboys on the backs of faster than light tachyons.......

 

[R.A.F.]

Wait. What "fence sitters"?

To anyone lurking in this thread - do you feel "on the fence" about the claims made herein?

Ya know, you're right. The manner in which Patrick "argues" his "points" pretty much guarantees that any "fence sitters" are fully aware of the irrationality of patrick's "claims".


Yesterday, my Son (he's 33....man, I'm old ) and I were discussing the question, do hoax believers think the shuttle was faked. He rightly* pointed out that "if" HB's thought the shuttle was real, that the only difference between Earth orbit and going to the Moon was a simply matter of velocity...add "enough", and point in the right direction, and you can't help but go to the Moon. That brings to mind the following question...

Patrick...do you think the Shuttle program was faked?? Astronaut John Young flew the Gemini, Apollo, and the FIRST shuttle flight(s). Is he only lying about Apollo?...or were his Gemini and shuttle flights "fake", too??





*...and YES...I am very proud of my Son's rationality, and only hope that I had something to do with instilling it in him...

 

[JayUtah]

Just in case Patrick forgot what the most recent questions were:

1. A spacecraft is orbiting the Moon in a circular retrograde orbit with a period of 2.75 hours. It emits a radio beacon signal at 2.500 GHz. Compute its Doppler-shifted frequency at AOS and LOS as observed from an Earth station where the Moon is at its zenith. You may simplify the problem by assuming the observer lies in the plane of the spacecraft's orbit, and that Earth's rotation is not a factor. Please show all your work.
2. Similarly, a lunar surface station emits its own beacon signal at 2.375 GHz. Compute its Doppler shifted frequency as observed from the same Earth station at AOS and LOS of the orbiting spacecraft. Please show all your work.
3. You are the technician responsible for a spacecraft tracking radar. Under what conditions, if any, does the rotation of the Earth need to be accounted for in the computations?
4. What is the period of a 3-hour halo orbit around the Earth-Moon L2 point?
5. What effect, if any, would such a halo orbit have on the Doppler profile of a spacecraft in such an orbit, as it relates to Doppler-based navigation from Earth?
6. True or false? Doppler analysis as used in tracking measures the spacecraft's velocity along its orbital path.

 

[Agatha]

<snip reams of ignorance>

VIOLA!!!!!! They would have known where the Eagle was all along. And they thought we thought everything had to be moon centered when it came to "finding the Eagle". Can't fool me anyhoo......

<snip yet more misunderstanding of basic concepts>

VIOLA?

No doubt you'll try to pass this off as an example of your well known sense of humour. But it's just one more thing in the long list of things you appear not to understand.

 

[Loss Leader]

Confused? Yes, so too should everyone who ponied up so much CASH for so much BULL.

Why is that? According to your analysis, the moon missions were vital to the defense of the US; they provided the military with extraordinary capabilities and security. As a result, the cold war ended without anybody dying in a nuclear holocaust. And we still got Tang, freeze-dried ice cream, and whatever.

So, assuming the blinders were ripped away from our eyes, why would the reaction not be one of amazed gratitude.

I would suggest Loss Leader that you yourself might suggest to your colleagues to leave this "QUESTION" alone

Patrick, do you realize that we are not colleagues? Most of the people talking to you in this thread, I've never even heard of. I'm a mod and I've never heard of them.

We don't live together in a big house. We don't coordinate our responses. We don't have a plan. We're diverse individuals spread throughout the US and the world who have individually considered what you\ve said and each separately found you wrong.

Do you understand that?

Your side is of course entitled to call witnesses as you/they please, though I would suggest mine are quite expert and difficult to refute.

Great. My first question on cross-examination of every single one of your experts is, "In your expert opinion, did the Apollo program put human beings on the surface of the moon and return them safely?"

Then, for my first witness, I call the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.