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In Search of Common Ground: A Conversation with Ron Wieck

Man, some of y'all should just lighten up....
shure posted the OP then came forward with an unfocussed "wall of text".

All I posted was a request to focus his claim. It is up to him to show how and if he relates his posts to the recorded conversation.
...I don't believe in a LIHOP-style coverup or that airliners were shot down, and I don't personally feel like rearguing it all, but you'll have to admit this is a MUCH saner discussion than ones about death rays and nanotermites. This is progress.
I don't believe in any overall LIHOP. I remain open to argument that there may have been lots of individual agency level bits of decision making slackness. But no overall plot.

There is no discussion here yet and claiming progress seems to be jumping the gun as far as discussion on this forum is concerned. There is opportunity for "...a MUCH saner discussion..." There may be evidence of that in the recording but it hasn't started here --- yet.

...Ron's a good friend. He can be quite calm. :)
Ron is not the one conducting debate here unless shure is a sock - unlikely given the recorded conversation. And his friendship with you is not relevant at this stage.

But let's see if shure will join in "...a MUCH saner discussion..." If he can we will then be able to claim "progress". :)
 
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:eek:

"Shields holding, captain!"

Anyway, said what I came to say. Let's try to keep it calm.
 
shure.

There are 3742 words in your "mega post".

The whole post loaded with emotive presuppositions and, despite your claims otherwise, clearly indicating that your agenda is political.

If you have a claim to discuss here can you not state that claim concisely?

Spamming the thread will win you no friends.

Are you suggesting that one or more of the hijacked aircraft should have been shot down?

If so show us your time line indicating the earliest time that a shoot down decision could have been plausible, indicating which aircraft was or were the targets and explaining the "cost - benefit" of shoot down or not for that/those aircraft. (Risk analysis either way if you prefer those terms). For your first explanation the latter can be simply stated as likely deaths either way - I will excuse you the need to assess the world wide political cost of such an act at this stage.

And, if you are not claiming there should have been one or more shoot downs, then kindly stop talking about it and tell us your real concern.

Seconded
Unless shure has no new hypothesis and no new evidence and no new argument. In that case, the thread is really only an invitation to listen to a friendly chat between two buddies, rehashing old stuff. I am not interested then.
 
But again, even if Cheney gave the orders...

Military officials ignored Cheney’s 9/11 shoot-down order
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/08/military-officials-ignored-cheneys-911-shoot-down-order/


please refer to the following link for the full information:

Link: How Bush And Rumsfeld created a Stand Down
Which is it? Was Cheney in on it or not? If Cheney had the power to order a shoot-down, that means that he would likely know something about what was going on. And if he did order a shoot-down, how could there also be a stand-down?

The second link's "deserted their posts in a time of war" is pure hyperbole. America had suffered a terrorist attack, but they weren't at war. The rest of the post tries to link disparate, quote mined sentence fragments from hundreds of pages, like Truthers often do, and say it Means Something.
 
How does this shoot down order jive with the fact that the scrambled jets had no live ammo?

Seems pretty self-contradictory.
 
The point is there were no shoot down orders in place in case the military needed to act.

The reason there were no shoot down orders in place was because the two guys who had the power to authorize them (Bush/Rumsfeld) never did.

People can argue that Bush gave shoot down orders to Cheney. Although, that is something the Commission found no evidence for and does not believe.

Hypothetically let say Bush did give Cheney shoot down orders, the issue then becomes why did Bush relay shoot down orders to Cheney in the first place?

Under those circumstances Bush didn't follow proper protocols, putting the security of the nation at risk by being derelict in his duties as commander and chief.

I'm willing to bet that Douglas Cochrane's testimony would shed a lot of light on this issue that neither truthers or debunkers seem to understand.

Would anyone hear support Cochrane's testimony being released? As long as it didn't reveal any sources or methods and wasn't a threat to national security?
 
Quick question: Ever hear of a guy named Alexander Haig?

I've always felt that's what Cheney was doing -- he knew he wasn't authorized by the book to give a shoot-down order, but comms were down, the clock was ticking, and by George something needed doing. If he winds up facing the music later for exceeding his authority, so be it.

I despise Cheney, but if this is what he was doing, I actually respect him for it.

As it happened, of course, there was no shoot-down, so the whole thing was a wash. Leaving the pertinent question of "how can we improve our processes / comms so this never happens again?" That's certainly worth looking into. Not really a conspiracy, though.
 
The point is there were no shoot down orders in place in case the military needed to act.

Has it ever dawned on you that this would not be the best course of action in all situations? What if the plane hits a school full of children after it's shot down.

Would you think it's a good idea to shoot down a plane over a populated area?
 
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shure:

Maybe we should start at the beginning:

How many times prior to 9/11 were commercial aircraft used as a weapon? Do you believe in the saying "what goes up must come down"?

Lets start there.
 
9/11 was a whole new beast. The hijackers knew this and that's why it worked to such perfection.

As soon as word got out that this wasn't your typical "land at the airport and make demands" event, changes were implemented. See flight 93.
 
Quick question: Ever hear of a guy named Alexander Haig?

I've always felt that's what Cheney was doing -- he knew he wasn't authorized by the book to give a shoot-down order,

I've thought about it along the same lines as I think you are suggesting here. Although, if that was the case, why would Cheney be stuck in that position in the first place?

We know that Cheney and Bush talked on the phone prior to his first address to the nation. The subject of their conversation was about what Bush would say when he addressed the nation. No talk of any orders.

but comms were down,

I've heard that being used a reason too. The problem with that is Bush was on the phone with Rice. He was also on the phone with Cheney. Bush was also on the phone with Rumsfeld. In none of these instances were orders discussed. Furthermore, just like Cheney, Bush had his military aide with him and could have gave the orders directly to him.

There is also the fact that Rumsfeld (the only other person authorized to give the orders) was sitting in his office not answering the phone! Rumsfeld knew the country was under attack, he should have been in the PEOC. Or, at the very least, he should have been answering his phone.

As it happened, of course, there was no shoot-down, so the whole thing was a wash. Leaving the pertinent question of "how can we improve our processes / comms so this never happens again?" That's certainly worth looking into. Not really a conspiracy, though.

There was nothing wrong with the process. There was something wrong with people following proper proceedures.
 
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How does this shoot down order jive with the fact that the scrambled jets had no live ammo?

Seems pretty self-contradictory.
I'm not sure if all of the jets were unarmed but we know that at least some of them were and the pilots of those jets were prepared to hit the hijacked planes with their own if necessary to prevent them from crashing into the Capital.

Quick question: Ever hear of a guy named Alexander Haig?

I've always felt that's what Cheney was doing -- he knew he wasn't authorized by the book to give a shoot-down order, but comms were down, the clock was ticking, and by George something needed doing. If he winds up facing the music later for exceeding his authority, so be it.

I despise Cheney, but if this is what he was doing, I actually respect him for it.

Exactly. I'm no fan of Cheney either but at that point, he was the one in a secure location with reliable communication channels and information coming in from all pertinent agencies.

Bush was first in a holding pattern at Emma Booker until the Secret Service secured the route to the airport, then in transit from the school to the Sarasota airport then onto Air Force One and headed to a bunker in Nebraska. By the time the issue of shooting down 93 came up, 77 had already crashed into the Pentagon, where Rumsfeld was helping evacuate wounded. Cheney was simply in a better position than the others to know what was happening in a situation where time was of the essence. And yeah, if I'd been in his shoes, I would've done what I thought best at the time and worry about any consequences after the attacks were over.

When the **** hits the fan as monumentally as it did on 9/11, "proper procedure" is one of the first things that gets thrown out the window. In a situation like that, you need results and fast, proper channels be damned.
 
shure:

Maybe we should start at the beginning:

How many times prior to 9/11 were commercial aircraft used as a weapon? Do you believe in the saying "what goes up must come down"?

Lets start there.

How much intelligence was there about planes being used as weapons?

Ever hear of the Bojinka plot?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot

Ever hear of the briefing papaer "Islamic Extremist Learns to Fly."
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/apr2004/911-a27.shtml

Funny how Tenet gets that and then hops on a plane to meet with Bush. What a coincidence. Tenet lied to the Commission about that meeting with Bush... Or maybe he just forgot. Right!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cIo33eVSKg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12951-2004Apr14.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20010913...use.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010825-2.html


Tenet must have been thinking the same thing as Bush when the planes hit... "Gosh what a terrible pilot"

Right!!!

Eleanor Hill presented an excellent chronology of warnings which Carl Levin later expanded on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPZKM-N6dfg

We had the Yemen switchboard tapped for how long???
http://www.historycommons.org/timel..._and_programs=complete_911_timeline_yemen_hub

The Cia was tracking Alhazmi and Almihdhar for how long???
http://secrecy-kills.s3.amazonaws.com/BleePodcast1.mp3

Bob Graham told me they received many warnings...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8De2Z6jqIE

Our buddy Bandar was what?

"Following the movements of most of the terrorists with precision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAw_nT8DZp4

No warnings from Saudi Arabia though. Hmmmm!

Who's buddy?

Our Buddy or Bush's buddy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVdYGnSZqdU

"The former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee tells Salon that the White House has suppressed convincing evidence that Saudi government agents aided at least two of the hijackers."
http://www.salon.com/2004/09/08/graham_8/

"We were seeing in writing what we had suspected for some time: the White House was directing the cover-up"
Intelligence Matters pg 166
 
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Which brings me to another question I would like people here to answer...

Would you support the release of the 28 redacted pages, as well as any and all other information as long as it does not reveal any sources or methods and is not a threat to national security?
 
Has it ever dawned on you that this would not be the best course of action in all situations? What if the plane hits a school full of children after it's shot down.

Would you think it's a good idea to shoot down a plane over a populated area?
I beat you to it asking that question when I asked shure to:
... [explain] the "cost - benefit" of shoot down or not for that/those aircraft. (Risk analysis either way if you prefer those terms)....
Maybe we need to spell it out in detail for shure to understand the risk of "collateral damage" - I was giving him benefit of doubt by presenting the question in the generic form.

But the real issue of "process" here is that shure is trapping us in true "truther style" into debating issues in an arse about sequence. Thereby getting us into discussing his unsupported presumptions. Let's ask him to progress logically.

This is a logical sequence of questions:

shure "Are you suggesting that one or more of the hijacked aircraft should have been shot down?"

If "No!" then why are we talking about the failure to follow procedures whether or not your presumption is valid.

If "Yes" the next question is "was shoot-down plausible" and that subsumes two main issues:

Issue one was it plausible in the time line available for the decision? So show us that there was an available time line before we go any further. To do that you will need to consider:

Issue two which what was the risk management balance between "shoot down" and "don't shoot down" (As stated earlier I will accept a simple "deaths either way" explanation as a ball park test of plausibility at this stage. There is a bigger issue of the political consequences if the US shoots down a civilian aircraft carrying passengers who are not US citizens. {sure its a political issue shooting down US folks but lets get these questions into some semblance of sequence and importance - the international dimension dominates.})

IF the combination of those two says "shoot-down not plausible" then why discuss it? So you need to show that it was plausible before we go any further. You may want to "jump the gun". Most of us don't want to.

However, if the combination of those two says "shoot-down was plausible" we can leave the political dimension of plausibility on hold and let you, shure, move on to your claims about procedures.

shure it is a waste of time discussing your claims that procedures were not followed if there is no plausible scenario for the procedures to apply.

So let's have a reasoned debate please shure ---- not one starting truther style three parts through the argument with all the base premises ignored and framed in presumptions which you want to apply where they did or did not.
 
Which brings me to another question I would like people here to answer...

Would you support the release of the 28 redacted pages, as well as any and all other information as long as it does not reveal any sources or methods and is not a threat to national security?
Who gives a proverbial about redacted pages detail without establishing any reason to be concerned? So get to the basics "What claim are you attempting to get us discussing?"

What is the general policy you seem to be advocating without actually stating it explicitly?

When will you desist from JAQing with loaded questions so there can be a reasoned discussion?
 
People can argue that Bush gave shoot down orders to Cheney. Although, that is something the Commission found no evidence for and does not believe.

Hypothetically let say Bush did give Cheney shoot down orders, the issue then becomes why did Bush relay shoot down orders to Cheney in the first place?

Under those circumstances Bush didn't follow proper protocols, putting the security of the nation at risk by being derelict in his duties as commander and chief.

Why do you want to talk about the implications of a hypothetical situation which you yourself acknowledge didn't happen?
 

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