Merged So there was melted steel

Miragememories said:
Grizzly Bear seems convinced that he didn't need to be there. That looking at a pic he has only partially sourced was sufficient.

Nah, he doesn't need to see with his own eyes, no touching, no magnets, why bother when you are convinced of your belief.

MM
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A few pages ago you weren't even sure what the mass was... indicating to me you've never seen an assembly either in person, in a text book or paid attention to those things in either media...

Professionals have to draw it in documentation, and see it assembled routinely.... do you somehow think something that basic would be unreadable in the picture you keep using to people who have worked with design documentation and seen how assemblies are put together in a construction project? A minimum skill I expect architects to have is the ability to identify components of a structural assembly when they aren't making cursory, unassessed remarks about melted steel. Information that the photographs contain in abundance.
 
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Miragememories said:
Well what skills do you think an architect would be lacking?
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What the hell kind of a question is that? There are, almost literally, an infinite number of skills any given architect would be lacking. It's on you to communicate what you believe an architect's skill set to be.
 
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Miragememories said:
Well what skills do you think an architect would be lacking?

If you were there examining the meteorite sheeplesnshills, what would you be doing that you think the average architect would not consider?

Grizzly Bear seems convinced that he didn't need to be there. That looking at a pic he has only partially sourced was sufficient.

Nah, he doesn't need to see with his own eyes, no touching, no magnets, why bother when you are convinced of your belief.

MM
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What we are pointing out, MM, is that it certainly seems to contracdict the architect;'s statement, that there is paper embedded in what is said to have at one time been above 1800 degrees. Surely you, an adherent of 911 conspiracy meme's which often tell critics that 'common sense' is more important than scientific investigation, that this is very odd.

An architect's statement in which its not clear if its an off hand opinion or the result of close inspection, nor is it demonstrated thatthis man has any experience in metalurgy, simply is not very good to attempt to prove a with.

Surely if you have any sense of real logic you can see that.
 
Maybe the supports should have been wrapped in paper; it's clearly more heat-resistant than that crap that was actually on there.
 
Cl1mh4224rd said:
Maybe the supports should have been wrapped in paper; it's clearly more heat-resistant than that crap that was actually on there.
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The 500 mph impact of a laden jet airliner ripping off the fireproofing might have had a negative effect on their effectiveness as well.
 
Miragememories said:
"Well what skills do you think an architect would be lacking?

If you were there examining the meteorite sheeplesnshills, what would you be doing that you think the average architect would not consider?

Grizzly Bear seems convinced that he didn't need to be there. That looking at a pic he has only partially sourced was sufficient.

Nah, he doesn't need to see with his own eyes, no touching, no magnets, why bother when you are convinced of your belief."
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jaydeehess said:
"What we are pointing out, MM, is that it certainly seems to contracdict the architect;'s statement, that there is paper embedded in what is said to have at one time been above 1800 degrees. Surely you, an adherent of 911 conspiracy meme's which often tell critics that 'common sense' is more important than scientific investigation, that this is very odd.

An architect's statement in which its not clear if its an off hand opinion or the result of close inspection, nor is it demonstrated thatthis man has any experience in metalurgy, simply is not very good to attempt to prove a with.

Surely if you have any sense of real logic you can see that."
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I do not see any clearly demonstrated contradiction in the architect, Bart Voorsanger's statement.

He never claimed the WTC debris specimen was subjected to 1800 F temperatures as a whole.

After inspecting the WTC debris specimen firsthand, he claimed it contained previously molten steel.

How and when the molten steel became part of the debris specimen is unknown.

How and when the paper became part of the debris specimen is also unknown.

MM
 
Miragememories said:
I do not see any clearly demonstrated contradiction in the architect, Bart Voorsanger's statement.

He never claimed the WTC debris specimen was subjected to 1800 F temperatures as a whole.

After inspecting the WTC debris specimen firsthand, he claimed it contained previously molten steel.

How and when the molten steel became part of the debris specimen is unknown.

How and when the paper became part of the debris specimen is also unknown.

MM
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So what is the most likely scenario for this previously molten metal? You already tried to handwave away my cutting torches. How did it get there?
 
Miragememories said:
I do not see any clearly demonstrated contradiction in the architect, Bart Voorsanger's statement.

He never claimed the WTC debris specimen was subjected to 1800 F temperatures as a whole.

After inspecting the WTC debris specimen firsthand, he claimed it contained previously molten steel.

How and when the molten steel became part of the debris specimen is unknown.

How and when the paper became part of the debris specimen is also unknown.

MM
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Excellent. So solids surrounded what was formerly molten metal in a piece no bigger than a big wheelbarrow, yet that was enough to collapse the towers.

Got it.
 
Miragememories said:
I do not see any clearly demonstrated contradiction in the architect, Bart Voorsanger's statement.

MM
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I know you're not stupid. At some point you will need to show how any of this actually matters. If you can do this the world will start to listen.

You have to admit, the current approach is not working.
 
Im still waiting for MM to explain why it matters that people said there was molten steel on 911, when plenty of people have said the same thing in plenty of other fires.

But this is a guy that doesnt understand that temperatures hot enough to melt steel is gonna burn paper.
 
Edx said:
Im still waiting for MM to explain why it matters that people said there was molten steel on 911, when plenty of people have said the same thing in plenty of other fires.

But this is a guy that doesnt understand that temperatures hot enough to melt steel is gonna burn paper.
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We're asking the same question that "truthers" fail to answer. I was just trying a different approach (and yes. I expect the same result).
 
Edx said:
"...Ive been trying to get MM to talk about the fact that its entirely expected for people to report molten steel on 911 but if you look back he just won't deal with it, no truthers will...."
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Edx said:
"Im still waiting for MM to explain why it matters that people said there was molten steel on 911, when plenty of people have said the same thing in plenty of other fires.

But this is a guy that doesnt understand that temperatures hot enough to melt steel is gonna burn paper."
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Okay Edx.

What sustained temperature is required to melt structural steel?

Are structural steel melting temperatures an expectation in steel-framed highrise fires?

MM
 
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Miragememories said:
Okay Edx.

What sustained temperature is required to melt structural steel?

Are structural steel melting temperatures an expectation in steel-framed highrise fires?

MM
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And you still shy away from the question as to why this is not just a curiosity and you think it's evidence of................well maybe you can define this too sometime.
 
Miragememories said:
Okay Edx.

What sustained temperature is required to melt structural steel?

Are structural steel melting temperatures an expectation in steel-framed highrise fires?

MM
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Still missing the point on purpose I see... It is expected that people will report fires melting steel in other fires.

I've shown you them, you ignored all of it completely, after exclaiming how bad I was for not backing up what i say with sources. So why is it abnormal on 911? It isn't, its expected to see people reporting molten steel just as its expected for people to report "explosions".

Now, there is the other point that you also don't understand. That even if there was some molten steel there is another explanation for it, one which you still refuse to understand. But whatever, you can't even accept that temperature hot enough to melt steel is going to burn paper, maybe you should look up what temperature paper burns at. It doesn't take much to set paper on fire!
 
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DGM said:
And you still shy away from the question as to why this is not just a curiosity and you think it's evidence of................well maybe you can define this too sometime.
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley



;)
 
circularity, circularity, circularity

ozeco41 said:
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley



;)
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Yes, as long as someone is responding the claim can be made that no one would respond if there wasn't something to argue about so the argument itself becomes evidence for the argument.
 
DGM said:
And you still shy away from the question as to why this is not just a curiosity and you think it's evidence of................well maybe you can define this too sometime.
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I have no idea what you are talking about DGM..a few more keystrokes and you might make your message clear?

MM
 
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