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Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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Citizens United deals with independent expenditures, which the government tried to ban. If your law is actually as you claim it is it certainly has a chilling effect on free speech.

I'm quite happy with the 1st Amendment as it is.

Why? What's chilling? I can speak freely about any political party I want. I can stand in the street and talk to people, so long as i'm not causing a disruption (and there's always guys out in the street shouting about god or whatever who don't get moved along). I can say whatever I want on TV, if I can convince whoever hosts the show that my opinion is worth hearing. I can write whatever I want online, I can send out as many emails as I want so long as my ISP doesn't think it's spam. I can talk on social networking, I can bore my friends half to death down the pub, I can indoctrinate any future kids with whatever I like as they grow up. But i'm not allowed to manipulate elections using money.

I feel like my speech is pretty damn free, and as a bonus I get to live in a society where you don't have to have massive financial backing to be a politician. Isn't that what you'd prefer for the USA?
 
So you think it's a good thing that you can't try to influence the democratic process? You mention one hundred pounds as (apparently) a trigger; how much is an endorsement on a significantly trafficked blog worth? Would you argue that bloggers should be thrown in jail? Or only bloggers who have some sort of relationship to party bigwigs? This is a very slippery slope.

I mentioned a hundred thousand pounds, thats what I meant by the "k" on the end. No, I don't think bloggers should be thrown in jail, but while I don't know the rules about blogs, I don't think their endorsement comes to a particularly high financial value anyway. But if it were, and I were writing the laws, i'd argue not to restrict blogger endorsement simply because people choose willingly to go to blogs, whereas leaflets are delivered and handed to them their normal day-to-day business, as is billboard advertising.
 
Why? What's chilling? I can speak freely about any political party I want.

But if your description is accurate, that's only because you have no connection to them.

I suspect your description is not accurate.
 
Citizens United deals with independent expenditures, which the government tried to ban. If your law is actually as you claim it is it certainly has a chilling effect on free speech.

I'm quite happy with the 1st Amendment as it is.

I can't speak for others but in Canada each political party has a spending limit so the approach is different than it might be in the US. Here are recent limits from 2008:

2008 Federal Election: Expense Limits by Party
Animal Alliance Environment Voters Party of Canada
$272,020.62​
Bloc Québécois
$5,066,811.35​
Canadian Action Party
$1,312,843.11​
Christian Heritage Party of Canada
$3,789,711.98​
Communist Party of Canada
$1,599,036.86​
Conservative Party of Canada
$19,999,230.62​
First Peoples National Party of Canada
$291,658.89​
Green Party of Canada
$19,751,412.68​
Liberal Party of Canada
$20,014,302.76​
Libertarian Party of Canada
$1,880,168.34​
Marijuana Party
$537,560.73​
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada
$4,109,588.81​
neorhino.ca
$481,352.40​
New Democratic Party
$20,063,430.10​
Newfoundland and Labrador First Party
$169,243.46​
People's Political Power Party of Canada
$91,748.49​
Progressive Canadian Party
$706,935.92​
Western Block Party
$76,810.64​
Work Less Party
$64,845.31​


(Source: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/federal-campaign-finance-laws-canada )

We also have public financings of political parties in place, something I think you don't have in the US, although we're working to get rid of that.

One of the more onerous attacks on freedom of expression is the restrictions on third-party advertising. Currently the limit is 3K per electoral district and $150,000 total and that covers any time during which an electoral campaign is operating. There are no restrictions outside that period.

Here's a brief summary of the effect of the recent changes limiting public financing of political parties:

With respect to revenues, the new campaign finance regime has been challenging for some political parties, while highly beneficial for others. The Liberal and New Democratic parties, for example, were traditionally dependent on corporate and labour contributions respectively. With the tighter restrictions on, and eventual ban of, these sources of revenue, both parties have lost significant portions of their customary income. Moreover, neither has been able to make up the shortfall through increases in individual contributions. As a result, the Liberals and NDP have become increasingly dependent on public financial support in funding their operations and election activities.

The Conservative Party and its predecessor, the Canadian Alliance Party, have benefited greatly from the campaign finance regime. Unlike the Liberals and NDP, the Conservatives have traditionally enjoyed a large individual contributions base, which has not been restricted by campaign finance laws. The Conservatives have been so successful at collecting individual contributions, that public financial support represents a relatively small portion of their overall revenues. Jansen and Young note that the only barrier to the Conservatives exploiting this financial advantage has been the legislated spending limits on political parties.

(Source: same as previous table).
 
How does overturning a decision which makes corporations individuals not benefit the people? As it were now, corporations can fund unlimited sums to political candidates. Surely this may have some undue influence on the American political system. So how exactly is overturning Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission not going to benefit the average American voter from undue influence?


As other posters have noted, I know the Citizens United case does not involve the issue of legal personhood. However, since I'm hearing more and more calls to end corporate personhood, I'm curious if people who call for this really understand what they're advocating.

If there are any such "End Corporate Personhood" people in this thread, I'd like to ask if you really think we'd be better off not allowing corporations to sue or be sued, not being able to make contracts with corporations or not allowing investors to limit their liability to the limit of their investment?
 
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As an outside observer but with a few friends active in the movement, I get the impression that they see cultivating politicians as a low priority. They are interested in creating a new kind of politics altogether.

....

ROFL. Do you work for our marketing department? I think you must because they talk about creating brand new paradigms or whatnot too.

Politics and political interaction have been around for over five millenia across multiple cultures, continents; movements have ebbed and flowed to span mere months or to have entire social eras named after them. I am extremely sceptical that a tattooed mob of pink-haired jugglers is going to discover "a new kind of politics".
 
But if your description is accurate, that's only because you have no connection to them.

I suspect your description is not accurate.

You've misunderstood. I do have links to a political party, specifically the labour party, and i'm allowed to speak to anyone I like through any medium about them, so long as i'm not spending money to further their political campaigning. My speech is not being restricted here, it's my use of money that is being restricted. And since i'd like to live in a country with as low as possible an entry fee into the democratic system, that is perfectly fine by me.
 

And becoming increasingly irrelevent

preoccupied_640x480jpg.png
 
Ann Coulter advocates shooting Occupy protesters:

"So at the moment anyway, I mean I don't know what's going to happen in New York today, but at the moment I'm not really worried of a movement like SDS which really swept a lot of the college campuses taking over. Of course if it does, just remember the lesson from my book: it just took a few shootings at Kent State to shut that down for good."

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201111260001

~ ~ ~ ~

'Occupy LA Filmmaker Captures Final Images Of Camp Before Midnight Raid'
 
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You've misunderstood. I do have links to a political party, specifically the labour party, and i'm allowed to speak to anyone I like through any medium about them, so long as i'm not spending money to further their political campaigning. My speech is not being restricted here, it's my use of money that is being restricted.

If you cannot buy speech because of government regulations, then your speech is restricted. It really is that simple.

And since i'd like to live in a country with as low as possible an entry fee into the democratic system, that is perfectly fine by me.

The barrier to entry isn't lower, though. Consider, for example, what the Citizens United case was about. A bunch of private citizens got together, and decided to put out a political message. The government prevented them from doing so. That's not a lowering of the barrier to entry. That's raising the barrier to entry. Only people with connections get access. If you're not part of the system, you get shut out.
 
If you cannot buy speech because of government regulations, then your speech is restricted. It really is that simple.

If you're not allowed to set up a massive amplification system and use it to scream obscenities in through the window of an orphanage at 4am, then your speech is restricted. It really is that simple. Is it worth discussing when total freedom of speech might not be the best possible option, and instead just having freedom of speech that doesn't harm other people?

If you agree that sometimes the dissemination of information can be restricted, we can discuss whether or not allowing very rich people to get their opinions much more widely heard than ordinary people during election campaigns is something that constitutes harm to other people.

The barrier to entry isn't lower, though. Consider, for example, what the Citizens United case was about. A bunch of private citizens got together, and decided to put out a political message. The government prevented them from doing so. That's not a lowering of the barrier to entry. That's raising the barrier to entry. Only people with connections get access. If you're not part of the system, you get shut out.

Yes, it is. Before considering the citizens united case, just imagine two countries. In one country, you have to have a huge amount of financial backing to stand a chance of becoming a politician. In the other country, you don't. Quite clearly the barrier to entry is lower in the country where you don't need the financial backing.

As to citizens united, in a system with no restrictions there will be times when ordinary people want to get out a political message (and have the ability to make a film), but they won't be able to do this often enough to counter the people who want to buy political influence or buy an election for a party that offers them a better deal, because they can't afford to. And as i'm sure you recognise, since being right-wing as you are you're sure to be a fairly staunch believer in financial incentive as a motivating factor (intended as an observation, not an insult), the group of ordinary people will also have less motivation to do as you describe, because they have less to gain.
 
If you're not allowed to set up a massive amplification system and use it to scream obscenities in through the window of an orphanage at 4am, then your speech is restricted.
You really think this is a good analogy? An advertisement inconveniences nobody, besides the political opposition.
 
You really think this is a good analogy? An advertisement inconveniences nobody, besides the political opposition.

That depends on your point of view. I believe that the ability of people to sway the democratic process using money that could result in the election of a government that benefits them over other people can very well be an inconvenience. If a government is elected because contributors paid tens of millions on an advertising campaign and as a result that government lowers taxes on x group of people or raises them on y or whatever, that could have a profound effect. To me it is a more convoluted way of inconviencing people with speech than shouting through a window, but far more potentially damaging and not a freedom that really needs to be protected in order for citizens of a society to express their opinions in a balanced way.
 
If you're not allowed to set up a massive amplification system and use it to scream obscenities in through the window of an orphanage at 4am, then your speech is restricted.
Somebody else already posted this link but I think it needs to be posted again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox_v._New_Hampshire
That is why restricting camping in a public park is in no way an infringement on peaceful assembly. Loud rock music is protected speech, but that does not mean anytime anywhere.
 
If you're not allowed to set up a massive amplification system and use it to scream obscenities in through the window of an orphanage at 4am, then your speech is restricted.

Yes it is. But I'm afraid all your example illustrates is your own ignorance of constitutional law. What you refer to is a content-neutral restriction. As such, it must meet a much lower threshold for restrictions than non-content-neutral restrictions. And on top of that, the extent of the restriction is much, much, MUCH lower than what we're discussing here. It does not prevent you from conveying whatever message you have to whomever you want to convey it to. So the fact that such a restriction is constitutional, while the non-content-neutral restriction specifically on political speech (the kind of speech which deserves the MOST protection) which DOES prevent people from getting their message out to the public is unconstitutional.

Is it worth discussing when total freedom of speech might not be the best possible option, and instead just having freedom of speech that doesn't harm other people?

What qualifies as harm? Who gets to decide what is harmful and what is not harmful? Would you dare to empower anyone to make that decision in regards to political speech?

Why on earth do you think that it would be safe to cede such vast power to any authority?

If you agree that sometimes the dissemination of information can be restricted

There is already a vast body of law dealing with precisely this question.

we can discuss whether or not allowing very rich people to get their opinions much more widely heard than ordinary people during election campaigns is something that constitutes harm to other people.

That isn't what Citizens United decided. And the law prior to the decision did not prevent that either.

Yes, it is. Before considering the citizens united case, just imagine two countries. In one country, you have to have a huge amount of financial backing to stand a chance of becoming a politician. In the other country, you don't. Quite clearly the barrier to entry is lower in the country where you don't need the financial backing.

No, that's not clear at all. You have described one aspect, and one aspect alone. You haven't specified what else is in play. What about the backing of media organizations? Hell, what about the simple willingness of media to cover (or not cover) your campaign? The fact is, the media will never be fair in how much coverage it gives, and without coverage or the ability to finance advertising (which you've ruled out), a candidate is dead in the water. Hell, you can't even objectively define "fairness", nor is that necessarily even preferable. The media probably shouldn't spend much time covering all the thousands of people who would like to run for president. They don't, and they never will. So whoever gets the media's attention already has an unfair advantage. But who gets the media's attention? Well, quite possibly exactly the same people who currently get financial backing. But even if not, there's no reason to think that this group will be any more "democratic". Hell, they could even be less democratic, because now there's no way to circumvent the media. And if you don't think money influences media, well, you're kidding yourself. You haven't prevented rich people from getting more influence, you've just handed that influence to the rich people who own the media, and locked out everyone else. Just think about the influence Rupert Murdoch would have under your supposedly more democratic system.

As to citizens united, in a system with no restrictions there will be times when ordinary people want to get out a political message (and have the ability to make a film), but they won't be able to do this often enough to counter the people who want to buy political influence or buy an election for a party that offers them a better deal, because they can't afford to.

So the solution to the fact that they can be outspent is to... keep them from getting out their message at all? Sorry, that's no form of improvement.

And as i'm sure you recognise, since being right-wing as you are you're sure to be a fairly staunch believer in financial incentive as a motivating factor (intended as an observation, not an insult), the group of ordinary people will also have less motivation to do as you describe, because they have less to gain.

You don't get it. This wasn't some hypothetical situation. That was exactly what happened to Citizens United. They were trying to do what you claimed they wouldn't have reason to do. But they did. Except that the government stepped in and stopped them, via an unconstitutional restriction on their speech.
 
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