JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[Robrob]

If you want a dialogue, only one question at a time, please.

Sure, go ahead and pick one:

1) Feel free to present any evidence supporting your fantastical claim of "back-up shooters" and "back-up patsies" and "back-up locations!" You can't even prove the primary theory, much less the alternate ones!

2) You'd think the "real" assassin would have been firing from somewhere in the same general LOS as Oswald. If the conspiracy was so elaborate to have back-ups, why didn't it at least use the same LOS?

3) Was the "back-up patsy" also a defector, fluent in Russian and carrying a mail order rifle? Did they invent an entirely separate, just as convoluted conspiracy to set up patsy #2 or was he a "Navy Intelligence Officer" slash High School drop out with multiple convictions as well?

4) How did they stop patsy #2 from shooting and then how did they cover up all their back-up preparations? Certainly would have been embarrassing for there to have been more than one patsy shooting people on that same day!

 

[Robert Prey]

Sure, go ahead and pick one:

1) Feel free to present any evidence supporting your fantastical claim of "back-up shooters" and "back-up patsies" and "back-up locations!" You can't even prove the primary theory, much less the alternate ones!

2) You'd think the "real" assassin would have been firing from somewhere in the same general LOS as Oswald. If the conspiracy was so elaborate to have back-ups, why didn't it at least use the same LOS?

3) Was the "back-up patsy" also a defector, fluent in Russian and carrying a mail order rifle? Did they invent an entirely separate, just as convoluted conspiracy to set up patsy #2 or was he a "Navy Intelligence Officer" slash High School drop out with multiple convictions as well?

4) How did they stop patsy #2 from shooting and then how did they cover up all their back-up preparations? Certainly would have been embarrassing for there to have been more than one patsy shooting people on that same day!

Actually, Dallas and LHO was the backup. The hit was at first to take place in Chicago, then Tampa. Lamar Waldron explains it all for you:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/5/51/Video_waldron_bookpoints_hires.mov

and



http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/db/Video_waldron_multiattempts_hires.mov

and

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/6/6f/Video_waldron_oschic_hires.mov

 

[Tomtomkent]

Actually, Dallas and LHO was the backup. The hit was at first to take place in Chicago, then Tampa. Lamar Waldron explains it all for you:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/db/Video_waldron_multiattempts_hires.mov

So how about supporting the "explanation" with "evidence".

 

[Robert Prey]

the witnesses you discount out of hand prove Oswald was the shooter.I think it is.

And what witnesses would those be??? Surely not the 3 right in back of the Limo, Clint Hill, Dave Powers, Ken O'Donnell. Surely not all of the medical personnel at Parkland and most at Bethesda. Who then??????? The guy who couldn't even ID LhO in a lineup? But even that would not negate conspiracy, only question if LHO even fired a single shot.

 

[Robert Prey]

I suggested many, many pages ago that after posting his "Final Nail" Robert should declare victory, pick up his marbles and move to another part of the playground. It looks like with his last two posts he has done exactly that. I agree with you that people should stop responding to his baiting and pouting. Use the ignore feature if necessary. I didn't intend that the subtitle of this thread, "It Never Ends," to be prophetic.

As long as dedicated Lone Nutters continue to goose-step their allegiance to a lie, the controversy will never end.

 

[Tomtomkent]

And what witnesses would those be??? Surely not the 3 right in back of the Limo, Clint Hill, Dave Powers, Ken O'Donnell. Surely not all of the medical personnel at Parkland and most at Bethesda. Who then??????? The guy who couldn't even ID LhO in a lineup? But even that would not negate conspiracy, only question if LHO even fired a single shot.

The guy who stated he was pretty sure but not conclusively so when it came to seing LHO? Yes, that one, even if you dishonestly portray his testimony.

But actually I was refering to all those you declared to be lying, a white wash, or part of a conspiracy, or were otherwise being forced into testimony with out evidence. The autopsy staff etc.

ETA: The real question is why you insist these statements are evidence of anything when we can see they do not match the material evidence. Or indeed other witnesses. Zapruder describes something entirely different to your narrative, was he mistaken or was there no second shot?

You appear to have the null hypothosis the wrong way around. You are assuming there is a conspiracy until it is proven otherwise, when the null is LHO was the lone gunman until you prove otherwise. Or are you not satisfied with witnesses who saw LHO carrying the package into the building, leaving his palm print on the rifle, then being seen by more witnesses fleeing, shooting Tippit and trying to shoot another cop. Were they all lying or mistaken?

The simple truth is this: We have photos of the motorcade leaving the plaza, and film of the event. The back of JFKs head is in tact. It doesn't matter what any witness claims to have thought they saw. We have material evidence. So why not stop playing "My witness is more reliable than yours" and explain where exactly the material evidence to support you claims are?

Tackle the null.

 

[Tomtomkent]

As long as dedicated Lone Nutters continue to goose-step their allegiance to a lie, the controversy will never end.

I would suggest it will not end as long as people such as yourself claim that a photograph is of one thing while it is of another. Why was the photo you claim to be "of the back of JFKs head" actually of the exit wound on the top of his head?

Why did you crop the "death stare" photo to remove said exit wound?

Why do the Parkland testimony you claim to be "best evidence" not match the material evidence?

Why do no photographs of JFK leaving the plaza show the exit wound you claim was at the back of his head?

 

[Robert Prey]

The guy who stated he was pretty sure but not conclusively so when it came to seing LHO? Yes, that one, even if you dishonestly portray his testimony.

But actually I was refering to all those you declared to be lying, a white wash, or part of a conspiracy with out evidence.

Name one.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Name one.

Mariana when saying she DID take certain photos.
The entire Autopsy Staff. (And any photo from an autopsy, presumably including those you later submitted).
Dallas PD staff who registered the rifle into evidence.
The staff of the Warren Commission.
Photographic experts "with ties to Am.Int."
The FBI agents who retrieved Oswalds print from the rifle.


Or are you suggesting the posts where you implied they and the evidence they gave was part of a white wash and frame up, was not suggesting they were conspiring to frame Oswald?

 

[Tomtomkent]

So, now it has been proven that the photos Robert claims to show an exit wound to the back of the head show nothing of the sort, would anybody care to provide any material evidence to support the notion that the autopsy was innacurate in any way?

Or does all the physical and material evidence still point to the rifle with Oswalds palm print on the sixth floor being the only rifle to have fired?

 

[Robert Prey]

Mariana when saying she DID take certain photos.
The entire Autopsy Staff. (And any photo from an autopsy, presumably including those you later submitted).
Dallas PD staff who registered the rifle into evidence.
The staff of the Warren Commission.
Photographic experts "with ties to Am.Int."
The FBI agents who retrieved Oswalds print from the rifle.


Or are you suggesting the posts where you implied they and the evidence they gave was part of a white wash and frame up, was not suggesting they were conspiring to frame Oswald?

As usual in your scatter-shot post you have failed to name a single person other than Mariana whom I have only claimed changed her story regarding b/y photos time and again. The point is, you have accused me of accusing witnesses of lying and you haven't named a single one.

 

[Robert Prey]

So, now it has been proven that the photos Robert claims to show an exit wound to the back of the head show nothing of the sort, would anybody care to provide any material evidence to support the notion that the autopsy was innacurate in any way?

Or does all the physical and material evidence still point to the rifle with Oswalds palm print on the sixth floor being the only rifle to have fired?

The only palm print was "discovered" days after it was sent to FBI's Latona who stated there was no print. And the guy who claims to have recovered it refused to swear to it. But this is all old ground and you are sounding like a broken record. But even if there was proof that LHO fired a shot, that does not prove the Lone Nut theory in the face of the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Tomtomkent]

As usual in your scatter-shot post you have failed to name a single person other than Mariana whom I have only claimed changed her story regarding b/y photos time and again. The point is, you have accused me of accusing witnesses of lying and you haven't named a single one.

And yet...

The only palm print was "discovered" days after it was sent to FBI's Latona who stated there was no print. And the guy who claims to have recovered it refused to swear to it. But this is all old ground and you are sounding like a broken record. But even if there was proof that LHO fired a shot, that does not prove the Lone Nut theory in the face of the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Say you aren't retrospectively changing the general term "witness" to "eye witness of as yet undisclosed events" are you?

So... people didn't lie when they claimed to have found the palm print on the rifle, except for when they did.

And just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming the autopsy was based on liars or not?

If not, and those who claimed to have seen the body at Parkland are telling the truth, why does the autopsy reveal differing wounds?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Oh wait, I see what's going on. Robert wants to claim there is a conspiracy, but if he doesn't name a specific claim as to WHO forged the plam print, swapped rifles, faked the autopsy, etc, we can't catch him out?

Ha, so spineless yet self righteous.


Robert, do you have any material evidence to support what you claim the Parkland staff (all 30, no 40, no ALL of them!) saw?
Go on Robert, show us material evidence to support the claim.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I suggested many, many pages ago that after posting his "Final Nail" Robert should declare victory, pick up his marbles and move to another part of the playground. It looks like with his last two posts he has done exactly that. I agree with you that people should stop responding to his baiting and pouting. Use the ignore feature if necessary. I didn't intend that the subtitle of this thread, "It Never Ends," to be prophetic.

I think I'm finished with him. He obviously doesn't know the content of what he posts and can't keep his own looney story straight from one page of the thread to another. He can't keep it straight from one post to the next. That's the problem when they cull their information from so many different looney CT sites that disagree with each other. Every circus has its clown for the crowd to laugh at. Like I said, we need a better quality troll who can at least argue intelligently.

 

[Robert Prey]

Oh wait, I see what's going on. Robert wants to claim there is a conspiracy, but if he doesn't name a specific claim as to WHO forged the plam print, swapped rifles, faked the autopsy, etc, we can't catch him out?

Ha, so spineless yet self righteous.


Robert, do you have any material evidence to support what you claim the Parkland staff (all 30, no 40, no ALL of them!) saw?
Go on Robert, show us material evidence to support the claim.

You're a broken record. Already done that:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12174504/autopsyheadwound.jpg

 

[Robert Prey]

And yet...



Say you aren't retrospectively changing the general term "witness" to "eye witness of as yet undisclosed events" are you?

So... people didn't lie when they claimed to have found the palm print on the rifle, except for when they did.

And just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming the autopsy was based on liars or not?

If not, and those who claimed to have seen the body at Parkland are telling the truth, why does the autopsy reveal differing wounds?

You got to name names, son. But just one at at time.

 

[Tomtomkent]

You got to name names, son. But just one at at time.

Then are you retracting your previous claims as you are unable to identify the individuals at all? Please clarify, are you suggesting the autopsy was NOT a fraud?

Which of the following were you referring to when you claimed the autopsy was part of the conspiracy and was not accurate?

Non-medical personnel from law-enforcement/security:

John J. O'Leary: Secret Service Agent.
William Greer: Secret Service Agent.
Roy Kellerman: Secret Service Agent.
Francis X. O'Neill: FBI Agent
James Sibert: FBI Agent, assisting Francis O'Neill
Medical personnel and assistants (USA = US Army, USN = US Navy, USAF = US Air Force, MC = Medical Corps)

Official autopsy signatories:

Commander J. Thornton Boswell, MC, USN: Chief of Pathology at Naval Medical Center, Bethesda.
Commander James J. Humes, MC, USN: director of the laboratories of the National Medical School, Naval Medical Center, Bethesda. Chief autopsy pathologist for the JFK autopsy. Officially conducted autopsy.
Lieutenant Colonel Pierre A. Finck, MC, USA: Chief of the military environmental pathology division and chief of the wound ballistics pathology branch at Walter Reed Medical Center.
Other medical personnel

John Thomas Stringer, Jr: medical photographer
Floyd Albert Riebe: medical photographer
Paul Kelly O'Connor: laboratory technologist
James Curtis Jenkins: laboratory technologist
Edward F. Reed: X-ray technician
Jerrol F. Custer: X-ray technician
Jan Gail Rudnicki: Dr. Boswell's lab tech assistant on the night of the autopsy
PO James E. Metzler, USN: Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class
James H. Ebersole: Assistant Chief of Radiology
Lieutenant Commander Gregory H. Cross, MC, USN: resident in surgery
CPO Chester H. Boyers, USN: Chief Petty Officer in charge of the pathology division, visited the autopsy room during the final stages to type receipts given by FBI and Secret Service for items obtained
Vice Admiral Edward Kenney, MC, USN: Surgeon General of the U.S. Navy
Dr. George Bakeman, USN
Rear Admiral George Burkley, M.D., MC, USN: the President’s personal physician
Robert Frederick Karnei, M.D.: Bethesda pathologist
Captain David P. Osborne, MC, USN: chief of surgery at Bethesda
Captain Robert O. Canada, commanding officer of Bethesda Naval Hospital
Additional military personnel

Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh, USAF: US military aide to the President on the Dallas trip
Rear Admiral Calvin B. Galloway, USN: Commanding Officer of the U.S. Naval Medical Center, Bethesda
Captain John H. Stover, Jr., USN: Commanding Officer of the U.S. Naval Medical School, Bethesda
Major General Philip C. Wehle, USA: Commanding officer of the U.S. Military District of Washington, D.C., entered to make arrangements for the funeral and lying in state.
2nd Lieutenant Richard A. Lipsey, USA: Jr. aide to General Wehle[21]
1st Lieutenant Samuel A. Bird, USA: Head of the Old Guard.
Others: At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for viewing and burial (this required 3 to 4 hours [1]):

John VanHoesen
Edwin Stroble
Thomas E. Robinson
Joe Hagen

Or, again, ofering you that last out, are you suggesting the autopsy was NOT misinformation and the Parkland witnesses could be wrong?

 

[Robert Prey]

Then are you retracting your previous claims as you are unable to identify the individuals at all? Please clarify, are you suggesting the autopsy was NOT a fraud?

Which of the following were you referring to when you claimed the autopsy was part of the conspiracy and was not accurate?

Non-medical personnel from law-enforcement/security:

John J. O'Leary: Secret Service Agent.
William Greer: Secret Service Agent.
Roy Kellerman: Secret Service Agent.
Francis X. O'Neill: FBI Agent
James Sibert: FBI Agent, assisting Francis O'Neill
Medical personnel and assistants (USA = US Army, USN = US Navy, USAF = US Air Force, MC = Medical Corps)

Official autopsy signatories:

Commander J. Thornton Boswell, MC, USN: Chief of Pathology at Naval Medical Center, Bethesda.
Commander James J. Humes, MC, USN: director of the laboratories of the National Medical School, Naval Medical Center, Bethesda. Chief autopsy pathologist for the JFK autopsy. Officially conducted autopsy.
Lieutenant Colonel Pierre A. Finck, MC, USA: Chief of the military environmental pathology division and chief of the wound ballistics pathology branch at Walter Reed Medical Center.
Other medical personnel

John Thomas Stringer, Jr: medical photographer
Floyd Albert Riebe: medical photographer
Paul Kelly O'Connor: laboratory technologist
James Curtis Jenkins: laboratory technologist
Edward F. Reed: X-ray technician
Jerrol F. Custer: X-ray technician
Jan Gail Rudnicki: Dr. Boswell's lab tech assistant on the night of the autopsy
PO James E. Metzler, USN: Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class
James H. Ebersole: Assistant Chief of Radiology
Lieutenant Commander Gregory H. Cross, MC, USN: resident in surgery
CPO Chester H. Boyers, USN: Chief Petty Officer in charge of the pathology division, visited the autopsy room during the final stages to type receipts given by FBI and Secret Service for items obtained
Vice Admiral Edward Kenney, MC, USN: Surgeon General of the U.S. Navy
Dr. George Bakeman, USN
Rear Admiral George Burkley, M.D., MC, USN: the President’s personal physician
Robert Frederick Karnei, M.D.: Bethesda pathologist
Captain David P. Osborne, MC, USN: chief of surgery at Bethesda
Captain Robert O. Canada, commanding officer of Bethesda Naval Hospital
Additional military personnel

Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh, USAF: US military aide to the President on the Dallas trip
Rear Admiral Calvin B. Galloway, USN: Commanding Officer of the U.S. Naval Medical Center, Bethesda
Captain John H. Stover, Jr., USN: Commanding Officer of the U.S. Naval Medical School, Bethesda
Major General Philip C. Wehle, USA: Commanding officer of the U.S. Military District of Washington, D.C., entered to make arrangements for the funeral and lying in state.
2nd Lieutenant Richard A. Lipsey, USA: Jr. aide to General Wehle[21]
1st Lieutenant Samuel A. Bird, USA: Head of the Old Guard.
Others: At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for viewing and burial (this required 3 to 4 hours [1]):

John VanHoesen
Edwin Stroble
Thomas E. Robinson
Joe Hagen

Or, again, ofering you that last out, are you suggesting the autopsy was NOT misinformation and the Parkland witnesses could be wrong?

One at at time, please.

 

[Tomtomkent]

[NSFW]

You're a broken record. Already done that:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12174504/autopsyheadwound.jpg

You are right... it is a broken record. Do you read these links?
Here it is again folks:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/experts.htm
And in case clicking the link is too much effort for Robert, as it appears to be:

Wanting to show the back of Kennedy's head blown out — and thus push the notion of a Grassy Knoll shooter — they use a close-up autopsy photo of the inside of Kennedy's skull after the brain was removed. By rotating the photo ninety degrees clockwise, they can make it appear that the photo shows a large defect in the back of Kennedy's head. In actuality, Kennedy was photographed from the front, and the photo shows the top if his head blasted out, as shown in this drawing by Dr. Robert Artwohl. Finally, a large and properly-oriented copy of the head photo.

How Robert thinks the image fits:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/rotate.gif

How it actually fits:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/correct.gif

The uncropped version:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.jpg

So, just to ensure we all realise what this means:
That hole is not on the back of JFKs head.

So, as I said originally:

Robert, do you have any material evidence to support what you claim the Parkland staff (all 30, no 40, no ALL of them!) saw?

Or is the answer now "not what the claims suggest"?