Merged So there was melted steel

Without some proof that Bart Voorsanger was only able to make a very brief cursory physical examination of the specimen, on what basis can you possibly argue that your simple photo analysis is a superior analysis?
I'm not suggesting he has not had the opportunity to examine the specimen more closely. I'm suggesting that you are using a cursory statement to represent a conclusion to which there's no indication he's agreed to. This renders your attempt at leveraging his authority useless.
 
But it is not a what if.

It is a this is.

You guys normally love expert opinion.

Except of course, when it disagrees with your Official Story religious beliefs.

MM

Excuse me MM but you keep ignoring me.

People and experts reporting to have seen molten steel and that steel was melted in fires IS NOT ABNORMAL.

Amazing how do you justify ignoring this fact to yourself! :rolleyes:
 
But it is not a what if.

It is a this is.

You guys normally love expert opinion.

Except of course, when it disagrees with your Official Story religious beliefs.

MM

I can't believe you have the guts to actually say this. Exactly how much expert opinion do YOU have to ignore that disagrees with your conspiracy theory religious beliefs?
 
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Yeah. So there was paper?

Are you suggesting the architect was blind?

Who knows at what point paper or anything else became part of that conglomeration?

How do you determine things like texture, brittleness, sheen, precise color, etc. from a photo image?

MM

So the paper got stuck into this meteorite sonetime after it cooled below 451F? It certainly appears embedded in it so would you care to give us a method by which that occurs?

Sorry that you dogmatically adhere to things so obviously wrong yet

Now to the sharp angled metal pieces sticking out. How is it that 'molten' metal resolidifies into sharp angles like that?

Sorry that you dogmatically adhere to things so obviously wrong yet?

How's it coming in explaining how miniscule amounts of unproven thermite dust manages to infiltrate hot underground volumes while air cannot?

Sorry that you dogmatically adhere to things so obviously wrong yet?
 
MM:

[qimg]http://www.mibz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/363782629_97e4832aa4.jpg[/qimg]

This is what you're saying regarding hi-res pics not being good enough....


You're saying that if the woman next to the car says it's a hard-top, she's right based on the fact that she's standing next to it.

In reality, she's wrong. It's a convertible. We all know that.

That's EXACTLY what you're saying about this silly meteorite. That because someone is standing next to it, they're more an authority than us about it being previously molten. He's wrong. There is PAPER in there.

Paper!!!

Why can't truthers just admit they could possibly be wrong?


Where is the car in the picture :D
 
But it is not a what if.

It is a this is.

You guys normally love expert opinion.

Except of course, when it disagrees with your Official Story religious beliefs.

MM
Any experts that disagree with the OS are in the vast, vast minority. Well within the incidence for mental illness, in fact.
 
Again his quibble with my photographic analysis boils down not to the details of the photo or the site visit but bare bones inferiority to which he has no willingness to elaborate on. It's ironic that I'm being called biased in light of the fact that my critic is using a quote containing even less information than what I've been using. This is flatly ridiculous, he doesn't want to do any thinking through his own initiative despite telling others that they should be doing just that, and have been.
 
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"But it is not a what if.

It is a this is.

You guys normally love expert opinion.

Except of course, when it disagrees with your Official Story religious beliefs."
"No, I am asking you a simple question.

If the architect claimed it was a meteorite from outer space, would he also be correct because he's had the thing right in front of him, and has viewed it first hand? Yes No Pick only one.

And we accept an experts opinion when that expert is one in a relevant field, and their work can be verified as accurate.

Now, pick one. Yes or no."
We are talking about a specific architect who has examined a large specimen known to come from the WTC debris pile.

He accepted as fact, and Grizzly Bear has accepted as fact, that the specimen was WTC debris.

With that in mind, there is no credible basis for posing your hypothetical question.

MM
 
We are talking about a specific architect who has examined a large specimen known to come from the WTC debris pile.

He accepted as fact, and Grizzly Bear has accepted as fact, that the specimen was WTC debris.

With that in mind, there is no credible basis for posing your hypothetical question.

MM

I am fully aware, and would certainly agree that it was a debris chunk from the WTC.

I am asking you to simply answer a question and you keep dodging it like a typical truther.

Would you also take him at his word if he claimed it was a meteorite from outer space, because he was able to physically examine such debris?

The answer is, of course, no. Since no evidence supports that conclusion, and the evidence that is available supports the claim that it is compressed debris from the WTC.

But, in typical truther cowardice, you avaid answering a simple question.

And, since your logic agrees that since this architect has examined this piece, and made a conclusion, you're taking it as fact. Fine. Trains brought down the WTC. Since, dozens of people reported that it was like a train coming down, or that they heard sounds like a freight train, then obviously, a freight train plowed through the WTC. Since they were there, and you have only seen pictures, we must logically conclude (using your logic) that trains are in fact responsible for the demise of the WTC.



Do you see the problem with that line of thinking there champ? Yeah, and it was also a train that blew through Moussouri a few months back, since everyone there claimed they heard a train.

But, then again, maybe it was fire, just as the FDNY said. They were there too.

So, which one is right? Is it trains, or fire?

(I'm really just mocking your retarded logic here MM. I hope you've caught on. Please feel free to dodge a little more though. It's fun watching you jump through hoops. You're like a little puppet, and I am the puppetmaster. Dance puppet dance!!! Mwah ha ha !! )
 
"Seeing the real thing rather than a representation of it is always better."
"I agree that photographic evidence can be quite valuable. Especially in lieu of the actual physical evidence being available.

But in this case we have a professional examining the actual physical evidence, so he is not dependent on a photographic representation to draw a conclusion.

What, you appear to be trying to argue, is that if you spend more time scrutinizing a 2-dimensional photographic image, that it will somehow result in a higher quality observation than a professional who is able to scrutinize the actual physical specimen but for somewhat less time than you.

Without some proof that Bart Voorsanger was only able to make a very brief cursory physical examination of the specimen, on what basis can you possibly argue that your simple photo analysis is a superior analysis?

He is in effect, examining a far superior image than you are, and 3-D at that."
"I'm not suggesting he has not had the opportunity to examine the specimen more closely. I'm suggesting that you are using a cursory statement to represent a conclusion to which there's no indication he's agreed to. This renders your attempt at leveraging his authority useless."

So you agree that an actual direct examination of the specimen is always better than attempting an examination using only a representation.

There is nothing hasty about accepting Bart Voorsanger's observation of molten steel.

Molten steel is an unambiguous description made by a professional giving his expert opinion for a major International TV Channel.

He risked serious professional harm and embarrassment to his reputation if he wasn't careful in his assessment of that debris specimen. Especially on such a sensitive subject as 9/11 and the World Trade Center.

Ever try confirming the existence of previously molten steel in a large debris mass through image scrutiny alone?

picture40a.jpg


Oh the rebar and rust are easy enough to see. But some previously molten spots can reveal there nature quite readily just by precisely using a small magnet. There are other direct methods of course, but they are kind of useless to an investigator who only has a 2D photograph to work from.

MM
 
So you agree that an actual direct examination of the specimen is always better than attempting an examination using only a representation.

There is nothing hasty about accepting Bart Voorsanger's observation of molten steel.

Molten steel is an unambiguous description made by a professional giving his expert opinion for a major International TV Channel.

He risked serious professional harm and embarrassment to his reputation if he wasn't careful in his assessment of that debris specimen. Especially on such a sensitive subject as 9/11 and the World Trade Center.

Ever try confirming the existence of previously molten steel in a large debris mass through image scrutiny alone?

[qimg]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6939/picture40a.jpg[/qimg]

Oh the rebar and rust are easy enough to see. But some previously molten spots can reveal there nature quite readily just by precisely using a small magnet. There are other direct methods of course, but they are kind of useless to an investigator who only has a 2D photograph to work from.

MM
I missed the part where any of this matters. Could you briefly explain that?
 
"Excuse me MM but you keep ignoring me.

People and experts reporting to have seen molten steel and that steel was melted in fires IS NOT ABNORMAL.

Amazing how do you justify ignoring this fact to yourself! :rolleyes:"

Yes, there were an amazing number of those reports from the WTC Ground Zero debris site.

With temperatures recorded as high as 2800F and the scientific discovery of nanothermite in the WTC dust, it certainly would not be abnormal to find molten steel.

"First of all, molten metal could indeed have formed in the rubble piles post collapse. KBR SH&E recorded underground temperature ranges "to more than 2,800F" (Professional Safety, May 2002, "SH&E at Ground Zero). So that's no surprise."

The following quotation from the following source: Spadafora, R. “Firefighter and safety and health issues at the World Trade Center Site.” American Journal of Industrial Medicine, 42, no.6 (2002): p532

"Fires burned beneath the rubble for the first 4 months of the operation. Helicopters using thermal imaging cameras revealed underground temperatures ranging from 400 to more than 2,800 deg F." [2800F = 1537c and steel melts at 1500c]

Thank you for the support Edx.

MM
 
"Yeah. So there was paper?

Are you suggesting the architect was blind?

Who knows at what point paper or anything else became part of that conglomeration?

How do you determine things like texture, brittleness, sheen, precise color, etc. from a photo image?"
"So the paper got stuck into this meteorite sonetime after it cooled below 451F? It certainly appears embedded in it so would you care to give us a method by which that occurs?

Sorry that you dogmatically adhere to things so obviously wrong yet

Now to the sharp angled metal pieces sticking out. How is it that 'molten' metal resolidifies into sharp angles like that?"

So you would like me to perform an inferior investigation like I have been accusing Grizzly Bear of doing?

Are you suggesting the architect who had direct access to the debris specimen could not see the paper?

That he should have insisted on scrutinizing a high resolution photo image before he would risk his reputation on the History Channel?

"Seeing the real thing rather than a representation of it is always better."

MM
 
No melted steel in the piece of multiple WTC floors fused together with rebar and energy of collapse.

There is paper from the offices in the crushed sections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swH1WaIMkNc


It would not matter if there was melted steel in the WTC. 911 was done directly by 19 terrorists. It was a low cost steal your kinetic energy weapon event which exploited our culture.
 
"Again his quibble with my photographic analysis boils down not to the details of the photo or the site visit but bare bones inferiority to which he has no willingness to elaborate on. It's ironic that I'm being called biased in light of the fact that my critic is using a quote containing even less information than what I've been using. This is flatly ridiculous, he doesn't want to do any thinking through his own initiative despite telling others that they should be doing just that, and have been."

Not true.

I have looked at the photographic evidence, which is all you can claim to have done.

In addition, I have cited a professional who did a first hand examination of the debris specimen.

He could have described the specimen as a crushed mass containing concrete, structural steel, paper, etc etc

But he determined that it contained previously molten steel and stated so.

You don't like that answer because it contradicts your strong beliefs.

MM
 
So you agree that an actual direct examination of the specimen is always better than attempting an examination using only a representation.
Yet you're persistent in trying to misrepresent a single series of sentences as if it draws the details of the full "superior" examination which you continue to lambast me on.

In the absence of the physical sample I work with what I have, if you have a problem with it, then you need more than a petty misrepresentation and appeal to authority to prove your case. As it stands, your argument remains inferior, because you have nothing to let it stand on. The physical examination you claim Voorsanger to have done in one sentence isn't enough to render analysis done on the photographs invalid. Seriously, get more detail from him if you what to use his authority. His one-liner on the history channel is not a conclusion, much less a risk to his professional title.
 
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