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Congrats, Occupiers -- You ARE the 1%!

Well, yes and no. Views that are far from our own tend to get exaggerated when we describe them. For example, I have no "fellow" commies although I do feel that some aspects of socialism can be used as a check for some of the problems with capitalism.

The anarchists are a completely different matter. They exist and they are nihilists. Nihilism & anarchy are farther removed from my own philosophy than even extreme right-wing conservatism because I am working towards a more cooperative society. In their own way, so are the conservatives. We might differ on technique but the goal is to build.

The anarchists within OWS are incredibly worrisome. I will admit to being frustrated by the passive stance various occupies have taken with them.


Here is the article I linked to which Virus' characteristically dishonest, brute distortions translate into "JihadJane ... wants the system to collapse".

As you can see, it's got nothing to do with nihilism or anarchy (though, personally I see no reason why anarchists within OWS should be a cause for worry. I disagree with your assertion that anarchists are nihilists. They have an unusually positive view of human nature.):

The Collapse Of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary And Positive


It's also reproduced on the author's website

Here are its first paragraphs (emphases reproduced from original):

We are being throttled by the Big Lie: we're told that if the predatory financial system implodes, we'll all be ruined. The opposite is true: the only way to save our economy is to let the corrupt, pathological and flawed financial system implode.

I was recently challenged by a contributor to write something positive, and so I decided to write about the single most positive outcome of the current financial crisis in Europe: the complete collapse of the corrupt, predatory, pathological global banking sector and its dealers, the central banks. Exploring why this is so reveals the insurmountable internal conflicts in our current financial system, and also illuminates the systemic political propaganda which is deployed daily to prop up a parasitic, corrupting, pathologically destructive financial system.

Our first stop is modern finance itself. Modern financial "products" and "instruments" are often highly complex and abstract, but the entire edifice can be distilled down to this: the system is based on the assumption that all risk can be hedged, and the difference between the initial position's yield/gain (i..e. placement of capital at risk for a gain) and the cost of hedging the risk of the wager to zero can be skimmed from the system risk-free.

That is the entire system in a nutshell, and we can immediately see the advantages of this system over traditional Capitalism, where risk can be hedged but never to zero, and the return is correlated to the risk taken on.

In modern finance, high-risk "investments" (wagers) with high returns can be taken on without worry because any and all risk can be hedged to zero, even in super high-risk wagers.

And since even high-risk positions can be seamlessly hedged to zero, then there is no reason not to borrow money to increase the size of your wagers: since you can't lose, then why not? Wagering in risk-free skimming with borrowed or leveraged money is simply rational.

Put these together and we see how a system based on risk-free skimming eventually leverages itself to the point that the slightest disruption can bring down the entire over-leveraged, over-extended system.

Why is this so? Every hedge has a counterparty who is supposed to pay off if the initial wager blows up. A system based on risk-free hedging is ultimately a self-organizing system which maximizes return by increasing bet sizes, leveraging/borrowing to near infinity and hedging every hedge as well as every wager.

This creates long chains of hedges and counterparties. ..


and the concluding paragraphs:

The irony is the propping up of a deeply, intrinsically pathological and destructive financial system is not saving the economy, it's the reason the economy is imploding. The Big Lie technique of propaganda is to reverse the polarity of reality: we are told up is down until we believe it.

We are told that liquidating the overhang of bad debt, leverage and hedges would "destroy the world as we know it." The truth is that keeping the zombie system from expiring and covering up the corruption with propaganda is what's actually destroying the world as we know it.

Thus the collapse of the current financial system of central banks, pathological Wall Street and insolvent banks would be the greatest possible good and the greatest possible positive for the global economy and its participants."

@bookitty

I have enormous respect for your willingness to attempt to engage Virus et al in rational dialogue.
 
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More generally: How will OWS know that they've won?
Women Suffragists stopped protesting once women got the vote.
The Montgomery bus boycott ended when the segregation laws were found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
Anti Vietnam war protests stopped when the war was over.

What are the circumstances under which OWS would consider their demands have been met?
 
More generally: How will OWS know that they've won?
Women Suffragists stopped protesting once women got the vote.
The Montgomery bus boycott ended when the segregation laws were found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
Anti Vietnam war protests stopped when the war was over.

What are the circumstances under which OWS would consider their demands have been met?

Make the financiers accountable for subprime mortgage securities fraud, overturn citizens united, reinstate Glass-Stegall, transparent audits of the Federal Reserve, and/or repeal Bush Era tax cuts.
 
How do you know that?

Because those are the primary OWS/OWS related/OWS supporters talking points of solutions to address economic injustice.

There are of course, so many more. I just touched on the ones that appear to be the most universal.
 
So, actually, you don't know. You think it might be so. Maybe. Unless something else comes up.
Now, one of the things I had heard was primary was student loan forgiveness. I don't know that, of course, but it certainly seems to be an often mentioned desirable end. Or was, a few weeks ago. Maybe it's not, now?
 
Make the financiers accountable for subprime mortgage securities fraud, overturn citizens united, reinstate Glass-Stegall, transparent audits of the Federal Reserve, and/or repeal Bush Era tax cuts.

Hey, now we're getting somewhere. The first one is a bit too vague to be useful; but the others are very specific for a change.

Let's take one. What has OWS done in order to work toward reinstating Glass-Stegall?
 
The current political system has become rigged to serve only the interests of the people with the most money.
This appears to be the basis for a great many political systems over human history. I am trying to think of one that didn't. Got any examples that worked?
Additionally, it is likely that a number of the uncooperative ones will be State-employed provocateurs. It is in the interests of the State machine to provoke as much violence as possible in order to discredit the movement and justify harsher repression.
Which state, Jane? The response to the various occupy events seems to have varied from city to city, and state to state. The response in Oakland CA, for example, wasn't the template for all responses.

What assumptions are you making regarding "the State" in your assertions?
Trust fun kiddies. It's their way of rebelling against daddy.
Sounds like Hillary, 60's, at Yale. Interesting how the worm turns. (IIRC, she seems to have come out with at least some empathy in her remarks on the the O wherever movement ... which makes J Jane's remarks up there comic ... since she's the Secretary of State ...
What's "economic justice"?
Depends upon who you are, and whose ox is gored.
In response to point 5, there was a uk organisation called UK Uncut

Is that Ivor the Engineer's group? :D

EDIT: Oh my goodness, is J Jane a closet Catholic? A bishop, even?

Economic Justice for All!
 
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Don't listen to the tools, just talk to your friend Wikipedia. It's usually a good place to start.

Nit pick:

You linked to "social justice" which isn't "economic justice," which is the question he asked.

See my link in previous post: it's a Popery of the vilest sort! :eek:
 
Ill see your nit and pick you another. At the very top of the wiki page it says, "(Redirected from Economic justice)". IOW, wiki sees the terms as synonymous.

ETA: Darn, WildCat snuck in there. I am responding to the esteemed Darth in #231
 
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Do you even understand what that decison was about?

yes. And really, if you had any interest at all in discussing it, I would. Jumping through hoops to feed your OWS-hate is getting a bit dull. Go find another cherry tree.
 
yes. And really, if you had any interest at all in discussing it, I would. Jumping through hoops to feed your OWS-hate is getting a bit dull. Go find another cherry tree.
I would like to discuss it. Do you have any idea what it was actually about? Because I've found most all of the people who are against it answer this question incorrectly.
 
Hey, now we're getting somewhere. The first one is a bit too vague to be useful; but the others are very specific for a change.

Let's take one. What has OWS done in order to work toward reinstating Glass-Stegall?

In two months? Dear lord, do you have any idea how the world works?

The movement is very young and right now does not have enough power to influence law makers. A little perspective here, there were 9 years between Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights Act. All of the Montgomery actions and boycotts were only able to accomplish one thing - to desegregate the buses. Even that took almost a year.

At this point we have:
Bank Transfer Day (between Sept 29th and Nov 5th, credit unions received 650,000 new customers, more than all of 2010 combined.)
A member of the House Judiciary Committee introduced an amendment to overturn citizen united
A Washington lobbying firm proposing an $850,000 plan to smear OWS

Most importantly, a huge new wave of people, both for and against OWS who have been doing a little more research. That's what a movement starts with. If it turns out that OWS is on to something, if the undue influence of corporations on our government is really have a negative effect on our quality of life, more people will start to demand change.
 
What are the circumstances under which OWS would consider their demands have been met?

Perhaps you should have listened to the popular chant from this past weekend:

"Hell no, we won't go.
Occupy is all we know."


That about sums it up.

It's also interesting that their "Day of Action" wasn't timed to correspond with any milestone events in the financial debacle or the dates of any key legislation. Rather, it commemorated the 2 month, uh, mesiversary of the Occupy movement itself.
 

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