Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[bikerdruid]

You're not paying attention. This is not like the first time this type of situation has had to be dealt with by the police. Police didn't have to "try" things on the fly to try to figure how to handle this. They know that trying to pry people apart is potentially more harmful than spraying them, that's why the standard procedure is to use spray to get them to comply.

yes, i'm sure that in seattle, dorli rainy could be mistaken as a threat and worthy of pepper spraying, just 'cuz...
http://www.smh.com.au/world/outrage...m-spray-at-uni-protesters-20111120-1npav.html

 

[applecorped]

She was asking for it.

 

[Virus]

Fight breaks out over drumming. Man gets assaulted with hammer.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/a-violent-overnight-at-occupy-maine-site_2011-11-19.html


Protester complains of sexism and a culture of fear and paranoia. Can't talk about the rape that happened at another camp. Prominent members of the camp are antisemites. The strong rule the weak.

Within five minutes of starting our meeting, a man from the ‘security team’ asked us what we were doing, criticised us for coming in and trying to change things without having camped there (the irony being that we don’t feel comfortable or safe enough to camp), and was basically very intimidating. He said if someone had concerns they could raise them at a General Assembly. (Incidentally, we couldn’t raise our concerns at the General Assembly that evening since long debates about de-humidifiers were prioritised over talking about making camp less patriarchal.)

It turns out that this man thinks feminism is an evil created by ‘Jewish bankers’. He is also one of the most prominent people at the camp, and people listen to him.

Women do the dishes while men make all the important decisions:

But primarily the problems are that people who criticise anything that the camp is doing are completely shut down; that power is being held by the few; the way physical dominance is being used; and the fact that camp is unsafe. Unfortunately, Occupy Edinburgh has become a study in Foucauldian power dynamics and de-railing. Also, I won’t work with anti-Semites. Simple as. Also – 5% women at a General Asssembly? Women in the kitchen while important meetings are taking place? People feeling so intimidated that they leave? Seriously, **** this noise.

http://beyoungshutup.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/de-occupy-edinburgh/

 

[bikerdruid]

She was asking for it.

troll a little deeper....i'm not taking the bait.

 

[bookitty]

Fight breaks out over drumming. Man gets assaulted with hammer.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/a-violent-overnight-at-occupy-maine-site_2011-11-19.html


Protester complains of sexism and a culture of fear and paranoia. Can't talk about the rape that happened at another camp. Prominent members of the camp are antisemites. The strong rule the weak.



Women do the dishes while men make all the important decisions:



http://beyoungshutup.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/de-occupy-edinburgh/

Cherry-picking evidence on a site that lauds skepticism? Interesting approach.

It also completely misses the point. Occupiers are people. They have the same problems and social issues as people. The serious incidents in occupy camps are a reflection of real world events that get little to no attention.

A vet commits suicide at an occupy and that is horrible. Between 2005 - 2010 veterans committed suicide at the rate of 1 every 36 hours. It is not specific to occupy.

In Oakland, a drug deal near an occupy went bad and a 21 year old man was shot to death. There have been 101 violent deaths in Oakland this year alone. It is not specific to occupy.

A woman was raped by someone she trusted. This story is almost too common to mention. It is not specific to occupy.

At OLA, a homeless man with mental problems became violent and was turned over to the police. There are between 4 - 5,000 homeless in skid row alone. Many of them are mentally ill to the point where they can not get the help they need. This is not specific to occupy.

In your example, a man in power is both misogynistic and anti-Semitic. This is not specific to occupy.

You expect the occupiers to inhabit some heavenly otherworld that is above the common experiences and problems of the society around them. While it's lovely that you give them so much credit, it is a bit naive.

 

[Taarkin]

The strong rule the weak.

I agree; a police officer violently assaulting on nonviolent protesters is a good example of the strong ruling the weak.

You expect the occupiers to inhabit some heavenly otherworld that is above the common experiences and problems of the society around them. While it's lovely that you give them so much credit, it is a bit naive.

If the police were held to the same standard, the protesters would come out looking like saints in comparison.

A woman was raped by someone she trusted. This story is almost too common to mention. It is not specific to occupy.

Hell, since about 1/8th of college aged males admit to being rapists, the occupiers have a stellar record so far

 

[bikerdruid]

Cherry-picking evidence on a site that lauds skepticism? Interesting approach.

It also completely misses the point. Occupiers are people. They have the same problems and social issues as people. The serious incidents in occupy camps are a reflection of real world events that get little to no attention.

A vet commits suicide at an occupy and that is horrible. Between 2005 - 2010 veterans committed suicide at the rate of 1 every 36 hours. It is not specific to occupy.

In Oakland, a drug deal near an occupy went bad and a 21 year old man was shot to death. There have been 101 violent deaths in Oakland this year alone. It is not specific to occupy.

A woman was raped by someone she trusted. This story is almost too common to mention. It is not specific to occupy.

At OLA, a homeless man with mental problems became violent and was turned over to the police. There are between 4 - 5,000 homeless in skid row alone. Many of them are mentally ill to the point where they can not get the help they need. This is not specific to occupy.

In your example, a man in power is both misogynistic and anti-Semitic. This is not specific to occupy.

You expect the occupiers to inhabit some heavenly otherworld that is above the common experiences and problems of the society around them. While it's lovely that you give them so much credit, it is a bit naive.

spot on!

 

[000063]

yes, i'm sure that in seattle, dorli rainy could be mistaken as a threat and worthy of pepper spraying, just 'cuz...
http://www.smh.com.au/world/outrage...m-spray-at-uni-protesters-20111120-1npav.html

The lady in a crowd of protestors who marching through downtown Seattle and refusing to disperse when police asked them too?

What, you wanted the cops to screen the crowd for any little old ladies, gently remove them, then pepper spray the crowd?

Kayode Ola Foster was shot by other Occupiers, yet all you hear about from Occupy Oakland is "Iraqi Vet" Scott Olsen, who was "shot in the head by the police!!1" Except, it seems, was probably struck by a bottle or rock thrown by the other Occupiers, and if anything struck him in the head, it was a tear gas canister. I'm not sure how he could be "unresponsive" and texting at the same time.

OO actually tried to deny that the Foster shooting had anything to do with them, despite the fact that both the victim and the shooter were apparently Occupiers. They also attacked Randy Davis just for recording them, minutes after the shooting. You hear essentially nothing about those incidents. And don't even get me started on the Agent Provocateur nonsense.

I cannot support a movement prone to such bias and intellectual dishonesty, even if they were to decide to suddenly accomplish something and ease up on the sturm und drang.

I also find it hypocritical that you accuse another of cherry-picking after you take a single image of a woman who was with a crowd of protestors, and try to imply the police singled her her for persecution. Given that she's all of four feet and change, they probably never even saw her. I also note that you never answered the question about the appropriate amount of force to separate people.

EDIT: Oh, and here's an unbiased, objective editorial on the police actions at the protests. Totally objective. That's why you can't see a single cop's eyes, and presumably why that collage seems to be taken from someone's Tumblr post.

 

[applecorped]

troll a little deeper....i'm not taking the bait.

too late

 

[bookitty]

The lady in a crowd of protestors who marching through downtown Seattle and refusing to disperse when police asked them too?

What, you wanted the cops to screen the crowd for any little old ladies, gently remove them, then pepper spray the crowd?

Kayode Ola Foster was shot by other Occupiers, yet all you hear about from Occupy Oakland is "Iraqi Vet" Scott Olsen, who was "shot in the head by the police!!1" Except, it seems, was probably struck by a bottle or rock thrown by the other Occupiers, and if anything struck him in the head, it was a tear gas canister. I'm not sure how he could be "unresponsive" and texting at the same time.

OO actually tried to deny that the Foster shooting had anything to do with them, despite the fact that both the victim and the shooter were apparently Occupiers. They also attacked Randy Davis just for recording them, minutes after the shooting. You hear essentially nothing about those incidents. And don't even get me started on the Agent Provocateur nonsense.

I cannot support a movement prone to such bias and intellectual dishonesty, even if they were to decide to suddenly accomplish something and ease up on the sturm und drang.

I also find it hypocritical that you accuse another of cherry-picking after you take a single image of a woman who was with a crowd of protestors, and try to imply the police singled her her for persecution. Given that she's all of four feet and change, they probably never even saw her. I also not that you never answered the question about the appropriate amount of force.

That is a picture of someone using their cellphone to get a picture of Olsen. Olsen is not texting. Here is video of him being carried off, his hands are empty. (eta: perhaps a less biased source of news next time?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lbbWAgBy7E&skipcontrinter=1

The Kayode Ola Foster shooting was a drug deal gone bad. This is sadly common for Oakland. And, as I may have mentioned, the real world follows the occupiers into the camps.

I am the one who pointed out cherry-picking but I am not the one who is using the image of Dorli Rainey. You are starting to lump people with an alternate viewpoint together as one. Please rethink, that way lies madness.

 

[000063]

Interview with one of the pepper spray recipients:



So it would have been okay if they'd been shot, because they were warned about that.

There was an incident at Citibank a while ago where the OWSers showed up, made a big incident, were asked to leave, refused, and then were surprised when the police showed up to arrest them. According to interviews, they were somehow under the impression that they were only trespassing if they were told to leave, and threatened with arrest if they didn't. Of course, no one bothered to spend five minutes Googling. I watched some videos on Youtube, and there was a certain amount of irony in watching the same people who had been insisting they had a right to stay suddenly insisting they had a right to leave to the cops keeping them from leaving.

Of course, this was widely reported as "Cops trap protestors in building", using that creative fact-trimming we see so much these days.

 

[bikerdruid]

here is a brilliant idea to 'occupy wallstreet' from your mailbox.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JlxbKtBkGM&feature=player_embedded

 

[000063]

That is a picture of someone using their cellphone to get a picture of Olsen. Olsen is not texting. Here is video of him being carried off, his hands are empty. (eta: perhaps a less biased source of news next time?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lbbWAgBy7E&skipcontrinter=1

The screenshot seems to be of a video taken some time after the injury, as the blood has dried. Also, if you are taking a photo of someone, you don't point the camera outward.

I won't pretend the website isn't biased. It is. But here's another shot from a wider angle, where Olsen is clearly holding the phone.

The Kayode Ola Foster shooting was a drug deal gone bad. This is sadly common for Oakland. And, as I may have mentioned, the real world follows the occupiers into the camps.

Are you denying that foster was an Occupier, and was living in one of the Occupy camps? At the very least, his death is indicative of a serious safety risk for Occupiers, and someone should be disseminating news of the incident as a caution. They are not. And the reporting of the Scott Olsen incident is pretty much just propaganda from top to bottom, especially since nearly every post or news item not from a mainstream news source headlines it almost identically to "Iraqi Veteran shot in Head" when in fact there is serious question as to whether he was actually hit by a fired projectile, much less one coming from the cops.

I am the one who pointed out cherry-picking but I am not the one who is using the image of Dorli Rainey. You are starting to lump people with an alternate viewpoint together as one. Please rethink, that way lies madness.

I was responding to BikerDruid and, yes, did get the "cherry-picking" post mixed up with his, especially since he responded to it with approval. Sorry.

The Dorli Rainey thing was, I believe, BD's attempt to deflect from a question which arose of appropriate force necessary to separate people, whether he made that attempt consciously or not. What happened to Rainey was irrelevant to that, I think, as I've read nothing about her linking arms with other protestors in the manner which was under discussion. It is a powerful image, I think, but like all power, much not be wielded lightly or abused.

 

[000063]

I agree; a police officer violently assaulting on nonviolent protesters is a good example of the strong ruling the weak.

And if those "weak" outnumber the "strong" by dozens? I mean, they're the 99%, right? The majority?

If the police were held to the same standard, the protesters would come out looking like saints in comparison.

But they are held to an unrealistic standard. They're expected a)not to enforce the law against OWS, b)not to attempt to remove OWS protestors, no matter what laws they break, c)not to use force if they attempt to remove said protestors, and d)expected to protect these selfsame protestors from harm from other members of the public.

Hell, since about 1/8th of college aged males admit to being rapists, the occupiers have a stellar record so far

You are either lying or mistaken, and outright dismissing the experiences of the victims in favor of some nonsensical statistic. Crime rates have risen in cities with Occupy protests, and it doesn't help that most of these protests are opposed to any police presence. Given that the Occupy internal security teams are, by and large, not trained peace officers, it's probably only a matter of time before things escalate out of hand.

 

[Stout]

here is a brilliant idea to 'occupy wallstreet' from your mailbox.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JlxbKtBkGM&feature=player_embedded

meh

They liberated that idea from Abbie Hoffman's Steal This Book. IIRC Hoffman was advocating pasting the business reply mail to a brick, no longer practical with today's letter slit mailboxes.

At least it will give the mail room employees something to talk about on their lunch breaks.

 

[bookitty]

The screenshot seems to be of a video taken some time after the injury, as the blood has dried. Also, if you are taking a photo of someone, you don't point the camera outward.

I won't pretend the website isn't biased. It is. But here's another shot from a wider angle, where Olsen is clearly holding the phone.

Are you denying that foster was an Occupier, and was living in one of the Occupy camps? At the very least, his death is indicative of a serious safety risk for Occupiers, and someone should be disseminating news of the incident as a caution. They are not. And the reporting of the Scott Olsen incident is pretty much just propaganda from top to bottom, especially since nearly every post or news item not from a mainstream news source headlines it almost identically to "Iraqi Veteran shot in Head" when in fact there is serious question as to whether he was actually hit by a fired projectile, much less one coming from the cops.

I was responding to BikerDruid and, yes, did get the "cherry-picking" post mixed up with his, especially since he responded to it with approval. Sorry.

The Dorli Rainey thing was, I believe, BD's attempt to deflect from a question which arose of appropriate force necessary to separate people, whether he made that attempt consciously or not. What happened to Rainey was irrelevant to that, I think, as I've read nothing about her linking arms with other protestors in the manner which was under discussion. It is a powerful image, I think, but like all power, much not be wielded lightly or abused.

Actually, that picture shows him holding a phone and looking at it. There is no way to know what he is doing - texting, calling his mother, looking at pictures that someone wanted him to see, or maybe using the keyboard to communicate because he lost the power of speech when his skull was fractured. Given the circumstances, there is no way of knowing if he is using the phone in a rational manner. (The last time I had a concussion, I insisted on driving myself to the hospital. I don't drive.)

The Oakland situation is far more complex. Yes, the people involved were in the Oakland camp. No, they were not occupiers. They were opportunists. I've seen a lot of this at OLA. It is blocks away from skid row, there are homeless within the camp who are occupying (Working on committees, very involved with the GA, etc) and there are people who are couch-surfing for the free food and rent. Neither OO nor OLA turn away anyone unless they are destructive.

Much has been made about higher crime rates at City Hall in LA. It's a bit silly. Yes, the crime rate is up. Before OLA, there was little crime in that area because it is mostly a business district that closes up fairly early. There were less people there. Yes, some of the crime can be traced to OLA but mostly because of the social issues in the area surrounding OLA that have slightly relocated. These social issues will go back to their usual areas, still unaddressed with OLA is over.

It's very easy to pin these things on the occupies but really, they all stem from the same issues that are plaguing our cities - homelessness, unemployment (especially among the 16 - 22 year old group), drug abuse and untreated mental illness. None of the occupies caused these issues.

 

[000063]

Actually, that picture shows him holding a phone and looking at it. There is no way to know what he is doing - texting, calling his mother, looking at pictures that someone wanted him to see, or maybe using the keyboard to communicate because he lost the power of speech when his skull was fractured. Given the circumstances, there is no way of knowing if he is using the phone in a rational manner. (The last time I had a concussion, I insisted on driving myself to the hospital. I don't drive.)

The claim was that he had brain swelling and was unresponsive. He shouldn't even be awake.

The Oakland situation is far more complex. Yes, the people involved were in the Oakland camp. No, they were not occupiers. They were opportunists. I've seen a lot of this at OLA. It is blocks away from skid row, there are homeless within the camp who are occupying (Working on committees, very involved with the GA, etc) and there are people who are couch-surfing for the free food and rent. Neither OO nor OLA turn away anyone unless they are destructive.

So there's no clear delineation between who is or isn't part of the movement, yet you declare neither of the two people involved were occupiers. That seems rather suspect to me.

Much has been made about higher crime rates at City Hall in LA. It's a bit silly. Yes, the crime rate is up. Before OLA, there was little crime in that area because it is mostly a business district that closes up fairly early. There were less people there. Yes, some of the crime can be traced to OLA but mostly because of the social issues in the area surrounding OLA that have slightly relocated. These social issues will go back to their usual areas, still unaddressed with OLA is over.

I'd think it'd be a concern for the protestors, especially since it directly affects their safety. And how slightly can it have relocated if it apparently wasn't being reported at all before?

It's very easy to pin these things on the occupies but really, they all stem from the same issues that are plaguing our cities - homelessness, unemployment (especially among the 16 - 22 year old group), drug abuse and untreated mental illness. None of the occupies caused these issues.

In general, probably not. But as for the increase in those specific areas, they did. It's remarkably hard to pickpocket an empty street. I've seen little evidence that this is crime that would magically be somewhere else if the Occupiers did not present such a target-rich environment, especially if the perpetrators are "opportunists", as you claim.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

It's very easy to pin these things on the occupies but really, they all stem from the same issues that are plaguing our cities - homelessness, unemployment (especially among the 16 - 22 year old group), drug abuse and untreated mental illness. None of the occupies caused these issues.

I have a question for you. Let's say that the occupiers can't be blamed for any of these societal ills, and I don't disagree with that assertion, with that in mind do you honestly believe that the encampments do not constitute a health and safety hazard?

It seems to me that the encampments are creating little more than a tiny ghetto, bringing drugs and crime with them. I agree that something needs to be done about those problems, in general, yet I don't see why this means we should allow the occupiers to remain firmly seated where they are.

 

[Taarkin]

Eh, I think hospitalizing someone because they were blasted in the face by pepper spray is a bigger health and safety hazard than some dude smoking weed in a tent.

edit: complaining that bigger concentrations of people cause more problems is a complaint against civilization in general.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

If only that's all that was happening.