Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[trusetheeker]

But you said millions.

No! ectoplasm and Yuri Nalyssus said "millions". I was merely replying to their posts.

 

[trusetheeker]

So, in other words, you still have no idea how immune systems nor vaccines work, yet feel that you have enough knowledge on the subject to proclaim what is and isn't good treatment.

Proclaim is a rather strong word. I believe that their is sufficient evidence to justify questioning the pro-vaccine hype and the associated fear campaign that cause parents to submit their children to the ravages of the industry.

 

[Tatyana]

It would seem that this would cut both ways. How good is the claim that vaccination successfully reduced disease if you discount the quality of the records?

We vaccinate and either eliminate a disease (small pox) or significantly reduce the incidence.

People stop immunising their children due to absolutely evil profit seeking scum bags like Andrew Wakefield, and the incidence of disease increases.

 

[trusetheeker]

This has to be trolling. Nobody could actually believe the crap being spouted here.

Hey science denier, go find another forum to troll.

Not trolling by any means. I made what I believe to be a legitimate contribution to the discussion and since then, I've been bombarded with questions or assertions that I've tried to deal with in an appropriate way. Where groundless assertions are sent my way, I feel no compulsion to respond with additionally referenced facts.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

We vaccinate and either eliminate a disease (small pox) or significantly reduce the incidence.

People stop immunising their children due to absolutely evil profit seeking scum bags like Andrew Wakefield, and the incidence of disease increases.

Umm, I'm entirely in agreement with you about the efficacy of vaccines, but can't see how those graphs show it.
The measles one shows an increase in disease when vaccination rates fall below 85%, but then disease rates fall back again even though vaccination rates continue to fall. Even assuming a lag between changing vaccination rates and measles incidence, it still looks like there are other factors involved.
The other graph doesn't even have vaccination rates on it.

 

[trusetheeker]

I see, modern sanitation and hygiene has eliminated much disease yet disease is caused by industrial poisons. You don't see a contradiction here?

Not really. The causes of poor health are numerous and it would be enough to live everyday under severe stress while otherwise enjoying all of the other essentials of health and still suffer in some way.

Stop breathing for just a few minutes and you can build up enough toxic carbon dioxide to kill yourself or choose to die slower by smoking cigarettes, breathing industrial chemicals or waste emissions. Take a chance with vaccines and possibly die the same day or later with any of the various complications that are known to occur but dismissed as too infrequent to bother warning people about.

Almost as an aside, it was obvious to me that Haitians would start suffering from cholera after the earthquake while rescuers sat in meetings trying to decide how much aid each Haitian would be entitled to (about $40 each regardless of need was on the table at one point.) Making food and water provision a priority for all would have been a better start but how can you tell that to professionals getting paid $500-plus a day?

Once cholera broke out, what was their priority? Cholera vaccinations!!!

 

[Tatyana]

I thought everyone was aware of the whooping cough outbreaks in the US right now.

If you really want, I can find better graphs, that people stop immunising and disease increases again and provides evidence of the efficacy of vaccination is the only silver lining to this horrific, anti-scientific, dark age we appear to be entering.

Whooping cough is called pertussis, and a part of the DPT (diptheria, pertussis and tetanus).

To the OP, I would start showing your wife photos of children with the 14 diseases that vaccination prevents.

Logic and evidence doesn't work, you have to appeal to emotion.

 

[trusetheeker]

This Natural Hygiene is sounding more and more like a religion.


BTW: why do you capitalize those words?

To differentiate between the phrase "natural hygiene" and the scientific system of "Natural Hygiene." Too many people seem to be unaware that the word hygiene has more than one meaning and is not just about washing yourself regularly.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Daily Fail, the Whale, and an article stating more GP should be vaccinated is not evidence of anything unless you are on David Icke's forum for retards.

 

[trusetheeker]

Back then, quacks thought disease was caused by evil spirits, whereas these days, they think it's caused by doctors/blood acidity/radio waves/poor chi.

Quacks were medical doctors who treated disease with quicksilver and other spurious treatments. In modern times, it's been plagiarised to mean spurious treatments by anyone other than medical doctors.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I suspect a Reuter's survey is a little more valid than the vague claims in the article Truse cited: Most doctors plan to get flu shots, survey finds

The online survey of 400 doctors showed 95 percent planned to get a flu vaccine this season, and 96 percent said they recommend the vaccine to friends and family. The survey has a 5.8 percent margin of error.

It's taken a while for the medical community to recognize the need and benefit of flu vaccinations. But now health care workers are getting up to date information about flu vaccine and getting vaccinated.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Quacks were medical doctors who treated disease with quicksilver and other spurious treatments. In modern times, it's been plagiarised to mean spurious treatments by anyone other than medical doctors.

Nonsense. A small percentage of medical doctors are still quacks. The vast majority are not, but a medical license is not an absolute indication of competence.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Quackery is a derogatory term used to describe the promotion[1] of unproven or fraudulent medical practices. Random House Dictionary describes a "quack" as a "fraudulent or ignorant pretender to medical skill" or "a person who pretends, professionally or publicly, to have skill, knowledge, or qualifications he or she does not possess; a charlatan."[2]

Which I happen to believe applies to people who think viruses can be ignored through the practice of good hygiene and a specific diet.

 

[Tatyana]

Not really. The causes of poor health are numerous and it would be enough to live everyday under severe stress while otherwise enjoying all of the other essentials of health and still suffer in some way.

Stop breathing for just a few minutes and you can build up enough toxic carbon dioxide to kill yourself or choose to die slower by smoking cigarettes, breathing industrial chemicals or waste emissions. Take a chance with vaccines and possibly die the same day or later with any of the various complications that are known to occur but dismissed as too infrequent to bother warning people about.

Almost as an aside, it was obvious to me that Haitians would start suffering from cholera after the earthquake while rescuers sat in meetings trying to decide how much aid each Haitian would be entitled to (about $40 each regardless of need was on the table at one point.) Making food and water provision a priority for all would have been a better start but how can you tell that to professionals getting paid $500-plus a day?

Once cholera broke out, what was their priority? Cholera vaccinations!!!

What is your point? That they should have started vaccinating sooner?

Do you actually understand how deadly cholera is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholera#Prognosis

If people with cholera are treated quickly and properly, the mortality rate is less than 1%; however, with untreated cholera, the mortality rate rises to 50–60%.[1][33] For certain genetic strains of cholera, such as the one present during the 2010 epidemic in Haiti and the 2004 outbreak in India, death can occur within two hours of the first sign of symptoms

Where does the carbon dioxide come from?


PS. This year I have had DTP, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, rabies, MMR and influenza vaccinations.

The chances of an adverse event from vaccination is rare.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I'd like to remind everyone that the original title of this post was "How do I talk to my anti-vac wife about vaccinations for our children." I think people on both sides of the debate have forgotten this.

 

[trusetheeker]

So, because physicians have been wrong at points in history due to lack of technology, lack of regulation, and lack of understanding (among other things) physicians are now always wrong? Your logic is astoundingly idiotic. Just when I thought your 'how did people survive before medicine' line was stupid...

Back in the good ol' days, they were pulling things out of their asses. Now, you can see exactly what they're using to make their determinations. Every single person on the planet has access to this. You can see the studies, see their methodologies, see the *********** organisms. This wasn't always possible. Do you throw out modern geology because at one time people thought volcanic eruptions were caused by angry gods/spirits? No. Because that's stupid. At one point in time, illness was also thought to be caused by angry gods/spirits, and now we know differently, yet you want to go back to that stone age. No thanks, keep your woo to yourself.

You've got it completely wrong. What I'm saying is that our trust in these people has never been justified and we should still be extremely suspicious of their actions and motives. I'm pulling together a few other bits of woo evidence for you guys to continue to ignore, as I'm sure you'll have heard it all before. Eventually you'll see why I've hitched my horse to an alternative understanding of science.

 

[Anders Lindman]

I suspect a Reuter's survey is a little more valid than the vague claims in the article Truse cited: Most doctors plan to get flu shots, survey findsIt's taken a while for the medical community to recognize the need and benefit of flu vaccinations. But now health care workers are getting up to date information about flu vaccine and getting vaccinated.

A survey is not the same thing as hard data, and especially not when the doctors said that they "planned" to take the flu shot.

Here is another survey (from 2011):

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that everyone be vaccinated, but only about 63 percent of health care workers are, according to a survey published by the CDC in August." -- http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/health/many-health-care-workers-shun-flu-shots#ixzz1eCSo7xUS

 

[trusetheeker]

You missed this earlier, so I'll repost.<P>

Truthseeker, in the early 90s the Hib vaccine was introduced. At the time, around 20,000 children became sick each year in the US. Following the introduction of the vaccine, infection rates all but disappeared (99% effectiveness). What could have possibly changed in the environment to cause these infections to virtually disappear in only a couple of years?

It certainly wasn't improvements in sanitation and hygiene.

Not missed but because it's a big subject, I decided to post a few quick answers before delving into this one deeper. Perhaps they got it right this time but I fear that the real answer is much darker. The bodies inability to mount an acute "disease" means that it cannot detoxify itself efficiently which is just storing up for something worse in the future. If this is the case with Hib, it should be reflected in the stats somewhere. Unfortunately finding the knock-on affect isn't easy but there'll be some sharp individuals on the case already.

 

[trusetheeker]

I see the whole bit about Immanuel Pfeiffer flew right over your head.

His "Natural Health" practices did not protect him.

From what little info was given, he survived whatever he suffered from which was stated by the author as smallpox although the previous paragraph merely said that he fell ill during the week after the visit. For a man his age, good going.

 

[Tatyana]

I would also recommend that the OP's wife read a few of the autobiographies of people who either contracted polio or those who ended up living their life in an iron lung.

There are still a few people who are living in iron lungs due to polio.

I would highly recommend 'Over My Dead Body' by June Opie. She was a young Kiwi girl who was travelling by boat to England in the late 1940s to study, and thinks she contracted polio in Cairo.