Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[tsig]

But you said millions.

Woologic:

One doctor kills hundreds

All doctors are killers therefore thousands of doctors can kill millions.

 

[tsig]

Yes, but generally we refer to it as Natural Hygiene.

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Great! I have no idea whether that evidence has or would stand up against serious scrutiny as I don't know what evidence you're referring to. Please point me in the right direction so that I may be enlightened.



I'm not exactly sure what your point is but I can say that gut flora are a scientifically established fact that is in no way disputed by Natural Hygiene. Although I cannot speak for all hygienists, my understanding is that what science claims to be viruses are actually just dead protein left over from cell destruction which for the most part will be absorbed and recycled by the body. I'm not convinced that we can correctly ascribe to these bits of protein any greater power and it's clear that they have no power over a healthy body as long as they're not injected into the body thereby bypassing our natural defence mechanisms. That power would be the same as any other toxic substance; causing the body to mount a defensive action to contain the toxin and protect the organs and tissues from damage.

---


All of them, naturally. We should no sooner try to defy the laws of our physiology than those of physics. If I take even one step over a cliff, it's clear that I'm endangering my health. The same goes if I take a single breath of poisonous air. Once you know that a single high-fat meal screws up your insides for 1-2 days minimum and a continuous diet of high-fat meals endangers your health, you can choose to do it anyway but cannot expect excellent health in return.

These are the nineteen factor elements for optimal well-being:

This Natural Hygiene is sounding more and more like a religion.


BTW: why do you capitalize those words?

 

[excaza]

This Natural Hygiene is sounding more and more like a religion.


BTW: why do you capitalize those words?

It's not just medicine, it's a Way Of Life^TM

 

[trusetheeker]

Another died of dysentery and a third of malaria/fever. There was another child, who wasn't actually Mary Shelley's (and may have been her step-sister's, or a servants or a foundling) who also died before the age of 2 in the care of foster parents, but I haven't been able to discover the cause of death.

Thanks, Professor. As you probably already know, back then malaria was caused by breathing vapors arising from swamps and marshlands whereas these days it's a parasite that gets transferred by mosquitos. Doctors routinely prescribed quinine for it ignoring the toxic effects of the quinine much as they ignore the toxic effects of modern medicines to make people "healthy?" Of course, I'm sure that no-one ever died of quinine poisoning by a physician.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Back then, quacks thought disease was caused by evil spirits, whereas these days, they think it's caused by doctors/blood acidity/radio waves/poor chi.

 

[excaza]

Thanks, Professor. As you probably already know, back then malaria was caused by breathing vapors arising from swamps and marshlands whereas these days it's a parasite that gets transferred by mosquitos. Doctors routinely prescribed quinine for it ignoring the toxic effects of the quinine much as they ignore the toxic effects of modern medicines to make people "healthy?" Of course, I'm sure that no-one ever died of quinine poisoning by a physician.

So, because physicians have been wrong at points in history due to lack of technology, lack of regulation, and lack of understanding (among other things) physicians are now always wrong? Your logic is astoundingly idiotic. Just when I thought your 'how did people survive before medicine' line was stupid...

Back in the good ol' days, they were pulling things out of their asses. Now, you can see exactly what they're using to make their determinations. Every single person on the planet has access to this. You can see the studies, see their methodologies, see the *********** organisms. This wasn't always possible. Do you throw out modern geology because at one time people thought volcanic eruptions were caused by angry gods/spirits? No. Because that's stupid. At one point in time, illness was also thought to be caused by angry gods/spirits, and now we know differently, yet you want to go back to that stone age. No thanks, keep your woo to yourself.

 

[Tomblvd]

Probably due more to modern sanitation and hygiene notwithstanding all the attempts by modern industries to poison us in 1000 different ways. The oil industries latest fiasco in the Gulf of Mexico is a prime example which could and still might have a global impact.

You missed this earlier, so I'll repost.<P>

Truthseeker, in the early 90s the Hib vaccine was introduced. At the time, around 20,000 children became sick each year in the US. Following the introduction of the vaccine, infection rates all but disappeared (99% effectiveness). What could have possibly changed in the environment to cause these infections to virtually disappear in only a couple of years?

It certainly wasn't improvements in sanitation and hygiene.

 

[Tatyana]

Thanks, Professor. As you probably already know, back then malaria was caused by breathing vapors arising from swamps and marshlands whereas these days it's a parasite that gets transferred by mosquitos. Doctors routinely prescribed quinine for it ignoring the toxic effects of the quinine much as they ignore the toxic effects of modern medicines to make people "healthy?" Of course, I'm sure that no-one ever died of quinine poisoning by a physician.

Doctors do not prescribe quinine.

No offense, but you strike me as one of those new-aged post modern hippy types who was failed by the education system.

I get it, I used to believe in all sorts of hippy crap too. I also wasted a lot of money on buying bull crap.

I have even done the food combining rubbish, although I must admit, I was far more into macrobiotics.

Reality is not any discourse anyone can make up.

I am not sure how you can try and live by natural laws and state live by physiology yet deny something like germ theory and immunisation.

Can you explain to me in a very basic way how the immune system actually works?

 

[trusetheeker]

Yes, there have been those who have fought against vaccines since the first form of variolation started. So what?

It does not mean they are correct. Immanuel Pfeiffer learned the hard way that his ideas would not protect him from smallpox:

Yes, very interesting anecdote but not conclusive as I'm sure you'll admit. However, the source document and another document related to the Boston 1901-1903 epidemic do provide some interesting reading.

Check out this excerpt from
From CDC report: Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 30, 1999 / 48(29);621-629 (but of course read the whole report to make sure you grasp the full context)

The 19th century shift in population from country to city that accompanied industrialization and immigration led to overcrowding in poor housing served by inadequate or nonexistent public water supplies and waste-disposal systems. These conditions resulted in repeated outbreaks of cholera, dysentery, TB, typhoid fever, influenza, yellow fever, and malaria.

By 1900, however, the incidence of many of these diseases had begun to decline because of public health improvements, implementation of which continued into the 20th century. Local, state, and federal efforts to improve sanitation and hygiene reinforced the concept of collective "public health" action (e.g., to prevent infection by providing clean drinking water). By 1900, 40 of the 45 states had established health departments. The first county health departments were established in 1908 (6). From the 1930s through the 1950s, state and local health departments made substantial progress in disease prevention activities, including sewage disposal, water treatment, food safety, organized solid waste disposal, and public education about hygienic practices (e.g., foodhandling and handwashing). Chlorination and other treatments of drinking water began in the early 1900s and became widespread public health practices, further decreasing the incidence of waterborne diseases. The incidence of TB also declined as improvements in housing reduced crowding and TB-control programs were initiated. In 1900, 194 of every 100,000 U.S. residents died from TB; most were residents of urban areas. In 1940 (before the introduction of antibiotic therapy), TB remained a leading cause of death, but the crude death rate had decreased to 46 per 100,000 persons (7).

How about that, TB death rate dropped from 194 per 100,000 to 46 per 100,000 on the strength of cleaning up the living conditions; well before antibiotics and the TB vaccine appeared.

Think what affect improved conditions made on diseases such as smallpox.

 

[RationalVetMed]

Think what affect improved conditions made on diseases such as smallpox.

Yuri

 

[Chris Haynes]

Yes, very interesting anecdote but not conclusive as I'm sure you'll admit. However, the source document and another document related to the Boston 1901-1903 epidemic do provide some interesting reading.

....

I see the whole bit about Immanuel Pfeiffer flew right over your head.

His "Natural Health" practices did not protect him.

 

[Giordano]

Yes, very interesting anecdote but not conclusive as I'm sure you'll admit. However, the source document and another document related to the Boston 1901-1903 epidemic do provide some interesting reading.

Check out this excerpt from
From CDC report: Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 30, 1999 / 48(29);621-629 (but of course read the whole report to make sure you grasp the full context)


How about that, TB death rate dropped from 194 per 100,000 to 46 per 100,000 on the strength of cleaning up the living conditions; well before antibiotics and the TB vaccine appeared.

Think what affect improved conditions made on diseases such as smallpox.

I thought about it: the answer is no effect! Smallpox is extraordinarily contagious and easily passed by direct contact, indirect contact, and by aerosols. Just being on an airplane with an active smallpox case is likely to infect you. You can wash your hands, eat sanitary food, and drink clean water all you wish; you will still likely die of it if you weren't immunized.

 

[Giordano]

How about that, TB death rate dropped from 194 per 100,000 to 46 per 100,000 on the strength of cleaning up the living conditions; well before antibiotics and the TB vaccine appeared.

Yeah- 46 per 100,000 sounds good enough; no need for antibiotics or vaccines to bring it down lower (in fact TB vaccines are not routine in the US).

Things are just great when "only" 46 people per 100,000 die of TB. Damned if I understand why we are still looking for better antibiotics now for drug-resistant strains when the situation is already so rosy simply due to better hygiene. Those health care professionals are really weird, huh?

 

[Tomblvd]

How about that, TB death rate dropped from 194 per 100,000 to 46 per 100,000 on the strength of cleaning up the living conditions; well before antibiotics and the TB vaccine appeared.

Think what affect improved conditions made on diseases such as smallpox.

Anti-vaxxers always get "death rates" confused with "infection rates". In most cases, death rates of ANY disease decrease over time due to various factors not least of which is constantly improving treatments (pioneered by, you know, real doctors).

 

[Belz...]

Thanks, Professor. As you probably already know, back then malaria was tought to be caused by breathing vapors arising from swamps and marshlands whereas these days we understand that it's a parasite that gets transferred by mosquitos.

There. Added the parts that were missing.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Are some vaccines safer than others? Here is one doctor who says he would definitely NOT give the swine flu vaccine to his own kids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpQOnGJ7BFI

"When an epidemic strikes and an effective vaccination becomes available, doctors often urge patients to protect themselves by getting the vaccination; however, not all doctors practice what they preach.

With many physicians unwilling to roll up their sleeves to get vaccinated, questions arise as to whether it is ethical for a doctor to care for vulnerable patients if he or she is not vaccinated." -- http://www.mdnews.com/news/2011_07/national_jul11_taking-a-shot-in-the-arm

"Half of GPs refuse swine flu vaccine over testing fears

Up to half of family doctors do not want to be vaccinated against swine flu.

GPs will be first in the line for the jabs when they become available but many will decline, even though they will be offering the vaccine to their patients." -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html#ixzz1eC28Z3FT

This is not the conspiracy section, but some even say that vaccines are a hoax: http://www.whale.to/b/hoax1.html (I haven't researched it yet myself though.)

 

[Tatyana]

Are some vaccines safer than others? Here is one doctor who says he would definitely NOT give the swine flu vaccine to his own kids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpQOnGJ7BFI

"When an epidemic strikes and an effective vaccination becomes available, doctors often urge patients to protect themselves by getting the vaccination; however, not all doctors practice what they preach.

With many physicians unwilling to roll up their sleeves to get vaccinated, questions arise as to whether it is ethical for a doctor to care for vulnerable patients if he or she is not vaccinated." -- http://www.mdnews.com/news/2011_07/national_jul11_taking-a-shot-in-the-arm

"Half of GPs refuse swine flu vaccine over testing fears

Up to half of family doctors do not want to be vaccinated against swine flu.

GPs will be first in the line for the jabs when they become available but many will decline, even though they will be offering the vaccine to their patients." -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-flu-vaccine-testing-fears.html#ixzz1eC28Z3FT

This is not the conspiracy section, but some even say that vaccines are a hoax: http://www.whale.to/b/hoax1.html (I haven't researched it yet myself though.)

The Daily Fail, the Whale, and an article stating more GP should be vaccinated is not evidence of anything unless you are on David Icke's forum for retards.

 

[Anders Lindman]

The Daily Fail, the Whale, and an article stating more GP should be vaccinated is not evidence of anything unless you are on David Icke's forum for retards.

I know too little about vaccines to comment except that I see that there are different opinions about it. For adults that's less of a problem than for small children since their parents will have to decide for them as the OP says.

 

[trusetheeker]

And some who were initially against inoculation actually changed their minds when they looked at the evidence.

It appears that Ben Franklin was an advocate of vaccination but a little slow to speak out in favor of it. Nothing else in the article indicated anybody changing their mind, that I could see.

You are just demonstrating you do not understand science, history or and have closed your mind to anything that goes against your beliefs. You have not put forth any real evidence, and you will most likely be unable to answer the following questions:

1) What event prompted the creation of the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race? Why was Balto so important to several children?

2) What happened to Roald Dahl's oldest child?

3) What prompted the Whitman Massacre?

4) What caused the rate of measles to plummet 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970 (image file)?

I'm not closed-minded but I am strongly swayed by numerous expert observations and opinions as well as testimonies from people on the inside of the vaccination industry who have come out strongly against the industry and it's government protectors.

I was not aware of items 1-3 above and now that I am, I don't see how they make any difference to the argument. As for item 4, what do we have here? are these the real unadulterated stats or are they adjusted to prove the official position? ("lies, damned lies, and statistics!") Taken as accurate, they still should not provide comfort to anyone because the tradeoff is years of chronic illness instead of a few weeks of acute illness.

 

[trusetheeker]

To be truthful, medical diagnostic and record keeping were not terribly advanced 180 years ago. I am not sure that is understood by trusetheeker. Mozart had six children, and only two survived to adulthood. I'm sure there are no records of the causes.

It would seem that this would cut both ways. How good is the claim that vaccination successfully reduced disease if you discount the quality of the records?