Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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That is absolutely unbelievable.

Well, to be fair, he did say a moment of solidarity for the white house and the guy who is charged with shooting at the white house. You can't really have solidarity with both of those at the same time.

I think he just used really poor wording for what was intended to be an expression of sympathy towards the people who came under fire at the white house and concern for a person who got was mentally unstable enough to fire a gun at the white house.

It seems to be good intentions, but horrible, horrible wording.
 
I guess I missed that memo. Maybe you could "enlighten" me?

Killing in self-defense is not murder, but justifiable homicide.

Killing someone accidentally is not murder, but manslaughter.

Killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield isn't murder, but war.

Even aside from the legal definition, the dictionary definition of the word "murder" has always been more narrow than the word "kill". That, in fact, is why we have a different word for it.
 
I can't imagine why:

Serious crimes more than doubled in the area around Occupy Los Angeles during the first 45 days since the protesters began their encampment, Los Angeles Police Department officials said.

From Oct. 1 to Monday, the LAPD reported 24 arrests for crimes including robbery, theft and aggravated assault.
 
WOW... just WOW! JREF forum has really gone downhill! Incredible! I might as well frequent The Free Republic if I want to hear this kind of talk!

Really, I thought we were skeptics and critical thinkers here? Oh gee, that's right! Discussing politics really has nothing to do with critical thinking... SHUCKS! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's a bit exaggerated, but I empathize completely. Worse, I'm a little frustrated. OWS isn't perfect and there are issues I would love to discuss with neutral freethinkers. Or at least people who are able to set their hostility/bias on hold long enough to actually talk. (type?) Instead of wading through a tidal wave of cherry picking to present their usual well-trod political talking points.

So far, The Central Scrutinizer (yes, Scrut! iknowrite?) has been the only one that offers even a hint of that, probably based on apathy.
 
Killing in self-defense is not murder, but justifiable homicide.

Killing someone accidentally is not murder, but manslaughter.

Killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield isn't murder, but war.

Killing someone because they're protesting is murder.

Saying that you laughed or cheered or drank a beer and raised a glass because someone was killed at Kent State is just plain stupidity.
 
Killing someone because they're protesting is murder.
Yet no one was convicted of murder in the Kent State shootings. You were wrong in claiming that the Kent state shootings were murder, and you failed to recognize that "killing someone is murder. Plain and simple. " is and incorrect statement. Admit it and move on.
 
Killing someone because they're protesting is murder.

That's not why they got killed.

Saying that you laughed or cheered or drank a beer and raised a glass because someone was killed at Kent State is just plain stupidity.

I am not defending MaGZ, in case you hadn't noticed. But that doesn't make the killing murder. You don't need to label it as such in order to think he's a hateful little troll.
 
I've been pretty relentlessly negative in my posts on OWS, and that's not going to change any time soon. But credit where credit is due; this is a terrific stunt:



Interview with the guy behind it here.
 
Timothy Leary gave a speech at my college around 1976, and I happened to ask him afterwards what he thought had ended the student activism of the 1960s, and his response was the Kent State shootings. I wonder if we aren't headed towards something similar with the OWS protestors; whether that's what it will take.

BTW, I think you're wrong calling the National Guardsmen involved murderers. It was certainly a tragic mistake for them to have opened fire.

Funny you should mention Leary since I saw Liddy in the mid-1980s and his view was that it was not student activism that was the threat to peace but racial tensions. The only thing that mobilised American young people in great numbers was conscription. The idea they may be required to serve their country in any capacity was anathema and still is.

The current thousand-strong (maximum) dreadlock-and-cappucino crowds are nowhere near as loud, coherent, dangerous, or focused as either the racially-inspired mobs or the draft-dodger throngs of the late Sixties and early Seventies. They have absolutely nothing to complain about except being asked to move their tents.

Having read Leary and heard Liddy, I think each of them would laugh (or have laughed) contemptuously at the feeble and ineffective occupiers.
 
That's a bit exaggerated, but I empathize completely. Worse, I'm a little frustrated. OWS isn't perfect and there are issues I would love to discuss with neutral freethinkers. Or at least people who are able to set their hostility/bias on hold long enough to actually talk. (type?) Instead of wading through a tidal wave of cherry picking to present their usual well-trod political talking points.

So far, The Central Scrutinizer (yes, Scrut! iknowrite?) has been the only one that offers even a hint of that, probably based on apathy.

Did you miss my carefully crafted post from 28-OCT-2011? I can post the link again if you'd like. I also heartily recommend Douglas Hyde's Dedication and Leadership (which I also posted here before as a how-to for a nascent evangelical movement such as "Occupy").
 
Did you miss my carefully crafted post from 28-OCT-2011? I can post the link again if you'd like. I also heartily recommend Douglas Hyde's Dedication and Leadership (which I also posted here before as a how-to for a nascent evangelical movement such as "Occupy").

Yes, I did miss that. My participation in the forum has been sporadic and limited. Off to search for it. Thank you.
 
I'll try to explain exactly what my issue with OWS is.

1] The slogan is "We are the 99%". This is a direct reference to income and the divergence of income growth directly correlates to the dropping of the marginal tax rate from around 85% to 35%. If they clarified their goal as purely to re-establish that rate to where it was beforehand then at least I'd understand their programme. It would be simple, clear, effective, and comprehensible.

2] The issue of corporate/political corruption is a combination of guilt by association and genuine complaints about specific individuals. These two things have to be separated or nobody with any money to speak of will see OWS as anything except purely anti-corporate and anti-business. If they can do this then the pressure ought to be on the judicial processes and not the legislative processes. Wrong venue, in other words.

3] Many of the ancillary issues (poor economy, sluggish growth, arcane contribution laws, innuendo about some "corporate/political complex", outsourcing, etc) have absolutely nothing to do with the stated 99% per cent goals and are close to crazy talk. A perfect example is Michael Moore's stupid braying about outsourcing being un-American. If you're trying to "fix" income disparity then you can't throw tools out of your economic policy toolbox.

4] I am convinced that these OWS'rs have simply taken the Tea Party boilerplate and tie-dyed it a different colour. They are likely looking for the Democrat versions of Michelle Bachmann to force their way inside. This kind of brazen politicking will doom the hackey-sack players who honestly think they're doing something positive.

5] Finally, of course, I maintain that people who hold a principled position against business and against corporations should be looking longer term because the economy doesn't stay bad forever. This is what I'd said before. If they really are anti-business and think that all corporate/government links should be severed then this has to apply in both the good times and the bad. When Corporation X comes to your town, opens a plant, hires all your formerly out-of-work clowns on stilts and unicyclists, what is going to happen to your "movement"? If it's dependent on the economy (and that's prone to fluctuation) then at least half the time your "movement" will be moribund and you'll have to gear it all back up again about every five to fifteen years. That's wasteful and counter-productive.

Does that help a bit?

Fascinating and well written. Worth taking the risk of answering honestly, instead protectively. Please keep in mind that I am only focusing on what I see as problems, because my positive views are already well known. This does not mean that I am negating any previous view, only that it is complex and I am exploring another side.

1) The 99% - I could fill a book with my feelings about this. My biggest problem is that it focuses on people, not corporations. Sure, to a liberal like myself, the Koch Brothers are an easy symbol. But it's their corporate, not personal power that makes them figureheads. (I also think the psychology of it is wrong. People admire the exceptional, even to some extent the exceptionally bad. Pointing out just how exceptional is only going to make them seem deserving of recognition.)

2) That is the most muddled message. My take? It is not specific individuals who are the problem, it is an environment which allows corporations to be responsible only to their shareholders creating a system of privatized gains and socialized losses. I personally would prefer that it be framed in those terms.

3) Can we please just drop party-lines and come together to muzzle Michael Moore? A nouveau riche loud mouth professing disingenuous empathy with the common man in order to feed his massive narcissism is not my idea of a spokesperson.

Addressing the symptoms is an easy way to explain that there is an illness. No there should not be an exclusive focus on any one symptom. And yet for many people that symptom (unemployment, stagnant wages, loss of equity, insane cost of higher education) is the reason they are protesting. They are being directly affected. Because they are fallible humans, these negative affects have lead to a bit of paranoia or even conspiracy theory-type thinking. Mostly because finance issues & regulation are incredibly complex.

4) Some of the core issues addressed by the tea party share a common root with OWS but you are wrong in thinking that that OWS wants to put forth a candidate. Although many individual people within OWS support specific politicians (Elizabeth Warren, for example) the OWS movement does not want to put a specific face to their movement. It would sort of defeat the purpose.

5) Whether or not the economy recovers, the issue of corporate influence must be addressed. I personally think that we can not have a complete recovery without it. Even if that's not the case, I seriously doubt that more supply-side economics will be the cure. You are also relying on the fallacy that OWS is primarily made up of the unemployed. That is not the case.

I would love to go into this more but I'm in retail and this time of year is crazy-busy. I'll try to drop by on breaks. Please don't take silence as disinterest.
 
2) That is the most muddled message. My take? It is not specific individuals who are the problem, it is an environment which allows corporations to be responsible only to their shareholders creating a system of privatized gains and socialized losses. I personally would prefer that it be framed in those terms.

Corporations only being responsible to their shareholders has nothing to do with socializing losses. You don't socialize losses unless the government steps in with public money (ala GM, Solyndra, Fannie and Freddie, etc). Otherwise, losses stay private, with the shareholders, where they belong.

Perhaps you've confused socialized losses with negative externalities, but they aren't the same thing at all. And negative externalities are not the problem here.

3) Can we please just drop party-lines and come together to muzzle Michael Moore?

I think I can get on board this idea.
 
Sexual deviant busted at Occupy Austin. Pedos and perverts at these camps are becoming so normal they aren't even worth bringing up.

http://www.kvue.com/news/Occupy-Austin-protestor-arrested-for-sex-crime-with-minor-134079303.html


Violent brawl breaks out at Occupy Brisbane:

“[Violence] is not what Occupy Brisbane is about, it's disrespectful behaviour and is not to be tolerated at all,” she said.
“This is about a new way of living, where the only thing that the system does not know how to control is peaceful protest.”

And it would have worked perfectly if it wasn't for those damn splitters.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...rns-violent-20111118-1nmvr.html#ixzz1e5uuYmL6






How a movement presents itself matters. Would you hire someone who turned up for an interview with his shirt untucked, curry-stains down his sleeve, wearing a "**** the system" badge, smelling of alcohol and stale urine and his dick hanging out of his pants?
 
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