Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[PixyMisa]

No offense, but you really have your "head up and locked!" Antibiotics have everything to do with poisoning living organisms with the intent of defeating the nasty bugs that attack us.

Which is not a response to the point.

Antibiotics are just as deadly to individual human cells as they are to individual bacteria

False. Antibiotics are targeted at bacterial cells, which are very distinct from animal cells. They kill the bacteria without killing us. I'm not suggesting you eat antibiotics like candy, but your claim is entirely untrue.

If you were to drink a bottle of bleach, that would promptly cure you of any gastrointestinal disease. But bleach really is as deadly to human cells as it is to bacteria, so it would potentially cure you of life at the same time.

That's why we developed antibiotics.

and when swallowed or injected, they cause the body to mount an aggressive defensive action to protect the body from this invasion.

Nope. Antibiotics kill bacteria.

Because this inhibits or halts altogether the body's attempts at healing whatever else is wrong with it, you often experience the cessation of whatever symptoms were causing the patient concern.

Entirely wrong.

 

[RationalVetMed]

Bacteria survive in the body only because we have a symbiotic relationship with them... Bacteria are the garbage collectors of our system and wherever waste material needs to be broken down for removal, that's where you'll find them.

So: leptospirosis, syphillus, scarlet fever, leprosy, bubonic plague, pyelonephritis, anthrax, bacterial meningitis, diptheria, whooping cough, necrotising fasciitis, Helicobacter pylori infection, perperal fever, Bartonellosis etc... All bacterial diseases, treatable with antibiotics which people can die of (sometimes in large numbers) if untreated and you're saying that bacteria are helpful little scavengers which should be left in peace to do their job...

O...K...

So, what about fungal, mycoplasma and rickettsial infections - are they all just microscopic cleaner-uppers? Is ringworm just nature's way of telling you to exfoliate? What about parasitic infestations - river blindness, guinea-worm; where do they fit in your naive, simplistic, comfortable, complacent western idea of balance and harmony - are we allowed to treat those problems?

What about viruses?.. what was the difference between a virus and a germ again?

Yuri

 

[Kid Eager]

Perhaps you know what these children died of. So far I've only found references to one baby that apparently died of convulsions during the night. No mention of the cause of death or the circumstances surrounding them.

No surprise here that you presume that vaccination would have saved them.

Probably due more to modern sanitation and hygiene notwithstanding all the attempts by modern industries to poison us in 1000 different ways. The oil industries latest fiasco in the Gulf of Mexico is a prime example which could and still might have a global impact.

I suspect that, as a rule, the answer is none. Before man started living in cramped, unhealthy conditions in ghettos, working in sweathouses or swamps, using the waterways as sewers, spraying poisons on fruit and vegetation, obtaining drinking water from lead pipes, breathing factory and vehicle emissions and any of the countless other methods that we've devised to ruin our health, disease would have been a little known experience.

Sure, there would have been bad times such as the supervolcano eruption in Asia about 70,000 years ago when just about all above ground vegetation was killed off. Homo sapiens would have had to survive on whatever could be found while wandering across vast deserts searching for potable water. Anyone who made the mistake of drinking or eating anything contaminated by the poisonous ash would likely have exhibited many of the symptoms that we associate with disease today and died due to the inability to reach sustenance.

Check out the demise of the Fuegians as discovered by Darwin and Fitzroy. In perfect health when found but in short order on the journey back to England, 4 had been vaccinated for smallpox and one died of smallpox shortly after that. (A 75% success rate - very good.)



Not to worry though because before long, the white man's diseases, greed and alcohol had brought the population to extinction.

---


Sorry but I was not suggesting that our species "merely" survived. It is more likely that they thrived as they would have been living in the "garden of Eden" so to speak with fresh fruit and vegetation available year round. We know of one natural disaster where they would have been "thrown out of the garden" and many would have had to learn to live on less choice fare just to survive.

The move from hunter/gatherer to farmer saw another downturn in health:

Biological Changes in Human Populations with Agriculture

- - -
And I'm certainly NOT suggesting eugenics. Heck, I can barely spell the word. Perfect health is the birthright of every living creature and each organism strives for ultimate health. With a species correct diet of wholesome, natural foods as well as a clean and pleasant environment, all of us will achieve our ultimate health. Unfortunately, generations of poor diets, less than optimal environments and the outrageous treatment of patients (especially women) by the medical and other industries have robbed many of us of our highest potential.

The less-resilient of humans will succumb quicker to a toxic environment and lifestyle than those with higher vitality. The answer to keeping them alive and healthy is not injecting them with foreign matter cultured on chicken eggs or monkeys although I've heard that hanging a dead crow by their front door is mighty effective.

So this is one long argument from ignorance in many parts.

welcome to ignore.

 

[RationalVetMed]

Yes, I read that report and wasn't surprised that the Gates family were huge backers of this ingenious program for increasing sales of vaccines to 3rd world countries by using money from various benefactors. The Carnegies and the Rockefellers and many other families used this same ploy to increase their fortunes and control markets while also controlling education systems, etc. Follow the money and then decide who's benefitting whom.

So, when Capsid said "The introduction of a meningitis vaccine is sub saharan Africa has been very successful. The numbers have gone from 5000 deaths last year to none this year" you're not even going to consider this as a success because somebody made some money out of selling medication. You don't think the 5,000 people who might otherwise have died without the vaccine might have regarded this as a benefit for them as well?

How is a large corporation making money from making medicines any different to your chums who make money from 'natural sanitation' or whatever it's called (apart from the fact that real medicines actually work of course)?

Yuri

 

[Capsid]

Before man started living in cramped, unhealthy conditions in ghettos, working in sweathouses or swamps, using the waterways as sewers, spraying poisons on fruit and vegetation, obtaining drinking water from lead pipes, breathing factory and vehicle emissions and any of the countless other methods that we've devised to ruin our health, disease would have been a little known experience

And yet polio was evident even in ancient Egypt.

 

[Rolfe]

1) What event prompted the creation of the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race?

I'd forgotten about that! More material for my re-vamped lecture!

Rolfe.

 

[trusetheeker]

If they were killing millions, wouldn't somebody notice?

Thanks Tatyana for those explanations. They were excellent!

Harold Shipman intentionally killed hundreds before anybody noticed. An honest doctor can kill as many as they like as long as they follow approved guidelines. How often do we find that "the operation was successful but the patient died?"

 

[trusetheeker]

Knowledge changes. As we learn how things work, we often find we were wrong in the past, and have to change how we think.

That's how literally everything works. There is nothing we understand perfectly, and there simply can't be. If you try to claim we do, you are just wrong.

Absolutely. Unfortunately history is replete with examples of the medical industry saying "Trust me I know what I'm doing and just ignore the big stack of dead patients I've left behind." Then when the old treatment/vaccine becomes obsolete or illegal, they show no remorse for their previous victims, and again say "Trust me...!"

If a Natural Hygienists has the misfortune of having one patient die on them despite years of poisoning and hacking by the medical industry, they could quickly wind up in prison. Many chronically ill people only seek out alternative treatment when the medical industy has done their worst and then written them off as terminal and at that point, it's often way too late to undue a lifetime of abuse.

 

[Capsid]

Harold Shipman intentionally killed hundreds before anybody noticed. An honest doctor can kill as many as they like as long as they follow approved guidelines. How often do we find that "the operation was successful but the patient died?"

But you said millions.

 

[excaza]

You're right! If my arm's half-severed, I should go to a used-car salesman or an accountant because they're unlikely to try to vaccinate me while I'm there.

Believe me I'd prefer to go to an emergency staffed by Natural Hygienist doctors but because of the monopoly held by the medical industry, they don't exist. They couldn't stand the competition so successfully lobbied the government to outlaw their competitors who were winning in the lifesaving department even if just by the placebo affect.

Conspiracy theories are thataway ->

 

[trusetheeker]

By natural hygiene, do you mean orthopathy, a form of vitalism?

Yes, but generally we refer to it as Natural Hygiene.

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Not all diseases are caused by bacteria and viruses, however, there are some that are, and we have evidence.

Great! I have no idea whether that evidence has or would stand up against serious scrutiny as I don't know what evidence you're referring to. Please point me in the right direction so that I may be enlightened.

How far do you take the claim about bacteria and viruses? What about our gut flora, or that a significant proportion of our DNA is actually viral? How does that fit into natural hygiene?

I'm not exactly sure what your point is but I can say that gut flora are a scientifically established fact that is in no way disputed by Natural Hygiene. Although I cannot speak for all hygienists, my understanding is that what science claims to be viruses are actually just dead protein left over from cell destruction which for the most part will be absorbed and recycled by the body. I'm not convinced that we can correctly ascribe to these bits of protein any greater power and it's clear that they have no power over a healthy body as long as they're not injected into the body thereby bypassing our natural defence mechanisms. That power would be the same as any other toxic substance; causing the body to mount a defensive action to contain the toxin and protect the organs and tissues from damage.

---

The germ theory could also be considered to be a part of the 'ancient texts', as this was first theorised in ancient Hindu texts, and it does dates back further than orthopathy.

What laws of nature are you referring to?

All of them, naturally. We should no sooner try to defy the laws of our physiology than those of physics. If I take even one step over a cliff, it's clear that I'm endangering my health. The same goes if I take a single breath of poisonous air. Once you know that a single high-fat meal screws up your insides for 1-2 days minimum and a continuous diet of high-fat meals endangers your health, you can choose to do it anyway but cannot expect excellent health in return.

These are the nineteen factor elements for optimal well-being:

Pure air
Pure water
Cleanliness—both internal and external
Sleep
Temperature maintenance
Pure wholesome food to which we are biologically adapted
Exercise and activity
Sunshine upon our bodies
Rest and relaxation
Play and recreation
Emotional poise
Security of life and its means
Pleasant environment
Creative, useful work
Self-Mastery
Belonging
Motivation
Expression of the natural instincts
Indulgence of aesthetic senses.

 

[Capsid]

In response to the misguided notion that vaccines don't work, I would refer you to the numerous animal model studies of human disease. Vaccinating animals induces an immune response identical to that observed in humans (production of specific antibodies and T cell response) and when challenged with the virus or bacterium alongside unvaccinated animals only the vaccinated ones resist the infection. Transferring the immune serum of vaccinated animals into naive animals and then challenging them also prevents infection. You can even purify those antibodies and transfer those and prevent infection. You can even immunise humans with flu vaccine and challenge them with live flu virus and prevent infection yet at the same time those that received a placebo vaccine did not resist the challenge.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19368793

But you think that viruses are dead cell proteins. Yet if the nucleic acid sequences of flu, polio, measles are analysed these do not appear in the human genome.

 

[excaza]

I'm not exactly sure what your point is but I can say that gut flora are a scientifically established fact that is in no way disputed by Natural Hygiene. Although I cannot speak for all hygienists, my understanding is that what science claims to be viruses are actually just dead protein left over from cell destruction which for the most part will be absorbed and recycled by the body. I'm not convinced that we can correctly ascribe to these bits of protein any greater power and it's clear that they have no power over a healthy body as long as they're not injected into the body thereby bypassing our natural defence mechanisms. That power would be the same as any other toxic substance; causing the body to mount a defensive action to contain the toxin and protect the organs and tissues from damage.

So, in other words, you still have no idea how immune systems nor vaccines work, yet feel that you have enough knowledge on the subject to proclaim what is and isn't good treatment.

 

[Belz...]

Better yet, don't bad mouth something that you know nothing about.

Not putting nutrients into your body is not a good way to get better.

 

[Belz...]

How did our ancestors ever survive for at least 40,000 years before the invention of modern medicine (by the ancient Greeks.) For that matter, how did dinosaurs rule the planet for millions of years without veterinarians? It boggles the mind!

They made LOTS of babies to compensate for the atrocious mortality rates.

 

[Belz...]

I suspect that, as a rule, the answer is none.

Patently ridiculous. Living things die !

No, they don't.

Prove it.

 

[Belz...]

Perhaps you know what these children died of. So far I've only found references to one baby that apparently died of convulsions during the night. No mention of the cause of death or the circumstances surrounding them.

Yeah that can't possibly have been a disease !

No surprise here that you presume that vaccination would have saved them.

Explain de eradication of smallpox, please.

 

[NewtonTrino]

This has to be trolling. Nobody could actually believe the crap being spouted here.

Hey science denier, go find another forum to troll.

 

[tsig]

Probably due more to modern sanitation and hygiene notwithstanding all the attempts by modern industries to poison us in 1000 different ways. The oil industries latest fiasco in the Gulf of Mexico is a prime example which could and still might have a global impact.

I see, modern sanitation and hygiene has eliminated much disease yet disease is caused by industrial poisons. You don't see a contradiction here?

 

[RationalVetMed]

my understanding is that what science claims to be viruses are actually just dead protein left over from cell destruction which for the most part will be absorbed and recycled by the body. I'm not convinced that we can correctly ascribe to these bits of protein any greater power and it's clear that they have no power over a healthy body as long as they're not injected into the body thereby bypassing our natural defence mechanisms.

Yuri