Merged Has this structural engineer been debunked? / Astaneh-Asl "melting of girders"

CuriousAsCouldBe said:
But isn't Astaneh one of the skeptic's "oracles"?

He states:

-that he saw melting steel girders
-that steel of WTC ie the crime scene evidence was removed and recycled before a proper investigation could be conducted into the steel.
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No and no.
 
What is it with truthers claiming people support their position when they don't?
 
-that steel of WTC ie the crime scene evidence was removed and recycled before a proper investigation could be conducted into the steel.
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"Recycled" like you debunked claim?
 
CuriousAsCouldBe said:
But isn't Astaneh one of the skeptic's "oracles"?

He states:

-that he saw melting steel girders
-that steel of WTC ie the crime scene evidence was removed and recycled before a proper investigation could be conducted into the steel.
Click to expand...


How is being even sillier than the OP going to benefit you and your agenda?
 
CuriousAsCouldBe said:
But isn't Astaneh one of the skeptic's "oracles"?

He states:

[that he saw melting steel girders
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Lots of people say they see melting, melted steel/steel beams/steel girders in numerous other fires. Therefore is 100% totally unremarkable that we should find people saying that on 911 as well.

-that steel of WTC ie the crime scene evidence was removed and recycled before a proper investigation could be conducted into the steel.
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Interesting that he said they did a good job under the circumstances and inspected the steel himself, something truthers claim couldnt have happened because obviously it was all removed and destroyed before anyone could look at it...
 
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CuriousAsCouldBe said:
But isn't Astaneh one of the skeptic's "oracles"?

He states:

-that he saw melting steel girders
-that steel of WTC ie the crime scene evidence was removed and recycled before a proper investigation could be conducted into the steel.
Click to expand...

One would need some REALLY big baggies for that evidence.
 
Marokkaan said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syXpA6B85Ek


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NotMelted.jpg


Who is this, investigating WTC steel? 911 truth said it was all shipped off and melted.
Evidence being investigated.

Why do you post nonsense with no support, unable to defend your failed claims.
 
Another repeated claim is that noted structural engineer Dr. Astaneh of the University of California at Berkeley, one of the first examiners of structural debris from the World Trade Center, saw structural steel that had “melted” or “vaporized,” allegedly only possible through extraordinary means that would support a conspiracy theory. In reality, both claims refer to much lower temperature processes consistent with ordinary burning, and Dr. Astaneh has gone on record stating that the Truth Movement claims are utter nonsense. Nonetheless, this claim resurfaces every few months, like clockwork. Only a specific word matters to the Truth Movement, not the actual meaning.
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From my latest paper, pages 41-42.
 
CACB,

CuriousAsCouldBe said:
But isn't Astaneh one of the skeptic's "oracles"?
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There are no oracles in my business.

He's a first rate structural engineer.

And what does he think about the truthers?

Here is his written response, found here, to Chris Bollyn, noted truther & anti-semite.

Bollyn said:
Astaneh wanted to know what I thought had caused the collapse of the Twin Towers. When I told him that I thought the towers had been demolished with explosives including Thermite and a nano-composite of thermite, he began to attack me saying that I was wasting my time and hurting the feelings of the victims' relatives. When I asked him about Dr. Steven E. Jones' discovery of chips of nano-thermite in the dust of the towers, Astaneh dismissed it, saying that Jones is not an engineer.

Astaneh then responded to my email request:

Astaneh-Asl said:
Dear Mr. Bollyn: As I clearly stated in our phone conversation a few minutes ago, I am very disturbed by the people such as yourself , who are part of this "Conspiracy theorist" regarding World Trade Center collapse. These people have used my name and research results in totally incorrect way , and in completely opposite way of what the research results had indicated. By doing so, you and all others have implied that our research somehow support your totally incorrect theories. 

I hereby officially notify you in writing that if you use my name or the results of our research in any publication implying that the data that we have collected on the WTC somehow supports or provides you with evidence in support of your totally base less conspiracy theories, I reserve the right to take any legal action necessary to protect my reputation as well as integrity of my research. 

Let me state again that after 6 years of studying the collapse of World Trade Center, I have not found any evidence to support any of the claims of "conspiracy theorists".
In my opinion, and based on scientific facts, the only cause of collapse was the structural and fire damage to the towers that had many unusual features and were not designed according to the buildings codes, standards and the practice.

A. Astaneh, Professor
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Tell me again, CACB, how this Structural Engineer supports the idiotic theories of the Truth Movement.

Please explain to me why you guys believe that quote-mining competent people, while attempting to hide their contempt for your idiotic conclusions, is a rational strategy for convincing anyone of anything.

CuriousAsCouldBe said:
He states:

-that he saw melting steel girders
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He did not see melted steel. He saw some corroded steel.
He has said that he saw melted steel. He was wrong. Or, more likely, quoted out of context.

CuriousAsCouldBe said:
-that steel of WTC ie the crime scene evidence was removed and recycled before a proper investigation could be conducted into the steel.
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Here is an excerpt from his paper entitled "World Trade Center Post-Disaster Reconnaisance and Perishable Structural Engineering Data Collection"

Astaneh-Asl said:
Abstract
The paper discusses the results of a field reconnaissance, investigation and analysis of the collapse of the World Trade Center conducted by the author since September 11, 2002 terrorist attack. The investigation included: (a) field studies of the collapsed World Trade Center, (b) collection of data on design and construction of the towers, (c) collection of material including steel for further testing and analysis, and (d) formulating a collapse scenario that fit the evidence. The studies indicated that in the opinion of the author, the main cause of the loss of so many lives was insufficiency of fireproofing and lack of egress routes. The insufficient fire-proofing eventually leading to collapse of the towers and lack of egress routes resulting in so many people trapped in the floors above the impact area and not being able to escape in time and before perishing in the collapse of towers.

[That is the abstract in its entirety. -tk]

[pg 9]
At the time, the City government was not permitting researchers to conduct research at Ground Zero. For some researchers, entering ground Zero and collection of data from Ground Zero was essential. In my case, being interested in structural steel, not being able to work at Ground Zero was not a major hinderence. For the remainder of the investigation, I conducted inspections and investigation of the collapsed structure either near Ground Zero where the steel brought out of Ground Zero was temporarily kept or later at recycling plant in New Jersey where the steel from the WTC was delivered for recycling.
…

The first part of investigation involved inspection of steel being removed from ground zero. Most of this steel was from Building 7 of the World Trade Center. Building 7, a 47-story steel structure, caught fire apparently after being hit by the falling debris from the towers and was burning for more than seven hours before collapsing in the afternoon of September 11. Figure 10 shows an example of steel removed from the site of the collapsed Building 7. The inspection of steel indicated that there was very intense fire inside the building.
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Yeah, sure. No steel was inspected...


tk
 
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"In reality, both claims refer to much lower temperature processes consistent with ordinary burning, and Dr. Astaneh has gone on record stating that the Truth Movement claims are utter nonsense."
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Ok but he saw "melting of girders" did he not? These were his own words.

Can you please explain to me the "much lower temperature processes consistent with ordinary burning" that were capable of "melting" "girders"? "Weakening" and "melting" are two different things are they not?

It should be noted Dr. Astaneh also agrees with the truth movement that the "crimes scene evidence" steel should not have been removed and recycled and should have been examined and investigated.

Do you disagree with Dr. Astaneh on this point?
 
@tfk

But, as the clip illustrated, he clearly feels the WTC steel was "crime scene evidence" and should have been further investigated and examined and not shipped off and recycled. Did he not?

He did not see melted steel. He saw some corroded steel.
He has said that he saw melted steel. He was wrong. Or, more likely, quoted out of context.
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In the clip, he clearly states he saw the "melting of girders". Last I heard, girders are made of steel.
 
CuriousAsCouldBe said:
@tfk

But, as the clip illustrated, he clearly feels the WTC steel was "crime scene evidence" and should have been further investigated and examined and not shipped off and recycled. Did he not?



In the clip, he clearly states he saw the "melting of girders". Last I heard, girders are made of steel.
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He has already answered the spin doctor games you and your cult are trying to play.

Clearly the guy has also stated:

Dear Mr. Bollyn: As I clearly stated in our phone conversation a few minutes ago, I am very disturbed by the people such as yourself , who are part of this "Conspiracy theorist" regarding World Trade Center collapse. These people have used my name and research results in totally incorrect way , and in completely opposite way of what the research results had indicated. By doing so, you and all others have implied that our research somehow support your totally incorrect theories. 

I hereby officially notify you in writing that if you use my name or the results of our research in any publication implying that the data that we have collected on the WTC somehow supports or provides you with evidence in support of your totally base less conspiracy theories, I reserve the right to take any legal action necessary to protect my reputation as well as integrity of my research. 

Let me state again that after 6 years of studying the collapse of World Trade Center, I have not found any evidence to support any of the claims of "conspiracy theorists".
In my opinion, and based on scientific facts, the only cause of collapse was the structural and fire damage to the towers that had many unusual features and were not designed according to the buildings codes, standards and the practice.

A. Astaneh, Professor
Click to expand...

So make up your mind, do you want us to listen to what this guy says and take him at his word or not?

Face it, you are caught playing dishonest games... why continue?
 
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CuriousAsCouldBe said:
Ok but he saw "melting of girders" did he not? These were his own words.

Can you please explain to me the "much lower temperature processes consistent with ordinary burning" that were capable of "melting" "girders"? "Weakening" and "melting" are two different things are they not?
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Yes.
The process was "eutectic corrosion" wherein compounds such as sulfuric acid diffused into microscopic granules on the surface of steel, lowering its melting point. This is called "intergranular melting" and happens at temperatures below 1000°C, well within the reach of the most ordinary organic fires. Since this happens at a microscopic scale, the process is very slow and it may take weeks for a particular piece of steel girder to "melt" (actually corrode) half way.
This mechanism is very well understood by metallurgists, and any competent person knows it is not indicative of unusually high temperatures, and certainly not consistent with temperatures high enough to melt steel. If this melted girder" that Astaneh found had melted from temperatures above the melting point of structural steel (>1500°C), it would not have exhibited the kind of microscoopic structure revealed in a detailed study of the very same specimem by Barnett, Biederman and Sisson of WPI for FEMA.

In summary: The "melted girder" that Astaneh found is evidence for ordinary fire temps in the debris pile and against extraordinary fire temps.

It is FALSE to use that quote by Astaneh out of context and spin it to imply some strange nefarious whatever. You have fallen, hook, line and sinker, for LIES, courtesy of the so-called "Truth" Movement.

CuriousAsCouldBe said:
It should be noted Dr. Astaneh also agrees with the truth movement that the "crimes scene evidence" steel should not have been removed and recycled and should have been examined and investigated.

Do you disagree with Dr. Astaneh on this point?
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Do you agree that Astaneh HAS examined and investigated the "crimes scene evidence" steel before it was removed and recycled?

Do you agree that Dr. Astaneh has concluded, based on his actual examination and investigation the "crimes scene evidence" steel and ALL the available evidence, that "the only cause of collapse was the structural and fire damage to the towers"?

Do you agree that Dr. Astaneh is on record stating "you and all others have implied that our research somehow support your totally incorrect theories. 

I hereby officially notify you in writing that if you use my name or the results of our research in any publication implying that the data that we have collected on the WTC somehow supports or provides you with evidence in support of your totally base less conspiracy theories, I reserve the right to take any legal action necessary to protect my reputation as well as integrity of my research." - in other words, that Dr. Astaneh considers you ilk, CuriousAsCouldBe, to be liars, frauds and a general nuisance for making exactly the kinds of claims and implications about Astaneh's words that you do, CuriousAsCouldBe?
 
What the hell Truthers? I have a whole thread where I concede there was molten steel and you have all failed to demonstrate the applicability of it.

Please go here and take the Travis Challenge before wasting your time with this.

CuriousAsCouldBe said:
@tfk

But, as the clip illustrated, he clearly feels the WTC steel was "crime scene evidence" and should have been further investigated and examined and not shipped off and recycled. Did he not?
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If he said that he'd be wrong. Rescue of survivors and recovery of human remains was the highest priority.
 
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