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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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I'll repeat the stat from the Arthur C. Clarke book on space for you Jay....

Right. That means your scenario where of-the-shelf Apollo spacecraft were used to carry out unmanned military missions is expressly disallowed.



No, only your theory. The real Apollo is still intact because you forgot about the SCS.

I'll repeat the stat from the Arthur C. Clarke book on space for you Jay....

In Arthur C. Clarke's excellent book, THE PROMISE OF SPACE, Clarke informs us that by 1965, the year of the last Ranger Mission, Ranger 9, NASA was able to track that craft within FEET from 200,000 miles away, and its velocity could be measured with equal accuracy.

Ranger crash landed, intentionally so, only 3 miles from its targeted lunar landing site.

That was 1965 Jay, pretty amazing no? The Surveyor craft then had the audacity to soft land. All I can say is, with performance like that, and simple straight forward military goals, who needs astronauts? I mean why use them? And they didn't!!!

So it's clear to most Jay that Apollo 11 was simply more of the same. A bigger probe with a Neil Armstrong voice over. Imagine all the rehearsals....... Really Jay, imagine.....

Pretty slick, if they hadn't fleeced so many Americans by having the nerve to tax them to pull off these jive unmanned missions, I'd almost say it was cool.
 
Jay, use a little common sense, Lightening?.....

The most effective means of lightning protection is the Faraday-cage method of constructing the fuselage as an electrically-integral structure and isolating it from sensitive components by ensuring that the outer skin and secondary structure are a more attractive conductor, and then electrically insulating and/or limiting the conductive pathways to the inner structure.

The Apollo CM was constructed in just such a fashion, but ironically enough more for thermal control reasons than electrical protection. But when dealing with metals, thermal conduction and electrical conduction are surprisingly linked through a phenomenon having to do with their electron shell configuration. The bottom line is that by engineering the CM to have good thermal isolation zones, it accidentally also had good electrical isolation zones. The methods used to thermally isolate the outer skin from the rest of the spacecraft and the equipment work well to insulate it electrically too -- chiefly plastic standoffs and felt washers.

That's why the only lasting damage was to the exterior of the spacecraft, through which the stroke traveled -- just like occurs in aircraft.

Keep in mind also that most of the Apollo equipment had been conservatively engineered for the GSE maximum voltage of 60 VDC although its operating voltages were 14 or 28 VDC. Stated another way, the electrical systems of the entire spacecraft were over-engineered lest they accidentally be subject to excess voltage during ground servicing. Unlike most airplanes, the Apollo CSM had 2X to 4X voltage margins on all equipment.

The reader should nevertheless wonder why the fuel cell disconnect was tripped. Energizing the outer skin will induce transient currents in wiring nearby. This is an electrostatic effect, independent of any conduction-path mitigation in the structural design. The fuel cells have what amounts to a GFCI on them -- a very sensitive circuit-breaker that is highly attuned to the rate of change in current on the bus. That is, if the current rises too sharply on the battery relay bus, it acts quickly to isolate the fuel cells from the bus. This is the same principle by which the GFCI interrupts the circuit when the toaster falls into the bathtub, before any substantial current is allowed to flow to ground through your bathing grandmother.

A lightning stroke is too rapid a current increase, so the bus protected itself before the current exceeded any nominal operating parameters. That's why, once the bus isolation breakers were reset, there was no lasting damage. The other observed failures were caused by the "brownout" (main bus under volt) arising from the batteries' (the only power source left connected to the bus) inability to power the entire CSM at full power. They normally power only certain critical systems in the CM for reentry.

Therefore we have seen in detail that Apollo spacecraft are protected both from voltage spikes and current spikes.

"The Apollo spacecraft design has an inherent degree of protection from the effects of lightning. This protection is considered sufficient without hardware modifications to accept a low risk which can be provided by certain addi- tional launch restrictions." (Marshall Space Flight Center, et al.. Analysis of Apollo 12 lightning incident, 1970. p. 50)​

Patrick1000's insistence that the Apollo spacecraft was not designed for lightning strikes is patently false. He is grasping at straws. Further, the design details of how that protection occurs have now been presented. Patrick will naturally fail to address them because he lacks engineering expertise and cannot argue any of his claims according to engineering merit. He will simply restate his original wrong belief using different words.

The Apollo system design called for the ability to perform a full systems check and full flight validation upon reaching parking orbit. That is, the need to validate the entire spacecraft system for a lunar mission was not a new requirement realized ad hoc for Apollo 12, it was designed into the system. Why? Because there was no presumption that the spacecraft would survive a boost to orbit without significant, perhaps difficult-to-diagnose damage. An atmospheric launch is a violent event, dominated by acoustic loading that fails even modern spacecraft. Even today, every mission (manned or unmanned) begins its life by breathing a sigh of relief at having reached an interim or parking orbit, and then performing an extensive self-test to see whether the boost caused any critical damage.

Patrick1000's claim that on-orbit testing is insufficient to establish flight readiness is also patently false, expressly precluded in the mission and system design, and likely also arising from his inexpertise in engineering and his unfamiliarity with Apollo system design.

Jay, use a little common sense, Lightening?.....This is about as fake as it gets. Keep in mind Jay, the yo-yos that say, "GO!", they are the perps. Everyone else is duped, including Tom Hanks..... He is not very smart anyway.....
 
Retract my claim?

Indeed. What's your point?



You claim to have read Carrying the Fire. Here Collins says that navigating back to Earth without MSFN was possible. How is it that you failed to consider Collin's claim back when you were trying to say that any loss of contact with MSFN was highly dangerous.

In fact Collins here confirms what I told you then: there were contingencies in place for loss of MSFN.

Kindly retract your claim.



Refuted at length here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7759799#post7759799



Good thing there were three dozen other stars he could use.



No, begging the question. Refuted here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7759799#post7759799



Not to the aerospace and astronomy professions. It only seems so to you after you've wrapped it in several meaningless layers of hysteria and assumption.



Running out of new stuff to make up, eh?



I can't imagine you would know what that feels like. You're acting like a surgeon with an ineptly dismembered corpse on the operating table turning to the anesthetist and saying, "I think that went well."

It's blindingly obvious to all the other readers that you're simply ignoring everything that's said to you. They're saying so. Are you really that oblivious to contrary fact? Or are you simply ignoring what you don't really feel like answering?

Retract my claim? What kind of nonsense is that Jay? If the astronauts in these alleged scenarios were to lose ground contact, then in the simulated missions they would "fly" on their own until ground contact was recovered, if recovered at all.

Nothing to retract Jay, sorry 'bout that.......
 
I'll repeat the stat from the Arthur C. Clarke book on space for you Jay...

Patrick, rather than pointlessly repeating already-demolished claims like this one, please try to engage with the points made in previous replies which clearly and patiently explain why your various claims have no merit.
 
When traveling through cislunar space, around the moon's back side and what not, the star count would vary, assuming any of this were real. There would be times when there would be more stars than one could see from the surface of the earth, and there would be times when the count would be fewer. So the "constellations" would not appear as they do here on earth, not consistently anyway. There would be times wherein any given constellation pattern would become unreadable due to the presence of too many stars, other times unreadable due to there being too few; here a half as many, there a a third as many, next time a fourth as many, not to mention at times a fifth as many, sometimes a jillion stars, sometimes handfuls, and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN! So how do you find/identify/confirm stars if the constellation patterns are not consistently present, complete and recognizable? Answer, you don't find/identify and confirm the stars, and so you most decidedly do not navigate with this now patently bogus and made up joke of a system.

I should believe this why? Why would you expect to see more stars from a spacecraft on the far side of the moon than from a telescope on Earth? Which constellation patterns became "unreadable" by the astronauts? What did these patterns look like from space?

Ranb
 
Reed was deeling with 5 points, these guys 14......

No. They refute Reed's account. For the last 100+ pages you've been saying the positions were greater than 25,000 feet apart. You're spewing so much nonsense you can't even keep your own male bovine excrement straight.

Reed was dealing with 5 points, these guys(maps/geology teams) 14......That said, Lew Wade's account is consistent with Reed's. You are correct in that it is not the exact same thing, I should have used the term "consistent with", not corroborated.

Still, my point stands and stands very very very well.

Also, Eugene Shoemaker, the renown geologist leading the Apollo group "searching" for the Eagle's "simulated" landing site, had "located" the site to within 200 meters of its ultimately determined true position(LAM-2 Map coordinates J .65 / 7.52). He asked the estimated coordinates be passed up to Collins. Why were they not in a timely fashion? It wasn't until just before the simulated lunar launch that these highly accurate coordinates were passes to Collins. Shoemaker quipped, "I guess they did not believe me".
 
I'll repeat the stat from the Arthur C. Clarke book on space for you Jay...

Because repeating is all you know how to do.

I'll simply refer you to where I discuss the tracking at length, using appropriate elements of the applicable sciences instead of your inevitable handwaving.

NASA was able to track that craft within FEET from 200,000 miles away...

Asked and answered.

The Surveyor craft then had the audacity to soft land.

And was the Surveyor's trajectory more like Apollo's? Or was it more like Ranger's?

...and simple straight forward military goals, who needs astronauts?

Your scenario certainly does, because you claim they used off-the-shelf Apollo spacecraft, and you've spent most of this week belaboring the alleged failure of the necessary human element in that system.

For example, you hammer home the point that the spacecraft can't navigate itself, and you lambast Al Worden with your puerile characterizations for his alleged inability to do that manually. But you don't explain how an unmanned CSM/LM stack was somehow able to do what you say was done, under the circumstances you say prevailed.

People have been asking you to reconcile all your most recent claims with your unmanned military mission scenario, but you won't do it. As STS60 correctly notes, you're just making this all up as you go, day by day, caring not one whit whether you remain consistent with anything you've said previously.

So it's clear to most Jay that Apollo 11 was simply more of the same.

Your problem is that you have to invent your own "most."

Judging from their responses in this thread, it's clear to most that you haven't bothered to read and understand why Ranger/Surveyor and Apollo are completely different kinds of tracking problem. It's also clear to them that your theory lacks even internal consistency, much less the prayer of actually being true.
 
Jay, use a little common sense, Lightening?.....This is about as fake as it gets.

Patrick, it appears you don't have any reasoned response to the very thorough explanations presented of how and why the Apollo 12 mission proceded after the lightning strike. Since this thread is already very long indeed, would you please consider avoiding requoting long and detailed posts in their entirety merely to say "Fake" at the end?

Thanks.
 
Jay, use a little common sense

No, thanks. Instead I'll use my engineering degrees and my 20 years' experience building and operating space vehicles, if you don't mind.

Lightening?...This is about as fake as it gets.

As I predicted, simply restating your belief using different words. So tedious.

Keep in mind Jay, the yo-yos that say, "GO!", they are the perps.

I see. So when you want to quote Michael Collins, Al Worden, Frank O'Brien, and all the other people who worked on Apollo and who firmly (by your own admission) dispute your findings, then it's okay. But as soon as any of those sources say something you can't handwave away or lie your way past, then they become "untrustworthy."

Guess what: blatantly double standards don't get written in the history books. They rightly get laughed off the stage of public opinion.

Everyone else is duped...

Nope. It's a good thing that I and many others have the expertise to determine whether those people were lying or not.

So you can try to pretend that the evaluation of the most eminent, recognized engineers in the country really doesn't matter. But you can't make disappear my own explanation for how the CM achieved its inherent protection against lightning.

Sorry, but you've been shot down again. You made the mistake of claiming the CSM was not designed such that it would be protected against lightning. And once again the facts entirely oppose that claim. And so once again you do what you do best -- pretend the facts don't exist.
 
You are welcome to disagree, but no one has debunked Clarke's claim...

Clarke's claim is correct. Your belief that it should apply also to Apollo is not. You are committing the fallacy of hasty generalization. Clarke's examination of the special case of Ranger 9 is not a valid dicto simpliciter for all spacecraft tracking.

I made not one, but two very detailed posts explaining the material difference between tracking Ranger and tracking Apollo. You've given no indication that you've even read it. Everyone else read and understood it, and agrees that it refutes your claim. What's your problem?

We must have a different criteria for what is or is not "debunked".

That is absolutely certain. We're using the criterion that one should actually pay attention the pars destruens.

As I noted in the "jump the shark" threads, there is hardly a thread on this site that you have participated in without egregiously ignoring much of what is said to you in opposition. You simply ignore what you don't want to hear. That's how you manage to believe that you have not been refuted.

Not even sure what yours might be given your claim in this regard.

That one cannot directly compare the tracking methods used for Ranger and Surveyor with those used for Apollo. The properties of the Ranger mission that enabled accurate tracking were absent in Apollo. I have exhaustively discussed those properties.
 
I see your point......

So you've completely missed my point. You cannot judge the truth value of an argument by internal reference to the argument. You must have external knowledge.

1, If and only if Tom goes to the mall, Jane will go meet him.
2. Tom goes to the mall.
3. Thus, Jane met him.

Is it true that Jane met him? We'd have to know if statement 2 was true. The argument gives us no hints. We'd have to go to the mall and gather external information by looking for Tom.





You are completely wrong about every aspect of the workings of the navigation on the Apollo missions. There were multiple systems in place. The primary system for staying on course while out of contact with earth was the inertial system powered by the gyroscope. Also, I don't think any computer "found" any star in the early 1970s. I think the astronaut had to use the sextant and enter the star's location manually.

And this all ignores the main way the Apollo craft navigated - they got constant updates from NASA which had no problem seeing the stars.

I haven\t done the research, but it doesn't even seem to me that anyone should try to navigate while going around the far side of the moon. The last time NASA saw you, they knew your orbit and speed. They'd know just where to look for you to reappear. Why would you fire a rocket and mess with that?Just come out of your radio blackout to a fresh team of geeks ready to tell you where you are and what buttons to press to get back to wherever you\re supposed to be.





But you just said that this astronaut stated there were too many stars. So, some astronauts are lying during their lies but this one has told the truth? Even though this flies in the face of your theory that they were all coached to lie about seeing too few stars?

Your argument lacks logic. Your evidence cannot, by definition, tell us whether your conclusion is true.



ETA: This document appears to my untrained eye to show that no navigational maneuvers were made while the Apollo 15 command module was circling the moon except for preplanned insertions. So there was no need to use the sextant to take star readings while on the far side of the moon.

I see your point Loss Leader. However, my point is that these are special lies. Their motivation is historically unique, and understanding that motive leads to a full elucidation of Apollo's true history, what Apollo was really about, this, as opposed to the history typically proffered for public consumption by the NASA/governmental/military bozos behind the scenes. I'll shall take the liberty of elaborating for you Loss Leader.

When Armstrong says the first time they were able to see constellations was 200,000ish miles away from earth at the time of the corona photographing and eclipse of the sun by the moon, one isn't in a strict sense logically entitled to say, "Armstrong is lying here and therefore Apollo 11 was not a manned mission". From a strictly logical standpoint, one is only entitled to say, "Armstrong is lying".

HOWEVER, lies are motivated. They do not come out of the blue, nor do they come out of the pretended cislunar black as do Armstrong's make believe stars. It is only fair and LOGICAL to ask ourselves why it is that a man so capable, a genius of a pilot if there ever was one, why is it that this great great man, Neil Armstrong, is lying, AND!, so obviously so. As pointed out ad nauseam, these are insanely risky lies, so obvious, so patently bogus are the statements, the motivation and the PAYOFF must be tremendous, over the top, pure gold.

The answer to the REAL $64,000 question is that Armstrong is lying because they did not go to the moon. It is a cover, the lie is, for a point of vulnerability in the narrative. And they did not go to the moon because Apollo served as a manned landing "cover" for a huge military operation. By pretended to land men, they could land equipment which they weren't supposed to be landing on the moon and perhaps float important pieces of military equipment in space(libration/Lagrangian points) and in earth orbit as well.

Worden's "lie" is of a more indirect and complex variety. To be able to fly to the moon in earnest, astronauts must be able to fly a ship independently of ground support, and be able to align the inertial platform under the circumstance of any reasonably anticipated contingency, one such contingency being a circumstance where the platform would need alignment when it is dark, and the "sky" filled with many more stars than one could see from earth. Many more, because the alleged Apollo scopes have apertures of greater dimension than the human pupil when fully dilated, and additionally, there are no atmospheric filtering concerns.

Worden "admits" in the interview that he would not have been able to do this. He could not determine the identity of A SINGLE ONE of the 37 critical navigational stars. HE SAID THIS. HE STATED THIS CLEARLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY. As such, he would not be able to align the alleged Apollo 15 inertial platform under all reasonably anticipated contingencies, and given that, this is not a genuine mission to the moon. A genuine mission to the moon is one in which the CM pilot could align the platform under all reasonably anticipated contingencies.

So it is indeed VERY LOGICAL to ask what Worden's lying is about, his claiming to be on a real moon mission when he cannot possibly be for the reason given. The answer to this very very very logical question, is Worden has been "caught" saying something about a pretended scenario that cannot possibly true were he actually navigating about perilunar space. Were he actually navigating there during a genuine Apollo 15 Mission, he would HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SIGHT STARS AND ALIGN THE PLATFORM AT ANY TIME. He explicitly states he could not do this by virtue of explicitly stating he could not identify stars in dark/non-sun illuminated conditions. We may LOGICALLY conclude with absolute unmitigated metaphysical certainty that Al Worden is not a man who ever navigated about the moon. He is a charlatan if there ever was one. AND! he is a very very very bad liar.

Note Armstrong is the best liar of the bunch, the smartest and most clever, and so is awarded pride of place as the first man to ever pretend to walk on the moon with said fairy tale being fully endorsed by his government. This is the sense in which Armstrong's make believe differs from that of a child. Kids don't "enjoy" real ticker tape parades after they make something like this up. That said about the fake lunar trip with the real parade chaser, I somehow don't believe Armstrong enjoyed those parades as much as I would have when I engaged in such silly pretend games back in kindergarten.
 
What kind of nonsense is this!?

Impacted the moon at high speed?

It's already been pointed out to you that you are not comparing like with like here. It's very tiresome that you repeat comprehensively debunked arguments as if you had not even read the replies. Surely you understand that nobody can take you seriously when you exclaim in triumph that an argument which has already been patiently and completely dismantled is proof of your claim.

What kind of nonsense is this!? They used the same tracking system for the Rangers as Apollo(manned or unmanned). Equipment was added for the big dance, but it was the same system, same approach. One is very much entitled to compare Ranger with Apollo tracking. That is how they learned, and the Ranger set up was elaborated upon for the Apollo missions. But nothing was changed in terms of general approach/method.
 
Ranger was real.......

While we can respect Mr Clarke's credentials as a author of science fictio, he's no more an authority for the accuracy of space tracking systems than I am.

How is it that one device lands 3 miles from its intended point of impact is phenomenal accuracy, while another landing 5 miles away is bogus?

Still not convinced by any of your reasoning.

Ranger was real.......

Clarke is not making stuff up, he is simply reporting the facts of the Ranger missions. By Ranger 9, the tracking was that good. They could determine Ranger 9's location to within a few multiples of FEET accuracy from 240,000 miles away as the bird "flew" cislunar/perilunar space. Clarke is not making that up.

He also is not making up the FACT that Ranger 9 was intentionally crash landed only 3 miles from its intended target landing site. That was 1965.

Surveyor VII, January 1968, SOFT LANDED LESS THAN 2 MILES FROM ITS INTENDED TARGET SITE. My point to be explicit and now spell it out is that Surveyor VII soft landed only 2 miles from its intended target site without AGC type help, without astronaut input. Neil Armstrong allegedly set the Eagle down 4-5 miles from its intended target site.

So here, I now present unambiguous proof, that a preApollo robotic craft soft landed, and that soft landing was of greater accuracy with respect to its proximity of intended target than was the landing accuracy of the allegedly manned Apollo 11 craft.

Of course Apollo 11, whatever it was, could be (AND WAS!) landed robotically. Surveyor was successful, did better than Neil Armstrong pretended to do even........
 
And Apollo 12 was not built to be lightning proof either nomuse

Right, because airplanes were not routinely designed to survive lightning strikes before 1970....

http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc3pilot/dc3pilot.htm


Unbelievable. Your version of NASA seems to have them operating in complete ignorance of the long-established aerospace knowledge base, and making up how to build, navigate, and fly a spacecraft from scratch as if no-one had ever thought about the matter before. Un-fracking-believable.

And Apollo 12 was not built to be lightning proof either nomuse....

A lightning strike was not an anticipated contingency nomuse. Thomas Kelly when he designed the LM wasn't told,

"Now Tommy, we may have to launch this thing in bad weather. There is a chance this baby will get hit by a bolt on the way up. We want to be sure you do everything you can, given the lay out of the craft to be sure that if a big flash hits our bird, we can still send that bad boy up, as irresponsible as that may sound to you Tommy. Now Tommy, let's run the facts, just to be sure you know what lightning proofing would mean, the bases you need to cover. Lightning bolts can reach/create temps of 28,000 degrees centigrade. Tommy, that is hot enough to fuse soil or sand. The average lightning bolt carries 40 kAmps . A 300 meter, thousand foot bolt operates at ONE BILLION VOLTS. The power generated is of course tremendous because the event is so brief. A larger 100 kAmp bolt yields a power of 100 trillion watts. As you are well aware Tommy, a lightning strike can kill a person, including the three "pilots" up there in our world's greatest lunar flight simulator. I like to call it a "pretender" as opposed to a simulator as the thing actually works you know........ Pretty good, and pretty funny dontcha' think Tommy? We know when lightning strikes objects on earth it can start fires and has the potential to cause lots of property damage. Lightning strikes can create potential differences, induce currents, and easily vaporize circuits. We are counting on you Tommy to look at the LM's situation there at liftoff and assess its lightning vulnerability. We want you to be sure that if one of these birds gets preempted by a strike, we can go ahead and do the irresponsible thing by sending it on its way. You know Tommy, we'll be able to check by way of telemetry for this and that, but of course that wouldn't mean a thorough MATERIAL evaluation such as inspecting walls after a strike. The command module is pretty good, as little as 1/2 inch thick walls in places, but not too bad, you know Tommy. They are telling me now on the other hand Tommy, that some of the walls on that lander of yours are little thicker than a sheet of paper. Now THAT! scares me Tommy...... So we need to be sure the paper don't get torn when we launch this thang into bad weather. Reason being, we gots to send the guys no matter what cuz' there ain't no guys really in there and we don't want to waste a launch.... seeeeeeeeeeeeeee..."

Not the best satire perhaps nomuse, but you get my point and the facts are indeed accurate as related above.

The Apollo 12 was not built to take a hit and responsible parties would not allow astronauts to fly to the moon in Apollo 12 were there really boys in there.

That again is not to say the bird could not take the hit and make it, rather, no one in his or her right mind would ever chance it. It would indeed be a crazy thing to do.
 
Well I can't prove it in a rigorous sense frenat......,

Prove it. Prove they couldn't find the stars among so many. I'll bet you can't.

Well I can't prove it in a rigorous sense frenat......, but I can do a dang good job approximating rigor.

As many of you have, I too have spent time investigating how it was that the SR-71 Blackbird navigated. Knowing that the SR-71 was equipped with an authentic, fully functional, very REAL, Astro-Inertial Navigation System, ANS, the relevance in one's studying the Blackbird system with regard to making some type of determination of the Apollo system's credibility is more than obvious.

Before discussing that system as a way to emphasize how WANTING the bogus Apollo system was shamelessly pretended to be, I'd like to quickly mention that in Col. Richard Graham, U.S.A.F. (ret.)'s informative FLYING THE SR 71 BLACKBIRD, the colonel informs us at electronic book location 3451 that STARS WERE VISIBLE IN THE DAYTIME, not to mention much brighter at night as compared with our ground level experiences. So much for astronauts claiming stars are not visible in the day from altitude as based on their horrendously bogus pupilary constriction malarkey. I'll move on to something all the more substantive, though the star point is not one to viewed as a passing anecdote. It is relevant and very damaging to the bull fed to us by Armstrong and crew. Forward.......

Graham wrote another book, SR-71 REVEALED. Graham flew the legendary plane for 7 years and then worked in a capacity as an instructor subsequent to his "retiring" from mission piloting duties. Page 65 of the REVEALED book is where Graham discusses the ANS, the SR-71's Astro-Inertial Navigation System. The ANS was a star tracking navigational system. For optimal performance, 2 stars were tracked/identified. The chronometer of the Habu(another name for the SR-71 Blackbird derived from the Japanese name for a venomous snake) was accurate to within 100th of a second and supplied the Julian Date along with Greenwich Time. The Blackbird's computer featured a star catalog numbering 61 stellar navigational "skymarks/landmarks".

In the Blackbird's case, the computer would select the best stars based on earth latitude/longitude, date, time, pitch, roll, sun location. The star selection was done by computer. The best star is chosen given the conditions that obtained with respect to the variables just mentioned. The computer would go through its catalog one by one, looking for the brightest potentially identifiable star first. If not found, it would "look for" the next brightest candidate from its catalog, and so forth. The Habu employed a telescope like star tracking device in its search.

Once the Blackbird's ANS had found 2 appropriate stars, the pilot would see a light indicating "star "ON" ". So in this way star tracking was automatic, though a pilot could help out if the weather were say overcast and the pilot understood how it might be of help to the system to figuratively "point it in the right direction" say.

Given the time/date and the positions with respect to the craft of known, computer cataloged stars, the Habu could determine its position precisely. Once oriented, the plane would read a tape, a computer program, that directed the flight automatically/by way of ANS for the mission's entirety. Of course the piulots could override this as/if needed.

The point here is that the star finding capabilities are much better for a bird like the real Habu than for a pretended Eagle. The Habu uses important clues, earth latitude and longitude, yaw, roll sun location, and star brightness considerations to hunt for and find stars. The AGC allegedly knew its location to a fair degree of precision to begin with but the field of stars to be searched by the AGC/astronaut combo in the Apollo case, is very much NOT predictable as in the Habu/Blackbird case. The "weather", star visibility, is very much an unknown in the Apollo case. If the Habu computer is looking for Menkent and cannot find it, it will search for another star automatically based on the relevant variables as described. As the constellation patterns and so forth are predictable in the earth flight Blackbird case, it stands to reason the bird will find 2 stars as it looks over what amounts to a FAMILIAR GEOMETRICALLY UNDERSTANDABLE AND SO DECIPHERABLE FIELD OF STARS. This is not true in the Apollo case.

In the Apollo case there allegedly are NO CONSTELLATIONS per the astronauts themselves to help determine a star's identity. Sometimes there would be too many stars if operating in dark side conditions for an astronaut to select and verify a star. Remember, Apollo needs the astronaut to confirm the star's identity. This is not the case with the Habu.

How would Aldrin know Rigel was Rigel without Rigel floating about in the company that it usually keeps? There may be more around it than usual, or fewer, or none. If the computer directs Aldrin's/Collins'/Armstrong's attention to an area of space where the light from Rigel should be, so the computer thinks, how can they be sure which is which, if there now are 3 stars right there, instead of just one as they often describe, pretending not to be able to see stars well?

The astronauts in Apollo perform one of the roles that the computer does for the Habu, but since there are many clues for the Habu's computer to employ in positive identification of stars, but not so in the Apollo case, one plainly sees the Habu ANS to be a sensible system, while the Apollo system must be imaginary. Not imaginary in the minds of its creators, those at MIT, but in the minds of its employers, NASA and the astronauts. For the CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH THE AGC OPERATES ARE VARIABLE WITH RESPECT TO STAR VISIBILITY AND THE PATTERNS OF STARS ENCOUNTERED IN THE APOLLO CASE WILL NOT BE CONSISTENT AS THEY ARE IN THE HABU CASE. The Apollo star sighting protocol ignores this concern and does NOT take this serious objection to the system's requisite dependability into account.

One can now see in comparing the 2 systems how the Habu system would be reliable, and while the Apollo system could be seen to work for some of the stars some of the time, its performance would clearly be wanting in terms of its consistently being able to provide for accurate sightings.

All considered, we may quite rightfully view the Apollo system as woefully inadequate given the inherent risks of a trip to the moon and the need for dependable navigation, with accurate star sighting as a feature of dependable navigation.

We conclude with unmitigated metaphysical certainty that Apollo is fraudulent.
 
I see your point Loss Leader. However, my point is that these are special lies.


Clearly, you don't. Your very next sentence commits the logical fallacy of Special Pleading. In fact, there is no such thing as a special case when it comes to logic.

Logical consistency can be determined without reference to anything outside of one's argument. However, truth value cannot. Ever.

One must have some external evidence for the truth value of one's givens.

You ... don't. Your evidence for the falsity of certain statements is nothing other than your belief that the conclusion is false.

Nothing you say about common sense or your personal beliefs about what should or shouldn't have been observed matter in the least bit. It's not evidence. It doesn't make a statement more or less true.

So, please don't claim to understand my point about logic while still insisting that you are correct. Understanding my point would mean admitting that your argument is logical nonsense.

And while that would be very mature, it is not anything that any reasonable person would ever expect you to do.
 
What kind of nonsense is this!? They used the same tracking system for the Rangers as Apollo

But not the same mathematical models. As I explained at length in two separate posts, the orbital mechanics model used for tracking Ranger and Surveyor cannot be applied to Apollo, which had to use a dead-reckoning model.

Everyone else read those posts. Why didn't you?

But nothing was changed in terms of general approach/method.

False. Nearly everything was different.

Do you need me to redirect you yet again to the explanation?
 
OK , I repect your view......

Clearly, you don't. Your very next sentence commits the logical fallacy of Special Pleading. In fact, there is no such thing as a special case when it comes to logic.

Logical consistency can be determined without reference to anything outside of one's argument. However, truth value cannot. Ever.

One must have some external evidence for the truth value of one's givens.

You ... don't. Your evidence for the falsity of certain statements is nothing other than your belief that the conclusion is false.

Nothing you say about common sense or your personal beliefs about what should or shouldn't have been observed matter in the least bit. It's not evidence. It doesn't make a statement more or less true.

So, please don't claim to understand my point about logic while still insisting that you are correct. Understanding my point would mean admitting that your argument is logical nonsense.

And while that would be very mature, it is not anything that any reasonable person would ever expect you to do.

OK , I respect your view Loss Leader. Take a look at my just previous post. This is one of several arguments I shall submit demonstrating the tale Worden tells about his stars simply cannot be true.

Whether one decides to see his lies as evidence of full on Apollo fraud, or on the other hand one deems his lying to be grounded in some other motivation shall be up to the reader. Make no mistake however Loss Leader, what Worden says, simply cannot be true.

By "says", I mean by way of his statements implying he operated a genuine Apollo navigational system.
 
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