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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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According to Arthur C. Clarke, by 1965, NASA's cislunar tracking of the Ranger craft was accurate to within feet

[...]
THAT! is exactly what they did with the Apollos, the same thing they did with the last Ranger and the Surveyor craft.

Thoroughly refuted here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7746464#post7746464

and here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7752180#post7752180

You have simply repeated your original claim without addressing the refutation.
 
In Frank O'brien's book, THE APOLLO GUIDANCE COMPUTER, on page 313 one reads that the attitude deadband values ran between 0.3 and 5 degrees.

Cherry-picking.

How can you claim to have read O'Brien's book without having learned about manual alignment and sextant operations (pp. 202-208) and manual landing of the lunar module (pp. 282-284)? As has also been demonstrated with Carrying the Fire, you don't actually read your sources.

Further, you misquote O'Brien (who is another friend of mine). He writes, "The DAP [digital autopilot] must hold the spacecraft attitude to within an angle specified by the crew. This angle, called the deadband, typically has a value of between 0.3 and 5 degrees."

I'll deal with the first highlighted statement later. The second restores the word you left out, which changes the meaning.

assuming we are in non sun-illuminated "shaded" space...

Irrelevant. You have provided no information to suggest that observation through the sextant would be any different under those conditions. I have explained here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7759799#post7759799 why you may not assume it differs.

One can cram an awful lot of stars in a circle defined by 0.3 degrees of deadband tolerated drift...

Irrelevant. The view through the sextant does not change according to the naked-eye view out the windows.

Now back to the first highlighted statement in the restored O'Brien quote. The "drift" in this case is simply the hysteresis of the RCS controller. It is not equivalent to the drift in the IMU. O'Brien is talking about the RCS, not the guidance platform. Please try not to confuse entirely dissimilar subjects out of ignorance.

...let alone if the deadband was set at 1 or 2 degrees.

In the restored O'Brien quote, it says that the DPS deadband was crew selectable. The SCS deadband is selectable between 0.1 degree and 5 degrees. The primary RCS deadband selector switch is just below and to the right of the CMP's flight director instrument. While values typically range between 0.3 and 0.5, they can be as narrow as 0.1 degree.

What do you think the flight plan calls for the setting of that switch prior to a platform alignment?

I don't think so Michael and Al...

I don't think so, Patrick. You still don't get to be an engineer.
 
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On page 28 of Michael Collins' book FLYING TO THE MOON , Collins emphasizes that radio failure was "ESPECIALLY WORRISOME".

Indeed. What's your point?

Collins points out that if the astronauts were to lose ground contact, they would have to do their own navigating, 100%of it to get back to the earth.

You claim to have read Carrying the Fire. Here Collins says that navigating back to Earth without MSFN was possible. How is it that you failed to consider Collin's claim back when you were trying to say that any loss of contact with MSFN was highly dangerous.

In fact Collins here confirms what I told you then: there were contingencies in place for loss of MSFN.

Kindly retract your claim.

AND!, according to Worden, by way of his big fat "Whoops", they very much could not pull it off...

Refuted at length here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7759799#post7759799

Consider this, page 368 of Collins popular, CARRYING THE FIRE, he says Menkent and Nunki were difficult stars to find.

Good thing there were three dozen other stars he could use.

On dark side passings, especially when viewing through optics, we presumably would see many more stars than one would see from the surface of the earth.

No, begging the question. Refuted here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7759799#post7759799

This platform alignment scheme is frightfully bogus.

Not to the aerospace and astronomy professions. It only seems so to you after you've wrapped it in several meaningless layers of hysteria and assumption.

I am amazed that it took me so long to pick up on this.

Running out of new stuff to make up, eh?

And, sitting on the truth here now does feel pretty dang good.

I can't imagine you would know what that feels like. You're acting like a surgeon with an ineptly dismembered corpse on the operating table turning to the anesthetist and saying, "I think that went well."

It's blindingly obvious to all the other readers that you're simply ignoring everything that's said to you. They're saying so. Are you really that oblivious to contrary fact? Or are you simply ignoring what you don't really feel like answering?
 
The point of the video does nothing to discount my claim abaddon....

Just ask "Mr. Whoops!!!!!

OK, how about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve6XGKZxYxA

The point of the video does nothing to discount my claim, undermine its validity. The lightning claim stands and stands well abaddon...

My claim is that a 1960s vintage Apollo space ship that was not designed to be lightning proof to begin with, might well sustain significant damage were it to be hit by lightning at the time of its launch. Additionally, one would not be able to determine the nature of that damage had it occurred, or the damage's significance and its potential impact/repercussions on the space ship, the fall out if you will, simply by way of routine telemetry based assessment. Finally, I claim that given these points, were the Apollo 12 Mission, a real manned mission to the moon, the astronauts would NOT have been allowed to continue as the risk would appropriately be construed as unacceptable, and the mission's continuation construed as flat out unsafe given the circumstances. Another way to say this would be that a lightning strike would make the lunar mission automatically a NO GO. There would be no contingency to continue with a real manned lunar mission were an Apollo craft hit by lightning on the way up. After the lightning hit the mission would be an automatic abort no brainer The risk for loss of life would simply be too great.

This is my claim and it is sound. It is valid, an argument of impeccable logic. As such it shows all of Apollo to be fraudulent.

Your video does nothing in terms of undermining my most excellent points.
 
On page 28 of Michael Collins' book FLYING TO THE MOON , Collins emphasizes that radio failure was "ESPECIALLY WORRISOME". Collins points out that if the astronauts were to lose ground contact, they would have to do their own navigating, 100%of it to get back to the earth. This was a pretended concern, and a big one.

Why do you accept Collins' book about navigation when you won't accept his statements that he went to the moon? It seems to me that moon landing would void all other statements.
 
The computer knows ONLY! 37 stars. It points toward Menkent and Collins/Worden sees 50 stars there. How do they know which one is Menkent now? The computer does not know. No one on the earth can help him.

Are you even reading the other posts on this thread?

First off, the computer doesn't look at stars. It looks at position. If the platform is still where the computer predicted it to be, the target star will be at the reticule. What they are searching for is the slippage; the act of sighting the star is to tell the computer the difference between where it thinks the orientation of the spacecraft is, and the actual orientation.

Secondly...err, observational astronomy? Stars have magnitudes. This is how people have been seeing the same constellations from when they were named by early Arabic astronomers up until city-dwellers working under such poor sighting conditions they can barely see the brighter stars are able to recognize the same constellations.

Yes...the situation may have been briefly confusing. I can see it being notable enough to put in a book. Heck -- I've heard the same thing from any city-dwelling fan of the sky the first time they are somewhere nice and dark like the middle of the Nevada desert.

But it isn't a permanent or fatal condition. One just has to do a bit more work to re-establish the baseline, and then off you go.
 
This is my claim and it is sound. It is valid, an argument of impeccable logic. As such it shows all of Apollo to be fraudulent.


Actually, as a matter of simple logic, your argument fails completely. The error you're making is Begging the Question. You argue:


1. If there were a manned mission to the moon, a lightning strike would not be tolerated.
2. A lightning strike was tolerated.
3. Thus, there was no manned mission to the moon.

This argument looks logically sound, but it is not. The problem is evaluating the truth value of statement #1. You have proclaimed statement #1 to be true, but you have done so on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. You've based your evaluation of statement #1 on "common sense" or what appears likely to you.

Unfortunately, you are the worst person to try to apply common sense to one of your premises - not because you are a fool or a simpleton in any way, but merely because you are the proponent of the argument. You have every reason to want #1 to be true because you believe #3 to be true. So, you are not an impartial judge.

Your logic is flawed. Your conclusion is not necessarily true. As a matter of pure logic, you have proven nothing.

As a side issue, you may then choose to turn to the issue of rhetoric. Even if you have a logically sound argument, is your self-congratulatory tone and anointment with superlatives an effective way to communicate? It is not. It makes your argument look even worse. You should stop.
 
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Why do you accept Collins' book about navigation when you won't accept his statements that he went to the moon? It seems to me that moon landing would void all other statements.

Consistency has never been Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/etc.'s strong suit. He's saying that they couldn't have gone to the Moon because the crew couldn't astrogate, after claiming that identical unmanned LMs landed on the Moon, after saying the LM never went to the Moon, after acknowledging the LM would have worked, after saying the LM wouldn't have worked.

That would be the LM which placed military hardware (evidence for this claim: none) on the Moon for its vast array of military uses (very amusing to those of us who actually have worked on military space projects), which was actually placed there by Surveyor craft (evidence for this claim: none) or "Surveyor-type" craft (evidence for this claim: none), all to avoid being imaged by a Soviet probe "sintering as it hovered about" (evidence for this capability: none) which in reality crash-landed IIRC a quarter of the Moon away.

In order to pretend that the LM which wasn't there (except it was there, except it wasn't, except it was, except now it simultaneously could and couldn't have made it there) was there, the project gave exact coordinates to an offline science experiment team so that they could lase the reflector to pretend the LM was there, except that they didn't give the exact coordinates to them so they couldn't lase the reflector, which was a passive reflector the Soviets could have imaged, except it's some sort of "active" reflector you need a special code to get to (evidence for this claim: none).

All of which cost something on the order of a hundred billion dollars in today's money, which is actually over a trillion dollars.

This "narrative" claiming we never went to the Moon is supported by a mish-mash of sources both technical and popular... all of which agree we went to the Moon.

Got it?
 
My claim is that a 1960s vintage Apollo space ship that was not designed to be lightning proof to begin with, might well sustain significant damage were it to be hit by lightning at the time of its launch.

Irrelevant. The damage it did sustain was noted. You're talking about general suppositions. We're talking about the actual facts of the actual occurrence.

Additionally, one would not be able to determine the nature of that damage [...] simply by way of routine telemetry based assessment.

You're not qualified to make that determination.

Finally, I claim that given these points [...] the astronauts would NOT have been allowed to continue as the risk would appropriately be construed as unacceptable...

Begging the same question you've begged for weeks.

You simply want telemetry to go away. You simply want the deliberation of the spacecraft's designers and builders to go away. You dismiss it because you can't figure out how to incorporate it into your beliefs. Hence, for you, it must simply cease to exist.

Another way to say this would be that a lightning strike would make the lunar mission automatically a NO GO.

No, that's you trying to impose your personal criteria on professionals in a field in which you have no qualifications and have demonstrated considerable ignorance and ineptness.

This is my claim and it is sound.

Not in the least. You have committed the following fallacies in it:

Deduction of a proposition that can be observed.
Irrelevant analogy.
Denial of facts in evidence.
Begging the question.
Fallacy of limited scope.
Non sequitur.
Straw man.

And if that's not enough, all the qualified experts today agree that everyone involved acted prudently. They don't agree with your judgment. How do you answer that?
 
One example does not establish or refute "standard procedure." You were cherry-picking then and you're cherry-picking now.

Good grief, I am a qualified telecomms engineer, and have access to gear you , Patrick, could only dream of.

I have heard failures of the cabin pressurization requiring an RTB once 14000 feet was reached, live. No biggy.
 
The point of the video does nothing to discount my claim, undermine its validity. The lightning claim stands and stands well abaddon...

My claim is that a 1960s vintage Apollo space ship that was not designed to be lightning proof to begin with, might well sustain significant damage were it to be hit by lightning at the time of its launch. Additionally, one would not be able to determine the nature of that damage had it occurred, or the damage's significance and its potential impact/repercussions on the space ship, the fall out if you will, simply by way of routine telemetry based assessment. Finally, I claim that given these points, were the Apollo 12 Mission, a real manned mission to the moon, the astronauts would NOT have been allowed to continue as the risk would appropriately be construed as unacceptable, and the mission's continuation construed as flat out unsafe given the circumstances. Another way to say this would be that a lightning strike would make the lunar mission automatically a NO GO. There would be no contingency to continue with a real manned lunar mission were an Apollo craft hit by lightning on the way up. After the lightning hit the mission would be an automatic abort no brainer The risk for loss of life would simply be too great.

This is my claim and it is sound. It is valid, an argument of impeccable logic. As such it shows all of Apollo to be fraudulent.

Your video does nothing in terms of undermining my most excellent points.

Right, because airplanes were not routinely designed to survive lightning strikes before 1970....

http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc3pilot/dc3pilot.htm


Unbelievable. Your version of NASA seems to have them operating in complete ignorance of the long-established aerospace knowledge base, and making up how to build, navigate, and fly a spacecraft from scratch as if no-one had ever thought about the matter before. Un-fracking-believable.
 
I should mention re my post about the star sightings...first, the scenario I describe is Patrick's, not mine (aka the astronaut being confused by the number of visible stars). Jay has described concisely why the visibility conditions through the windows have nothing to do with the visibility conditions through the sextant.

Second, though...just assume that with the cabin lights off you are seeing too many stars. And assume further this is a problem. Anyone other than Patrick fail to see that there is a solution immediately to hand?
 
Jay has described concisely why the visibility conditions through the windows have nothing to do with the visibility conditions through the sextant.

Too bad the guy who would most benefit from that description appears to have no intention of addressing it. I guess there's nothing for his "common sense" to grab hold of.

Anyone other than Patrick fail to see that there is a solution immediately to hand?

Hm, if my hand were to drift somewhat to the left of the ATT HOLD DEADBAND selector switch on the CM control panel...
 
And assume further this is a problem. Anyone other than Patrick fail to see that there is a solution immediately to hand?

I think it is because everyone other than Patrick understands that when a spacecraft is in an orbit you don't have to continually navigate it, that once you have you placed it in an appropriate orbit, unless you have a good reason to change that orbit, you leave it alone and let it do its thing. I get the feeling that Patrick thinks that you have to fly a spacecraft like you fly a plane and that means that you need to be constantly making small corrections all the time and keeping it under control. Thus if you leave it alone for 3 or 4 minutes you are likely to crash.

Of course this is totally incorrect when talking spaceflight and the astronauts rarely had to do platform corrections, mostly shortly before they were due to do a burn, or if they needed to change the array that was being used to transmit/recieve. The fact that the CMP could have happily circled about the back of the moon in the darkness and out of radio contact for a whole 55 minutes without any need to change the orientation of the platform, or even having to actually touch the controls, seems slightly beyond Patrick's ability to fathom.
 
Unbelievable. Your version of NASA seems to have them operating in complete ignorance of the long-established aerospace knowledge base...

The most effective means of lightning protection is the Faraday-cage method of constructing the fuselage as an electrically-integral structure and isolating it from sensitive components by ensuring that the outer skin and secondary structure are a more attractive conductor, and then electrically insulating and/or limiting the conductive pathways to the inner structure.

The Apollo CM was constructed in just such a fashion, but ironically enough more for thermal control reasons than electrical protection. But when dealing with metals, thermal conduction and electrical conduction are surprisingly linked through a phenomenon having to do with their electron shell configuration. The bottom line is that by engineering the CM to have good thermal isolation zones, it accidentally also had good electrical isolation zones. The methods used to thermally isolate the outer skin from the rest of the spacecraft and the equipment work well to insulate it electrically too -- chiefly plastic standoffs and felt washers.

That's why the only lasting damage was to the exterior of the spacecraft, through which the stroke traveled -- just like occurs in aircraft.

Keep in mind also that most of the Apollo equipment had been conservatively engineered for the GSE maximum voltage of 60 VDC although its operating voltages were 14 or 28 VDC. Stated another way, the electrical systems of the entire spacecraft were over-engineered lest they accidentally be subject to excess voltage during ground servicing. Unlike most airplanes, the Apollo CSM had 2X to 4X voltage margins on all equipment.

The reader should nevertheless wonder why the fuel cell disconnect was tripped. Energizing the outer skin will induce transient currents in wiring nearby. This is an electrostatic effect, independent of any conduction-path mitigation in the structural design. The fuel cells have what amounts to a GFCI on them -- a very sensitive circuit-breaker that is highly attuned to the rate of change in current on the bus. That is, if the current rises too sharply on the battery relay bus, it acts quickly to isolate the fuel cells from the bus. This is the same principle by which the GFCI interrupts the circuit when the toaster falls into the bathtub, before any substantial current is allowed to flow to ground through your bathing grandmother.

A lightning stroke is too rapid a current increase, so the bus protected itself before the current exceeded any nominal operating parameters. That's why, once the bus isolation breakers were reset, there was no lasting damage. The other observed failures were caused by the "brownout" (main bus under volt) arising from the batteries' (the only power source left connected to the bus) inability to power the entire CSM at full power. They normally power only certain critical systems in the CM for reentry.

Therefore we have seen in detail that Apollo spacecraft are protected both from voltage spikes and current spikes.

"The Apollo spacecraft design has an inherent degree of protection from the effects of lightning. This protection is considered sufficient without hardware modifications to accept a low risk which can be provided by certain addi- tional launch restrictions." (Marshall Space Flight Center, et al.. Analysis of Apollo 12 lightning incident, 1970. p. 50)​

Patrick1000's insistence that the Apollo spacecraft was not designed for lightning strikes is patently false. He is grasping at straws. Further, the design details of how that protection occurs have now been presented. Patrick will naturally fail to address them because he lacks engineering expertise and cannot argue any of his claims according to engineering merit. He will simply restate his original wrong belief using different words.

The Apollo system design called for the ability to perform a full systems check and full flight validation upon reaching parking orbit. That is, the need to validate the entire spacecraft system for a lunar mission was not a new requirement realized ad hoc for Apollo 12, it was designed into the system. Why? Because there was no presumption that the spacecraft would survive a boost to orbit without significant, perhaps difficult-to-diagnose damage. An atmospheric launch is a violent event, dominated by acoustic loading that fails even modern spacecraft. Even today, every mission (manned or unmanned) begins its life by breathing a sigh of relief at having reached an interim or parking orbit, and then performing an extensive self-test to see whether the boost caused any critical damage.

Patrick1000's claim that on-orbit testing is insufficient to establish flight readiness is also patently false, expressly precluded in the mission and system design, and likely also arising from his inexpertise in engineering and his unfamiliarity with Apollo system design.
 
Hm, if my hand were to drift somewhat to the left of the ATT HOLD DEADBAND selector switch on the CM control panel...


Seriously? The CM actually had a light switch? I guess it makes sense but it never even occurred to me before.


Keep in mind also that most of the Apollo equipment had been conservatively engineered for the GSE maximum voltage of 60 VDC although its operating voltages were 14 or 28 VDC. Stated another way, the electrical systems of the entire spacecraft were over-engineered lest they accidentally be subject to excess voltage during ground servicing. Unlike most airplanes, the Apollo CSM had 2X to 4X voltage margins on all equipment.


So, here's my idiot question: When Garry Sinise was in the simulator trying to work up a way to turn on the CM without going overvolt, was he constraining himself to the real voltage available to Apollo 13 or was he using a conservative lower number?



ETA: Don't correct me. I know the guy's name was really Lieutenant Dan.
 
Seriously? The CM actually had a light switch?

:D

So, here's my idiot question: When Garry Sinise was in the simulator trying to work up a way to turn on the CM without going overvolt, was he constraining himself to the real voltage available to Apollo 13 or was he using a conservative lower number?

He wasn't dealing with voltage; he was dealing with amperage -- electrical current. Specifically, battery capacity is measured in current multiplied by time. The problem in Apollo 13 was to make the reentry batteries last for the entire time the crew was in it at the end of the mission. If you have 10 amp-hours of battery, and you draw 100 amps, you can operate for only 0.1 hour.

So Gary Sinise is trying to keep the total current draw below the threshold that represented the total available amp-hours divided by the number of hours the CM had to operate. Understanding that the load would vary as systems were brought online and taken offline, limiting the peak load to that particular value was conservative.

The trick is the sequence in which systems were activated. Because of electrical design requirements like switch-in spares and redundancy, it was possible to develop sneak circuits to ground. And certain equipment had to be powered up and brought to steady-state operation before other equipment could be turned on.

The voltage protection I spoke of was for the sake of ground support equipment (GSE), some parts of which used 60 volts. Aircraft systems (and therefore spacecraft systems) operate principally on a 14/28 volt direct-current basis. Excessive voltage can cause arcing, so designers eventually worried that ground personnel would inadvertently apply the wrong voltages to test ports and damage the spacecraft. Hence they mandated that all circuits specified for less than 60 VDC be upgraded and validated to at least 60 VDC. That means that a component that expects 14 volts has to be able to take at least four times that much without adverse operation.
 
It is hardly debunked Jack by the hedge....

Impacted the moon at high speed?

It's already been pointed out to you that you are not comparing like with like here. It's very tiresome that you repeat comprehensively debunked arguments as if you had not even read the replies. Surely you understand that nobody can take you seriously when you exclaim in triumph that an argument which has already been patiently and completely dismantled is proof of your claim.

It is hardly debunked Jack by the hedge....Arthur C. Clarke's point about the tracking capabilities of NASA were/are accurate. They were able to determine to within FEET, where a probe was. Joseph Wampler said the Lick Observatory staff were informed the location of the Eagle, the landing site coordinates, would be determined by NASA's tracking system to within tens of feet. Why don't you take it up with them? I personally believe them to be reporting the case accurately. You are welcome to disagree, but no one has debunked Clarke's claim or Wampler's report on what he was told by the NASA people. We must have a different criteria for what is or is not "debunked". Not even sure what yours might be given your claim in this regard.
 
The astronuats/Houston regularly checked to be sure there was no drift....

I think it is because everyone other than Patrick understands that when a spacecraft is in an orbit you don't have to continually navigate it, that once you have you placed it in an appropriate orbit, unless you have a good reason to change that orbit, you leave it alone and let it do its thing. I get the feeling that Patrick thinks that you have to fly a spacecraft like you fly a plane and that means that you need to be constantly making small corrections all the time and keeping it under control. Thus if you leave it alone for 3 or 4 minutes you are likely to crash.

Of course this is totally incorrect when talking spaceflight and the astronauts rarely had to do platform corrections, mostly shortly before they were due to do a burn, or if they needed to change the array that was being used to transmit/recieve. The fact that the CMP could have happily circled about the back of the moon in the darkness and out of radio contact for a whole 55 minutes without any need to change the orientation of the platform, or even having to actually touch the controls, seems slightly beyond Patrick's ability to fathom.

According to the Apollo 11 narrative, the astronauts/Houston, though relatively infrequently, nevertheless regularly, checked to be sure there was no platform drift, and if there was, the platform alignment was said to have been corrected.

The Apollo Guidance Computer does not "know" one way or the other if there is or is not drift. This is the whole point of checking the alignment. An element of the alleged protocol for determining as to whether drift has or has not occurred features the astronauts marking stars, sighting them, and then CONFIRMING THE STARS' IDENTITIES in the context of a platform alignment check by way of pressing a button. The astronaut is the one hitting the button, and in so doing confirms the star as Menkent, or Rigel, or Nunki as in the Collins examples above taken from CARRYING THE FIRE.

My point is that the narrative as presented with reference to these star sightings must be bogus. The AGC has 37 stars in its memory. These stars are sighted and their identities confirmed by the astronauts, not the computer itself, by virtue of the stars' geometric relationships to other stars, groups of stars, the earth, the sun and the moon. A star can ONLY be confirmed/identified in the context of its relation to other celestial objects. A star floating isolated in the cislunar sky is NOT something Collins could identify as Menkent, Nunki, or any one of the other primary navigational stars.

When traveling through cislunar space, around the moon's back side and what not, the star count would vary, assuming any of this were real. There would be times when there would be more stars than one could see from the surface of the earth, and there would be times when the count would be fewer. So the "constellations" would not appear as they do here on earth, not consistently anyway. There would be times wherein any given constellation pattern would become unreadable due to the presence of too many stars, other times unreadable due to there being too few; here a half as many, there a a third as many, next time a fourth as many, not to mention at times a fifth as many, sometimes a jillion stars, sometimes handfuls, and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN! So how do you find/identify/confirm stars if the constellation patterns are not consistently present, complete and recognizable? Answer, you don't find/identify and confirm the stars, and so you most decidedly do not navigate with this now patently bogus and made up joke of a system.

Note that most of the MIT guys would have bought in. this is tricky and they would not have readily been fooled. What do the MIT AGC designers know about star variable visibility conditions in cislunar and perilunar space? Less than NOTHING! Sure they load the computer memory with 37 stars, no one at NASA is going to tell them that it hardly makes any sense, and hardly would help if any of this had even remote contact with reality.

The point is that when Collins checks to be sure if the platform is aligned or not aligned in the Apollo 11 narrative, HE, COLLINS, MUST DECIDE, and confirm the stars' identities. How does he know Menkent is Menkent, Rigel Rigel, Nunki Nunki and so forth given that the only way to know stars is to recognize the company they keep? With the earth gone, there would be absolutely no helpful sense of north/south/east/west/up/down. With variable numbers of stars present, too few to recognize a particular star in a constellation on some occasions, too many to recognize a particular star in a constellation on other occasions, how would Collins know anything? Answer......Collins doesn't know anything......

Collins could not reliably identify stars under these circumstances, nor could Armstrong, nor could Aldrin. Star identities could NOT be reliably determined by this less than laughable system PERIOD!, AGC with astronaut. The view of the firmament would be inconsistent, the stellar patterns would be inconsistent, and as such, not recognizable. With regard to identifying stars, everything depends on consistency.

This whole thing is way fake and this is so easy to see now, so so so easy to see.....
 
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