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Teabagger Whacktards Pledge to Bring Back Torture

Replace "water-boarded" with "have all their limbs amputated", or "have their eyes removed", or "have their skin burned with blow torches" and you can see how your argument falls apart fairly quickly.

Do you also support those techniques, seeing as how most people killed by missiles would prefer them?


Or even go the other way: I suspect most people killed by drones would have rather had their property vandalized or been victims of a purse snatching.

It still doesn't make vandalism or purse snatching legal or moral.
 
Jeez, and here I thought the Democrats' anti-torture shtick was partly about doing the right thing, not just efficiency.

First, the Convention Against Torture was supported by most people on the planet, not just Democrats.

Second, that torture can yield bad intelligence [ETA or whatever the "efficiency" point is] is one of many arguments against torture. (Actually it refutes the "ends justify the means" argument in favor of torture, and is therefore not completely separate from moral arguments.)
 
Trouble is your opinion goes against a broad consensus worldwide (and I suspect within the U.S.) and goes against specific elements of the definition of torture in the Convention Against Torture and U.S. law.
Citing Law; hmmm. Murder, rape, robbery, etc are also illegal.

Now what?
 
Citing Law; hmmm. Murder, rape, robbery, etc are also illegal.

Now what?
Now round up everyone in the Bush interregnum who signed off on torture as a tactic and lock them up in solitary for the rest of their worthless lives.
 
Citing Law; hmmm. Murder, rape, robbery, etc are also illegal.

Now what?

Wait, what? Are you suggesting that the US use these as official tactics against terrorism or that they are current practices of the US in conducting war?

WTF mate?
 
And what if I'm not a warmongerer? If the Republicans aren't good for me, there's no way the Democrats (the party of Truman, LBJ, and Obama!) are.

"Well they passed a law in '64, to give those who ain't got a little more, but it only goes so far."

What the hell could a 19yo kid like you have against President Johnson? Of all the Democrats you could have picked, you chose him? Did you flunk history? Or perhaps you just hate civil rights?

Or perhaps I'm just feeding some troll.
 
"Well they passed a law in '64, to give those who ain't got a little more, but it only goes so far."

What the hell could a 19yo kid like you have against President Johnson? Of all the Democrats you could have picked, you chose him? Did you flunk history? Or perhaps you just hate civil rights?

Or perhaps I'm just feeding some troll.

I don't think madfoot is a troll. More like a Ron Paul follower/supporter.
 
False dilemma.

War is horrible and necessary. Torture is horrible and unnecessary. The choice is not between 'no war and no torture' or 'war and torture'.

But how do you decide what is war? It seems to me we can just dictate it is ok to kill someone who is not in a war zone without any traditional war being waged by them. To me that is not the moral "highground". I want the US to be better than that.
 
Citing Law; hmmm. Murder, rape, robbery, etc are also illegal.
Yes? So? Is there any presidential candidate proposing we should consider those crimes to be legal?

Now what?
We should continue to condemn the opinions of anyone seeking to legalize these crimes. And we certainly shouldn't consider them presidential material.
 
No, that wasn't my intent.
What was your intent?

Remember, you claimed water boarding isn't in the same class with other examples of torture. I pointed out that by broad consensus and by legal definition it is (that is, waterboarding is in the class of "torture"). You replied with this cryptic post about other crimes.
 
But how do you decide what is war? It seems to me we can just dictate it is ok to kill someone who is not in a war zone without any traditional war being waged by them. To me that is not the moral "highground". I want the US to be better than that.

I'm sorry, how does that make torture any more right? That is the subject of the thread after all.
 
But how do you decide what is war? It seems to me we can just dictate it is ok to kill someone who is not in a war zone without any traditional war being waged by them. To me that is not the moral "highground". I want the US to be better than that.

Again, the morality and legality of drone attacks on civilians is irrelevant to the morality and legality of torture. Arguing to the thread topic that waterboarding is torture (and therefore illegal and immoral) does not require arguing that drone attacks on civilians is legal or moral.

Are you trying to make a tu quoque argument? While it may be that candidates w and x are blameworthy for not condemning drone attacks in civilian areas, that fact does not make the calls of candidates y and z to bring back waterboarding somehow not blameworthy.

Frankly, I share your position on drone attacks on civilians, but it's irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
 
I'm sorry, how does that make torture any more right? That is the subject of the thread after all.

That's what I've been trying to point out. It's easy to get drawn into debate on matters irrelevant to the topic.
 
Eeeyore had addressed the tactic and strategic value of waterboarding, and I addressed only that aspect of it.

I do also have moral objections to it.

Anyone who authorized it, along with those worthless sacks of crap who thought there was nothing wrong with suspending a suspect my his wrists and putting him in diapers for days at a time should never again walk among decent humans.

Do you have moral objections to nuking villages from sub-orbit?

"Well they passed a law in '64, to give those who ain't got a little more, but it only goes so far."

What the hell could a 19yo kid like you have against President Johnson? Of all the Democrats you could have picked, you chose him? Did you flunk history? Or perhaps you just hate civil rights?

Or perhaps I'm just feeding some troll.

Er, remember Vietnam?

hey-hey-lbj-SH.gif
 
Shep Smith (FOX News): “We are America. We don’t torture. And the moment that is not the case, I want off the train!”

Smith: "WE ARE AMERICA! I DON’T GIVE A RAT’S ASS IF IT HELPS. WE ARE AMERICA! WE DO NOT *********** TORTURE! WE DON’T DO IT!"
 
It seems to me we can just dictate it is ok to kill someone who is not in a war zone without any traditional war being waged by them.
We have not done any such thing, at least not in the last two years, as part of an authorized military action.

Some soldiers got kind of out of hand after rummy and the rest of the merry morons did the damage that they did to military discipline, but that was dealt with as criminal activity.

The merry morons ordered criminal activity and called it "intelligence gathering." There was nothing intelligent about the way the useless drongos conducted the war. Many of the civilian deaths during their interregnum may have been the result of the kind of intel that you get from a prisoner when he is being water boarded, which is to say, total crap that makes the torture stop. If you think you are going to die if you don't offer them something, why not roll over on the neighbor who offered a better dowry and political connections to marry the girl you really wanted?

Civilized interogation techniques like those spelled out in the Army FMs on the subject produce far more reliable intel, and better intel leads to better targetting and better targetting leads to a drastic reduction in ther number of civilian casualties.

No, don't bother crying for Anwar al-Alwaki. He joined an enemy guerilla formation and was operating in a nation that was conducting operations against that guerilla formation. Totally legitimate target.
 
Do you have moral objections to nuking villages from sub-orbit?

Totally against it, for both moral and military reasons.

Er, remember Vietnam?

Remember the Turner Joy? That's what you get from waterboarding. Total crap intel that sends people into a panic and makes them assent to any brain-dead campaign the leader wants to lead.
 

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