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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Strawberry said:
So you have chosen to be a stubborn stalker who wastes the rest of their life waffling on about a correct verdict which you, perversely, disagree with but cannot change. Well...like you said, its none of my business if you choose to waste your life.
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The fact I do not just disagree with a verdict. The verdict has never been the focus of my interest in this case. I am more concerned about a number of other things and other people around this case.
(the verdict is not definitive btw, this is worth remembering).
 
Machiavelli said:
Yes, and if they answered totally different questions and wrote the digits in reverse order, it would be 80% on your side.

that's pathetic, please
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Nice. But I thought there was a discussion of whether Italians were upset with Hellman - clearly the poll said 44% totally agreed - are you saying that none that thought the media impacted verdict agreed with the verdict or that none of the people that thought it was another case of Italian justice screwing up meant that it was the first trial?
 
The verdict is definitive, and irreversible, Machiavelli. Amanda Knox is not going back to prison, no matter how much you hate on her on message boards. You're just wasting your life. Go save a whale or something - you only live once.
 
Grinder said:
How many does Stefanoni have?
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Stefanoni has never worked at unversity as far as I know.
I know Novelli said he wish he could have in his lab the same quality of work Stefanoni has in her HQ.
Giuseppe Novelli knows Stefanoni's laboratory very well.
 
Machiavelli said:
I think you are deluded as you decide to deny even the fact that there is a majority of people who think they are guilty.
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I would not be the least bit surprised if the majority of people think they are guilty (if we had a real, valid poll of that with better methodology).

What I am more interested in is: Among the people that have actually read all information available (or at least most of it) on the case, what percentage thinks they are guilty? I think that would be way more interesting.
 
Grinder said:
Nice. But I thought there was a discussion of whether Italians were upset with Hellman - clearly the poll said 44% totally agreed - are you saying that none that thought the media impacted verdict agreed with the verdict or that none of the people that thought it was another case of Italian justice screwing up meant that it was the first trial?
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Well, actually I find more interesting the aspect of thinking they are guilty or innocent. The fact they think they are guilty, the belief of guilt, emerges tendentially much stronger than a belief of innocence. This would be a more interesting datum, in my opinion, if I were a believer of innocence. Thus I consider it is more interesting to sum those who believe in guilt rather than the sum of those who accept the verdict.

About the other point, well basically I am implying that those who say that the verdict was influenced by the media, think Hellmann's trial was unfair and must disagree with the grounds on which the conclusion was reached, because a media influence is obviously unjust. To believe in media influence is equivalent to believing that the decision was based on false/wrong grounds.
That none of the people that thought it was another case of Italian justice screwing up.. no, I don't think I can assume that none meant the first trial: let's assume that only a portion meant the first trial, let's do a projection and consider at best in the 22% there is the same proportion of "innocenters" than the total, so a maximum of about the 11% of those 22% (2.4%).
 
Strawberry said:
She's never going back to prison, Machiavelli. Stop dreaming.
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Only a willing fool would spend its energies dreaming of such a thing. Why not allow fools who cling to such quixotic dreams continue perpetually with their clinging?


The wise man does at once what the fool does finally.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
 
Bill Williams said:
Unless folk want them reprinted here - where they're guaranteed to start a broo-ha-ha - the comments I made about AK being convictable and not necessarily sentencable on the calunnia charge are on the IIP site in the following thread....

GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD, beginning Oct 7 at 4 am website time.

There were some very articulate disagreements - for the most part showing respectful disagreement.

It's all moot anyway.
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I didn't follow it that closely on IIP, but why is it such a big deal that there were a bunch of people that disagreed with your point of view about the calumnia charge? As long as they were respectful. You seem to think the same thing will happen again here. Is your opinion that controversial?

I know you think that the court got it right. Seems like a legitimate topic of discussion to me!
 
Machiavelli said:
But I think you can see yourself, that to me, to have my ideas just because of pride, that would be utterly illogical (I could have fed my pride in this case in many other ways if I felt the need to).
The same motivation would be illogical by the majority of people who still believe in guilt.
It is obvious that you have your doubts if you can only see your point of view and you can't imagine that someone has a different conclusion based on the facts. The reason for my position can only be that I draw different conclusions based on facts.
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Yes, I can see what you are saying: From your purview, it would be untenable to base things on pride, when you are seeking only truth. But how can the facts add up for you, and not for me? I also seek truth, and am not zealous about Knox/Sollectio's innocence, outside of impartial truth and justice. I wish I could understand why it adds up for you (the proseution's case) and not for me. :confused:
 
js202 said:
Only a willing fool would spend its energies dreaming of such a thing. Why not allow fools who cling to such quixotic dreams continue perpetually with their clinging?


The wise man does at once what the fool does finally.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
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Well, quite. :)
 
Strawberry said:
.... Go save a whale or something - you only live once.
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I love whales, but in my humble opinion, by keeping on this series of useless suggestions, you are insulting the Kerchers and Meredith's memory. People never "accept" that justice is not done. They always claim the truth, and so should be.
 
Machiavelli said:
But, if a judge such as Hellmann did actually bow to American media and to a "Knox/Mellas PR machine", that would be not just an affront to pride, that would be foremost unjust. It would be a mockery of justice rather than an affront to national pride. Absolutely correct.
If Hellmann's court instead had or appeared to have just motives to acquit, the acquittal could not be or be felt as an affront to national pride. And there would be no bowing to American media or PR machines. Absolutely correct. So where is the consistence of your argument?
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Because the people polled might THINK that Hellman wanted to uphold the truth, but felt he could not because he must bend to American pressure.

These Italians, being less intellectual and less abstract than you; - less "Kierkegaardian" in their thinking, if you will - are less concerned that justice was foiled, and more concerned about WHY it was foiled: Due to American pressure.

Not everyone is capable of your Platonic, Socratic, Aristotlean stance. To you, justice denied has supremacy over the bowing to American pressure. To most, the bowing to American pressure would be the main thing.

You are an essentialist, Machiavelli. To you, essence precedes existence. To the mob, it is the other way around.
 
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Machiavelli said:
I love whales, but in my humble opinion, by keeping on this series of useless suggestions, you are insulting the Kerchers and Meredith's memory. People never "accept" that justice is not done. They always claim the truth, and so should be.
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You are now on the side all of the pro-innocence folk were after the Massei verdict -- thinking justice has not been done, and you must keep fighting to reveal the truth.

The problem with your view, as I see it, is that once people learn all about the actual evidence and other facts about the case, most end up on the innocence side. So it is you that are in the minority. But you probably don't agree with that! I think that it is obvious.

To me, this has never been about supporting Amanda and Raffaele, but about supporting the truth. The fact that those things are one and the same is just coincidence. True justice for Meredith is to find the truth.

I, for one, can't wait to see Hellmann's motivation report.
 
2 - ll's + 2 - n's

What's happenin' everyone!
It's fun to sit back and read without posting sometimes...

Just a FYI, it's Hellmann
not
Hellman

Peace,
RW
 
Dougm said:
You are now on the side all of the pro-innocence folk were after the Massei verdict -- thinking justice has not been done, and you must keep fighting to reveal the truth.

The problem with your view, as I see it, is that once people learn all about the actual evidence and other facts about the case, most end up on the innocence side. So it is you that are in the minority. But you probably don't agree with that! I think that it is obvious.

To me, this has never been about supporting Amanda and Raffaele, but about supporting the truth. The fact that those things are one and the same is just coincidence. True justice for Meredith is to find the truth.
I, for one, can't wait to see Hellmann's motivation report.
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Bravo. Exactly right, all the way.
 
I have finally figured out Mach's profession, or at least what it should be. A politician. He rambles on trying to wear everyone out, while saying absolutely nothing. He is or would be a great politician.
 
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