Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Grinder]

I agree with Machiavelli on this one. Only 11% are saying they believe they are innocent, period. I don't think the responders are trying to parse it they way we have done. It is just a simple opinion poll. Are they giving an honest answer is my question?

I don't think the poll is worth a hill of beans. It is opt in and there was no way to answer in the way the actual court system judged the case. How would a former pro guilt person answer?

I would have answered media or another injustice which totaled about 38%.

 

[Machiavelli]

The only majority that matters in the real world is the jury, because they're the only majority which had the power to convict or free her. You can delude yourself until the cows come home, but the reality is - you lost. Your side lost, Amanda Knox is free, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Maybe time to drop it, move on, find another hobby?

I think you are the deluded one if you think that people will stop accusing Knox of being a murderer. People will do, and will do a lot.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thanks. I have a feeling this verdict was taken as a personal affront to their pride. That one quote from the other article I linked was also interesting, the one that said we even believe in Stefi. Not sure if that is an accurate translation, but I thought it was amusing.

I subscribe entirely with Umbria24 position. But I don't feel the verdict as a personal affront to my pride. I consider it as a personal affront because it is an insult to truth and justice. I am with Mignini and Comodi not because they better feed my national pride compared to Hellmann's court, but because Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones, while Hellmann's court and Vecchiotti were not.

 

[smkovalinksy]

It is impossible to read human brains so I guess would be impossible to discover what people actually believe. People say they are religious and believe in God, but they do? We can't know, we can only take what they declare.

I would rule out National/Local pride as a reason, since to me it is illogical: if one believes in innocence, there would be no need to pretend in order to feed national/local pride, there would be an equal opportunity to feed his/her pride by agreeing with Hellmann's court, saying like "I am proud of Hellman", asserting that justice triumphed, that the system is careful and fair etc.

While if one assertd that Hellmann's decision is the "umpeteenth case of justice malfunction", or that the media expecially foreign noe plaid a role in the decision, or if shouts in the street that he is ashamed of the acquittal, this would not be an orthodox way of expressing national pride.

The idea that an Italian judge such as Hellman might have bowed to American media and a "Knox/Mellas PR machine" rather than uphold Mignini and Massei could very well be an affront to local and national pride. I believe Rose has with his usual sharpness and astuteness once again managed to hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Grinder]

I subscribe entirely with Umbria24 position. But I don't feel the verdict as a personal affront to my pride. I consider it as a personal affront because it is an insult to truth and justice. I am with Mignini and Comodi not because they better feed my national pride compared to Hellmann's court, but because Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones, while Hellmann's court and Vecchiotti were not.

I truly think that is very sad.

 

[Caper]

I would rule out National/Local pride as a reason, since to me it is illogical:

Of course you would rule it out. Because not ruling it out would mean a long hard look in the mirror. So instead you hand wave everything off. Who knows why an intelligent person like yourself can delude yourself into believing something so stupid.

 

[Machiavelli]

I searched via "Publish or Perish" and this is the result:

Query: Carla Vecchiotti: all
Summary: <<
Papers: 6 Cites/paper: 1.83 h-index: 2 AWCR: 1.31
Citations: 11 Cites/author: 2.75 g-index: 3 AW-index: 1.14
Years: 31 Papers/author: 1.75 hc-index: 1 AWCRpA: 0.33
Cites/year: 0.35 Authors/paper: 3.67 hI-index: 0.50 e-index: 2.45
hI,norm: 1 hm-index: 0.75
Query date: 2011-11-13

...
-
Osterwelle

Ok, now, for a comparison, you might search Giuseppe Novelli.

As a reference, the average h-index for a fellow professor in Vecchiotti's position is about 8-9.

 

[Grinder]

Ok, now, for a comparison, you might search Giuseppe Novelli.

As a reference, the average h-index for a fellow professor in Vecchiotti's position is about 8-9.

How many does Stefanoni have?

 

[smkovalinksy]

I subscribe entirely with Umbria24 position. But I don't feel the verdict as a personal affront to my pride. I consider it as a personal affront because it is an insult to truth and justice. I am with Mignini and Comodi not because they better feed my national pride compared to Hellmann's court, but because Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones, while Hellmann's court and Vecchiotti were not.

If this is the way things really stood, then of course you would be expressing a very correct and noble sentiment. But as things stand, this is disordered and upside down. Were the acquittals really and truly an assault to truth and justice, yours would be the proper and fitting stance. But how can you deliberately close your eyes to the facts? Italian pride? What? I has my doubts. I has my doubts about your stance.

 

[Diocletus]

In a succint logical explanation, flaws in methodology are not always enough to make disappear any data.

It would be against common sense. Because my question is: what do you think the result of the poll would have been, if it were made among JREF posters in this thread? Would this 11% be a likely datum to expect? And if done in West Seattle?

I don't know, but I do know what it would be in Hellman's courtroom.

 

[Machiavelli]

The idea that an Italian judge such as Hellman might have bowed to American media and a "Knox/Mellas PR machine" rather than uphold Mignini and Massei could very well be an affront to local and national pride. I believe Rose has with his usual sharpness and astuteness once again managed to hit the nail right on the head.

But, if a judge such as Hellmann did actually bow to American media and to a "Knox/Mellas PR machine", that would be not just an affront to pride, that would be foremost unjust. It would be a mockery of justice rather than an affront to national pride.
If Hellmann's court instead had or appeared to have just motives to acquit, the acquittal could not be or be felt as an affront to national pride. And there would be no bowing to American media or PR machines.
So where is the consistence of your argument?

 

[Swimfish]

Skind, it's a news online poll. It is not meant to be logical. It's meant to be distinguished in less than five seconds by an average reader. This is why it is loaded with slogans.

You are half right and LJ is completely correct. It's not even a "poll" its a ******* beauty contest. It has absolutely no logical or statistical value other than to deceive the weak minded. If you want you can even vote there often in an illogical manner and you don't even have to be Italian.

Yet you cite/argue validity of the "findings" in this non-poll as being anyway demonstrative of the actual opinions held by real people. This is just more undisputed evidence supporting a theory that your postings lack critical reasoning and represent nothing more than semi-delusional fever dreams.

Rose, you are onto something when you ask if the non-poll is just pretend. It is.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to bypass the autocensor.

 

[Diocletus]

Ok, now, for a comparison, you might search Giuseppe Novelli.

As a reference, the average h-index for a fellow professor in Vecchiotti's position is about 8-9.

Don't forget to include his special new paper studying the apparently common phenomena of meteors striking courthouses.

 

[Grinder]

44% of the respondents said the court acted completely correctly - 11% said they never doubted her innocence which is amazing considering the early PR campaign from ILE, another 33% thought she was guilty but there wasn't enough evidence. If half of the 18% of those that thought it was another Italian judicial screw-up that would bring the total to 53%. If half the media answers were okay with the verdict then that takes it to 61%.

 

[Machiavelli]

If this is the way things really stood, then of course you would be expressing a very correct and noble sentiment. But as things stand, this is disordered and upside down. Were the acquittals really and truly an assault to truth and justice, yours would be the proper and fitting stance. But how can you deliberately close your eyes to the facts? Italian pride? What? I has my doubts. I has my doubts about your stance.

But I think you can see yourself, that to me, to have my ideas just because of pride, that would be utterly illogical (I could have fed my pride in this case in many other ways if I felt the need to).
The same motivation would be illogical by the majority of people who still believe in guilt.
It is obvious that you have your doubts if you can only see your point of view and you can't imagine that someone has a different conclusion based on the facts. The reason for my position can only be that I draw different conclusions based on facts.

 

[Strawberry]

I think you are the deluded one if you think that people will stop accusing Knox of being a murderer. People will do, and will do a lot.

I don't think people will stop accusing her, and I never said that I did. I said she is free, the court's verdict has vindicated her on the grounds of innocence, (as opposed to merely not guilty), and there is nothing you can do to change that.

You, and the others who are planning to spend the rest of your lives accusing Amanda Knox of murder, have no power to change that. She is not going back to prison.

So you have a clear choice here - carry on accusing her like a bunch of stalkers, or accept defeat graciously and move on.

 

[Machiavelli]

44% of the respondents said the court acted completely correctly - 11% said they never doubted her innocence which is amazing considering the early PR campaign from ILE, another 33% thought she was guilty but there wasn't enough evidence. If half of the 18% of those that thought it was another Italian judicial screw-up that would bring the total to 53%. If half the media answers were okay with the verdict then that takes it to 61%.

Yes, and if they answered totally different questions and wrote the digits in reverse order, it would be 80% on your side.

that's pathetic, please

 

[Machiavelli]

I don't think people will stop accusing her, and I never said that I did. I said she is free, the court's verdict has vindicated her on the grounds of innocence, (as opposed to merely not guilty), and there is nothing you can do to change that.

You, and the others who are planning to spend the rest of your lives accusing Amanda Knox of murder, have no power to change that. She is not going back to prison.

So you have a clear choice here - carry on accusing her like a bunch of stalkers, or accept defeat graciously and move on.

You waste your time if you talking about what I shall do or not do. I do what I want and what I do is not going to be your buisness. The truth is the truth and cannot be defeated.

 

[Machiavelli]

You are half right and LJ is completely correct. It's not even a "poll" its a ******** beauty contest. It has absolutely no logical or statistical value other than to deceive the weak minded. If you want you can even vote there often in an illogical manner and you don't even have to be Italian.

Yet you cite/argue validity of the "findings" in this non-poll as being anyway demonstrative of the actual opinions held by real people. This is just more undisputed evidence supporting a theory that your postings lack critical reasoning and represent nothing more than semi-delusional fever dreams.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

Rose, you are onto something when you ask if the non-poll is just pretend. It is.

I think you are deluded as you decide to deny even the fact that there is a majority of people who think they are guilty.

 

[Strawberry]

You waste your time if you talking about what I shall do or not do. I do what I want and what I do is not going to be your buisness. The truth is the truth and cannot be defeated.

So you have chosen to be a stubborn stalker who wastes the rest of their life waffling on about a correct verdict which you, perversely, disagree with but cannot change. Well...like you said, its none of my business if you choose to waste your life.

Moving on - I have to compliment the Italian justice system. All systems make mistakes, but in Italy apparently the appeals system is so efficient that it only took four years to sort this out. They even managed to sort it so well that the real killer, Rudy Guede, is already behind bars. Kudos to Italy.

I wish certain other justice systems could operate so efficiently to correct their mistakes, (West Memphis, I'm looking at you).