• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

trusetheeker said:
Truethat, I came to the conclusion some time back that "skepticism"="ignoring all evidence that doesn't support the mainstream belief system."

<snipped>
Click to expand...

Thank you for saving me from having to read what I'm sure would have turned out to be a truckload of recycled bullcrap.
 
trusetheeker said:
....I realise that one child's death does not disprove the whole vaccination industry but the story of this child's death says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts despite the overwhelming pressure applied by the pro-vaccination army.

Ian's Voice

....
Click to expand...

Why hasn't that website been updated to include these, the last newsletter is from 2009, and the blog link does not work:

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Moran.Gromowski.decision on stipulation.pdf

and

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Moran.Gromowski 11 08 2010.pdf
 
I don't understand how you can say "trust our instincts" and not see the hypocrisy in using a computer. Your instincts should be telling you that electricity and near-liminal communication are evil magic powers. Why aren't you cowering in a cave every time you hear thunder, or beating your neighbor to death every time he annoys you? Cars make lots of noise, which should instinctively tell you that they're dangerous predators. Why aren't you hiding in a tree?
 
Chris Haynes said:
Why hasn't that website been updated to include these, the last newsletter is from 2009, and the blog link does not work:

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Moran.Gromowski.decision on stipulation.pdf

and

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Moran.Gromowski 11 08 2010.pdf
Click to expand...

Good question, Chris. $190,000 compensation for the loss of their son after weeks of intense suffering. You'd think that they'd want to advertise that. Of course, the settlement doesn't include an admission of guilt so chalk up another non-vaccine related death to the millions already denied.

Nothing to see here. Keep moving and make sure your children get their shots on the way out.

Perhaps the OP can show all this to his wife as a way of reassuring her that vaccines are safe?
 
trusetheeker said:
Truethat, I came to the conclusion some time back that "skepticism"="ignoring all evidence that doesn't support the mainstream belief system." Everytime vaccination gets discussed on this forum, you get the same repetition of fear-mongering and belief based on the industries' propaganda (oops, evidence) and, of course, the blanket statement that all contrary studies, evidence and opinions have been discredited.
Click to expand...
Ah, so that would mean that the so-called "evidence" you want to believe gets disembowelled ergo pro-vaccine studies are propaganda. These mental gymnastics are almost an Olympic sport with anti-vaxxers. What studies that have been discredited do you have a problem with? Making such blanket statements without examples seems rather feckless.

Vaccination is a religion and serious intellectual discussion is thwarted by the emotional attachment to entrenched beliefs as you have seen over the course of this discussion. There's no chance that any of the pro-vacciners will give any thought that the alternative view might be correct nor will they realise the ridiculousness of their vicious attacks against anyone who questions their beliefs.
Click to expand...
What is this "alternative view" you speak of? Why would it be "alternative" if ample evidence of its validity exists? This is like homeopaths complaining that some kind of different science must be used to qualify homeopathy.

Why "of course?" There's reams of "discredited" evidence showing that vaccinations are a major cause of epidemics. Anyone who actually understands human physiology will realise that vaccinations are just a modern day version of medical mumbo-jumbo where demons were replaced by germs then germs by viruses. Herbert Shelton often spoke about how physicians are trained in the black art of poisoning the sick and that vaccinations are a method of poisoning the well which increases the physicians income base.
Click to expand...
How fascinating. What are these "reams" of evidence showing that vaccinations are a major cause of epidemics? Vaccines are cheap compared to treating and curing diseases by the way. Why go through all that bother of creating a vaccine poison when we could just let entire populations get all of the VPDs that they had been getting?

I realise that one child's death does not disprove the whole vaccination industry but the story of this child's death says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts despite the overwhelming pressure applied by the pro-vaccination army.

Ian's Voice

I applaud your strong stand for your and your childrens' rights to bodily sovereignty and hope that your strength will guide others to the light of rational thinking.
Click to expand...
Instincts? This term is so overused and no one really has any idea of what they even mean by it with regards to vaccination. "Bodily sovereignty"? WTH is that too? Do you think measles, hepatitis, Hib, pertussis or tetanus give a rat's bum about "bodily sovereignty"?

Este
 
trusetheeker said:
.... Of course, the settlement doesn't include an admission of guilt so chalk up another non-vaccine related death to the millions already denied.....
Click to expand...
What makes you think an illness was vaccine related when other causes of the baby's death were clearly implicated just because the court settlement was agreed to? Sometimes the cost of litigation is more than the settlement and people decide to settle even if they could win the case. The parents also claimed they were not given the VIS (vaccine information statement). On that basis alone a court can find in favor of a defendant.

I read through the kid's history as reported by his parents on their web site. The mother had to be induced before the delivery date because she had preeclampsia. The child was stressed as indicated by meconium stained amniotic fluid. Shortly after birth the child developed a fever and was in the NICU for a week. Only then was he well enough to be given the hep B vaccine and sent home. That night he developed a rash and his symptoms went downhill from there.

How is it you arbitrarily choose the hep B vaccine as the cause of this baby's illness? It's ignorant, but all too common for people to latch on to some thing they decide must be the cause, ignoring the fact there are many things that could have caused this from a viral infection to some other toxic exposure in utero in particular the preeclampsia causes some of the same symptoms the baby in this case suffered.
Severe preeclampsia is defined as the presence of 1 of the following symptoms or signs in the presence of preeclampsia:

[snip]
Proteinuria of more than 5 g in a 24-hour collection or more than 3+ on 2 random urine [snip]
Pulmonary edema or cyanosis
[snip]
... impaired liver function
Thrombocytopenia
[snip]

HELLP syndrome (hemolysis, elevated liver enzyme, low platelets) may be an outcome of severe preeclampsia, although some authors believe it to have an unrelated etiology. The syndrome has been associated with particularly high maternal and perinatal morbidity and mortality rates and may be present without hypertension or, in some cases, without proteinuria.

In the fetus, preeclampsia can lead to ischemic encephalopathy, growth retardation, and the various sequelae of premature birth....

...Mechanisms behind preeclampsia
Although hypertension may be the most common presenting symptom of preeclampsia, it should not be viewed as the initial pathogenic process.

The mechanisms by which preeclampsia occurs is not certain, and numerous maternal, paternal, and fetal factors have been implicated in its development....
Click to expand...
(emphasis mine)

The fetus can actually be the source of the preeclampsia in the mother.

This infant was sick since prior to birth despite the mom's claim the baby was heathy at birth. The baby's symptoms became apparent hours after birth. This is not unusual. Maternal life support via the placenta sustains the baby in utero. It is born with some reserve. But as the infant's ill body tries to take over after birth, problems accumulate and show up a few hours later.

What does the vaccine research reveal:
No evidence exists of a causal association between hepatitis B vaccination, including administration of the birth dose, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) or other causes of death during the first year of life (185--187). Infant death rates, including rates of SIDS, declined substantially in the United States during the 1990s, coincident with an increase in infant hepatitis B vaccination coverage from <1% to >90% and implementation of efforts to reduce SIDS through infant sleep positioning and separation from other persons in bed (188).
Click to expand...
(emphasis mine)

People who don't understand research or who believe there is some big conspiracy to hide research results or who believe the vaccine manufacturers control information (that's the stupidest belief) or that every medical provider and researcher is either duped or in on the conspiracy come to these ignorance based conclusions that vaccines cause things they don't cause and 'natural' diseases are harmless.

I don't know how one addresses the ignorance, but that is the problem, not the vacines.
 
Last edited:
Haven't read a single post, so please forgive me if this has been referenced .... I saw a Law and Order: SVU episode ("Selfish") that dealt with an anti-vac mother whose infected child caused the death of another child on a playground. Excellent, eye opening episode that shows the consequences of such actions. Here's a link.
 
Trent Wray said:
Haven't read a single post, so please forgive me if this has been referenced .... I saw a Law and Order: SVU episode ("Selfish") that dealt with an anti-vac mother whose infected child caused the death of another child on a playground. Excellent, eye opening episode that shows the consequences of such actions. Here's a link.
Click to expand...

Having no great love for American television, I won't take advantage of this link. I'm guessing by the title "Selfish" that it is promoting the scaremongering propaganda about how refusing to subject your body to the vaccine scam endangers all those poor innocent people around you. Am I right?
 
trusetheeker said:
Having no great love for American television, I won't take advantage of this link. I'm guessing by the title "Selfish" that it is promoting the scaremongering propaganda about how refusing to subject your body to the vaccines scam endangers all those poor innocent people around you. Am I right?
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you.
 
trusetheeker, where's this evidence you were talking about that shows that vaccines are a major cause of epidemics?
 
truethat said:
Like what?

People are getting pissed off at the very unpopular truth that the woman's baby is probably fine without the vaccines for a few years because the baby will be protected by herd immunizations. That's a fact is it not?

Sorry you think it's selfish or mean or whatever else people want to say just because they don't like it, but it is a fact.
Click to expand...
I highlighted "probably" because there is still a risk of infection which would be lessened by vaccination.
 
Lamuella said:
trusetheeker, where's this evidence you were talking about that shows that vaccines are a major cause of epidemics?
Click to expand...

Lamuella, I'm working on the reply to Estellea and SkepticGinger which will address this. Unfortunately, my time to devote to this is limited but I'm hoping to complete this within the next 2 days. It doesn't help that while I'm reviewing my previous references, I keep bumping into supporting material that I hadn't seen before. Did I say reams?
 
trusetheeker said:
Having no great love for American television, I won't take advantage of this link. I'm guessing by the title "Selfish" that it is promoting the scaremongering propaganda about how refusing to subject your body to the vaccine scam endangers all those poor innocent people around you. Am I right?
Click to expand...
Hmm ... not totally. The title leaves it open to ambiguity. It's why I thought the show was quite excellent in the "many angles" it portrays:

A baby goes missing. The mother is a self absorbed spoiled brat who pretends it has been abducted. Turns out she buried it in a shallow grave near some junk yard. She confesses to shaking the baby too much because it bothered her, and getting afraid of what she had done, goes and buries it. She blames her life on her alcoholic father, her "poor me" attitude, etc and so forth.

However, autopsy reveals that the baby had measles and actually died from measles. Although the baby showed signs of malnourishment, neglect, etc ... she did not shake the baby to death ... it actually died "naturally" from the disease. The baby was too young to be vaccinated however ...

They trace the infection back to a playground where a woman let her child play, a child whom she refused to vaccinate. They don't say that her (the anti-vac mother) reasons were overtly religious, or paranoiac, merely that she was exercising her rights and trying to be a cautious mother in determining what was best for her children and family. The SVU squad is torn between blaming her for the death of the baby, even though she hasn't done anything illegal. However, they do need to try and control anymore possible infections, and as a result, the mayor goes off the deep end and wants to hang the mother for being so irresponsible, making an example out of her because elections are coming up, yada yada. Plus, the mother who decided to bury her dead baby in a shallow grave and lie about it catches wind of the "good mother's" choice being the responsible party ... and she contacts a local reporter who loves to exploit hype, and they launch a crusade as well against blaming this woman, terrorizing her, etc and so forth. It further destroys her own family, whose alcoholic father finally decides to kill himself ... and she gives in fully to her irresponsible hate and they try to get the woman who chose to not vaccinate her child killed.

In all of this, they portray multiple angles as being victimized, but specifically, the woman who chose to not vaccinate remains free .... the jury finds her not guilty, her freedom of choice protected. However, there are still consequences for her choice ... the way she puts others at risk, etc. And whilst the "bad mother" who basically malnourished her child, ignored it, let it die and then buried it to cover over what she thought she had done ... was completely irresponsible towards her child ... the "good mother" still had consequences to endure for her own choice of placing other children at further risk because she chose to do what was best for her own child, without considering the effects on society.

So the title "Selfish" was meant to be ambiguous. Was the anti-vac mother selfish ? Was the irresponsible, neglectful, murderous mother selfish ? Was the mayor and public outcry selfish ? I thought the episode did a great job of highlighting the fact that ... regardless of what is "right" or "wrong" or worthy of condemnation or not ... there are still consequences for your actions that go beyond just your own sphere of influence.
 
Last edited:
trusetheeker said:
Having no great love for American television, I won't take advantage of this link. I'm guessing by the title "Selfish" that it is promoting the scaremongering propaganda about how refusing to subject your body to the vaccine scam endangers all those poor innocent people around you. Am I right?
Click to expand...
How about some real life selfish behaviour that has directly lead to the death and inevitable deaths of 3 young children? http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/11/another-sspe-case-angelina-is-dying.html

Este
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom