JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[I Ratant]

Thanks, Walter...
It's been a long, interesting journey..

 

[Tomtomkent]

So Robert, if you will face a direct question: What evidence do you have the statements you quoted are any more or less reliable or true than those in the Warren Commission? And don't answer that with "The Warren Commission was a whitewash" or anything else you haven't proven. What material evidence is there that your sourcces are more honenest than the ones who DID testify in the Warren Commission? On what are you basing your assessment that these are the truth and the statements they contradict are lies?

 

[Major Major]

.
That's it.
David has the president's body removed from the coffin in the aft cabin in the C-135, taken to the cargo bay below that, X-rayed, and other nasty things done.
All the while the major general who took it upon himself to provide his own personal honor guard for his Commander in Chief does nothing about this.
Which is a pretty good indicator that the CTwinkies know nothing about integrity and honor and self-worth. Which all their novels prove.

You're missing the point.

The CTers know that "the major general who took it upon himself to provide his own personal honor guard" was following orders when he stood by to let the president's body be removed and altered. Such things as "integrity and honor and self-worth" don't exist among the plotters. And if the general had had any qualms, he would have renounced them upon being told "shut up and soldier, soldier" since such people always absolutely obey orders.

In short, these values don't exist among the plotters. There is nothing they won't stoop to. And making appeals to "integrity and honor and self-worth" is something only sheeple would do.

 

[Walter Ego]

Welcome To The Thread Major Major!

You're missing the point.

The CTers know that "the major general who took it upon himself to provide his own personal honor guard" was following orders when he stood by to let the president's body be removed and altered. Such things as "integrity and honor and self-worth" don't exist among the plotters. And if the general had had any qualms, he would have renounced them upon being told "shut up and soldier, soldier" since such people always absolutely obey orders.

In short, these values don't exist among the plotters. There is nothing they won't stoop to. And making appeals to "integrity and honor and self-worth" is something only sheeple would do.

Great to see some new blood! Or should I say fresh meat?

So what's your position on the JFK assassination? Lone Nutter or Conspiracy Kook?

 

[Robert Prey]

So Robert, if you will face a direct question: What evidence do you have the statements you quoted are any more or less reliable or true than those in the Warren Commission? And don't answer that with "The Warren Commission was a whitewash" or anything else you haven't proven. What material evidence is there that your sourcces are more honenest than the ones who DID testify in the Warren Commission? On what are you basing your assessment that these are the truth and the statements they contradict are lies?

If you are alleging that any of these witnesses didn't really say what they said, name one.

 

[Robert Prey]

Thanks to Tomtomken and listbynmdsue for the quotes from Robert Prey.



This is what happens when you get your history from conspiracy books rather than from history books. It was the Kennedy family who refused to release the autopsy photos and x-rays to the Warren Commission.

The fear was that gruesome photos of JFK might be leaked to the press, not an unreasonable assumption, then or now. (Assassination ghoul and huckster Robert Groden later did steal an autopsy head shot of Kennedy from the National Archives.)

Robert quotes from conspiracy author Charles A. Crenshaw, a resident physician at Parkland Hospital in November 1963, on the head wounds. Is Crenshaw a credible witness?




Indeed the trauma room at Parkland seems to have been very crowded that day.




In fact it's amazing that all those people Robert quotes got such a good look at the "exit wound" on the back of Kennedy's head since Kennedy's body was never turned over at Parkland Hospital during the frantic attempts to resuscitate him. (Posner, p. 288) Or even after Kennedy was dead.


More on Crenshaw here. More on the Parkland head wound witnesses here.

How ironic itis, that when "critical thinkers" have no answers, they run to McAdams to find out what they should think. But McAdams cannot rufute what Dr. Crenshaw observed, and what he observed is consistent with virtually all the other witnesses at Parkland, of which I have only listed a few. To imply that Crenshaw is a liar is to imply that all the other Parkland witnesses are liars. A pretty lame argument, but that's all you guys have got.

 

[Robert Prey]

If there's one thing I've learned reading conspiracy stuff it's that basing an argument on "angles of photograph shadows" is the first sign of a whackatoo.

If I've learned one thing from know-nothings, it is the retreat to ad hominem attack for lack of any reasoned argument.

 

[RoboTimbo]

You failed to answer the questions, Robert.

Why does the Zapruder film show the right front of Kennedy's skull blowing out?

How soon after the end of the Zapruder film does someone shoot Kennedy, blowing out the back of his skull?

 

[Robert Prey]

Thanks to Tomtomken and listbynmdsue for the quotes from Robert Prey.

This is what happens when you get your history from conspiracy books rather than from history books. It was the Kennedy family who refused to release the autopsy photos and x-rays to the Warren Commission.

A routine protocol whenever a President is assassinated and you already know it was just one lone nut who did it, in which case the WC concluded that they didn't need to see no stinkin' autopsy photos or x-rays. They already knew who did it and that was good enough for the WC. So they gave the excuse that the Kennedy family objected that was good enough for Walter.

 

[Robert Prey]

So Robert, if you will face a direct question: What evidence do you have the statements you quoted are any more or less reliable or true than those in the Warren Commission? And don't answer that with "The Warren Commission was a whitewash" or anything else you haven't proven. What material evidence is there that your sourcces are more honenest than the ones who DID testify in the Warren Commission? On what are you basing your assessment that these are the truth and the statements they contradict are lies?

Many of the the statements of the quoted doctors had their origins in WC testimony. The WC came to its pre-determined conclusions despite such adverse testimony from the Parkland doctors.

 

[Robert Prey]

You failed to answer the questions, Robert.

Why does the Zapruder film show the right front of Kennedy's skull blowing out?

How soon after the end of the Zapruder film does someone shoot Kennedy, blowing out the back of his skull?

The Z film shows whatever your point of view wants it to show. In my view, the right skull blow out is consistent with a "jet effect" of a shot from the front.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The Z film shows whatever your point of view wants it to show. In my view, the right skull blow out is consistent with a "jet effect" of a shot from the front.

No, the Zapruder film shows the ejecta coming out the right front due to a small entrance wound in the rear and a large exit wound in the right front. Someone in this thread posted information about entrance and exit wounds. You might want to read that.

How soon after the end of the Zapruder film does someone else shoot Kennedy from the front, blowing out the back of his skull?

 

[Robert Prey]

Zapruder demonstrating what he saw on, on tv that evening...
And "ejecta" from the bullet from the rear.... the 6th floor of the TSBD...
There is no bullet from the front.

Zapruder never viewed the back of the President's Head. Neither did you. But the Parkland doctors did.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Zapruder never viewed the back of the President's Head. Neither did you. But the Parkland doctors did.

The question about the Zapruder film is still there waiting to be answered. Is your WAG that someone altered the Zapruder film then? Did someone switch Kennedy's head before getting to Parkland? You've still failed to answer the question about why the exit wound and the ejecta are in the right front of Kennedy's head, as seen in the Zapruder film.

 

[Walter Ego]

Meanwhile Back In Reality...

A routine protocol whenever a President is assassinated and you already know it was just one lone nut who did it, in which case the WC concluded that they didn't need to see no stinkin' autopsy photos or x-rays. They already knew who did it and that was good enough for the WC. So they gave the excuse that the Kennedy family objected that was good enough for Walter.

Robert has a real problem with the historical record when it clashes with his conspiracy beliefs. There is of course no "routine protocol" to blame lone nuts when a president is assassinated. Investigations are done and blame is assigned to groups or individuals.

The Lincoln assassination was the result of a conspiracy. The 1950 attempt to take the life of Harry Truman by Puerto Rican nationalists was a conspiracy.

The historical record and all subsequent investigations gives us no reason to doubt that lone individuals killed presidents James A. Garfield, William McKinley and John F. Kennedy. (And if we don't limit ourselves to presidential assassinations, we can add Huey Long, Harvey Milk, George Moscone, et al to the list of elected officials brought down by lone gunmen.)

The lone gunman is in fact a specter that haunts the American political and social landscape. Witness the recent case of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. A lone gunman killed John Lennon and lone gunmen attempted to kill George Wallace and Ronald Reagan.

And it was not an "excuse" of the Warren Commission that the Kennedy family would not release the JFK autopsy photos and x-rays. It a historical fact documented in numerous books and other sources, a fact Robert could have easily discovered for himself if he could tear himself away from the scribblings of his beloved conspiracy authors.

It is also untrue that no one on the Commission looked at the photos or x-rays. Earl Warren and chief counsel J. Lee Rankin were allowed (by Robert Kennedy) to review them.

In any case, this is all academic at this point. The autopsy photos and x-rays have been released and reviewed by several panels of experts who have concluded they are consistent evidence of a head shot to the rear.

But in Robert's conspiracy world, the opinions of these experts must be discarded because of the confused, contradictory and, in some cases, confabulated, "testimony" of the Parkland Hospital witnesses, the majority of whom later admitted they were mistaken.

 

[Tomtomkent]

If you are alleging that any of these witnesses didn't really say what they said, name one.

No. That is quite obviously not what I said. I asked what evidence you have their versions of events are more truthful than the witnessess those statements directly contradict?

You offer no reason to believe their statements (not testemony by the way as there is nothing legally binding about those statements and no ramification for falsehood) over the ones in the Warren Comission, supported by the Zupruder film, autopsy reports, photographic records, etc.

Perhaps you might want to answer the question this time instead of concocting a straw man argument against me.

 

[Tomtomkent]

The Z film shows whatever your point of view wants it to show. In my view, the right skull blow out is consistent with a "jet effect" of a shot from the front.

Oh so tangible evidence can be denied when it doesnt fit your ct?

Confirmation bias.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Many of the the statements of the quoted doctors had their origins in WC testimony. The WC came to its pre-determined conclusions despite such adverse testimony from the Parkland doctors.

Nope. Still not answering the question. You still wont explain what evidence you have that the quotes are more accurate than those they contradict.

And a statement that starts with the guy telling us what he would have said IF he had been allowed to testify does not come from the WC itself. Dont be silly.

 

[Robert Prey]

Robert has a real problem with the historical record when it clashes with his conspiracy beliefs. There is of course no "routine protocol" to blame lone nuts when a president is assassinated. Investigations are done and blame is assigned to groups or individuals.

The Lincoln assassination was the result of a conspiracy. The 1950 attempt to take the life of Harry Truman by Puerto Rican nationalists was a conspiracy. The historical record and all subsequent investigations gives us no reason to doubt that lone individuals killed presidents James A. Garfield, William McKinley and John F. Kennedy. (And if we don't limit ourselves to presidential assassinations, we can add Huey Long, Harvey Milk, George Moscone, et al to the list of elected officials brought down by lone gunmen.)

The lone gunman is in fact a specter that haunts the American political and social landscape. Witness the recent case of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. A lone gunman killed John Lennon and lone gunmen attempted to kill George Wallace and Ronald Reagan.

And it was not an "excuse" of the Warren Commission that the Kennedy family would not release the JFK autopsy photos and x-rays but a historical fact documented in numerous books and other sources, a fact Robert could have easily discovered for himself if he could tear himself away from the scribblings of his beloved conspiracy authors.

It is also untrue that no one on the Commission looked at the photos or x-rays. Earl Warren and chief counsel J. Lee Rankin were allowed (by Robert Kennedy) to review them.

In any case, this is all academic at this point. The autopsy photos and x-rays have been released and reviewed by several panels of experts who have concluded they are consistent evidence of a head shot to the rear.

But in Robert's conspiracy world, the opinions of these experts must be discarded because of the confused, contradictory and, in some cases, confabulated, "testimony" of the Parkland Hospital witnesses the majority of whom later admitted they were mistaken.

Oh, so now it's "confused, contradictory and confabulated? Excellent. Now name just one example of a doctor's statement that is so "confabulated"

Fact is, the official autopsy photos are still not open to the general public. But what is available to "approved" "experts" is, according to Saundra Kay Spencer, who developed the JFK autopsy photos, not the autopsy photos she developed. Autopsy photographer John Stringer similarly disavowed the supplemental autopsy brain photographs.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/JFK_Assassination

 

[Robert Prey]

Nope. Still not answering the question. You still wont explain what evidence you have that the quotes are more accurate than those they contradict.

And a statement that starts with the guy telling us what he would have said IF he had been allowed to testify does not come from the WC itself. Dont be silly.

The evidence of veracity is the contemporaneous nature of the witnesses and the fact that each and every Parkland witness is corroborated by 19 or 20 others in the same ER room. That is your evidence. Now what evidence do you have that the statements of those from Bethesda or elsewhere are more accurate than those first hand witnesses who were actually a part of the ER scene?