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The Great Internet Conspiracy: Truth Movement Retrospective

But you have no evidence of this. Suppose you debated and coddled him like crazy. Who says he wouldn't get convinced that he was only being patronized, toyed with, and ultimately marginalized by the same conspiracy he already suspects?

You've got an unfalsifiable belief.

With respect to Truthers, who have not killed anyone in the name of their "Cause," we've got a lot more data, and I think I've shown quite adequately how arguing with them has gone nowhere, indeed made things worse.

We don't know, that is why we have the debate. And a report on his mental health coming soon. I believe the will find him to be mentally sane. All I see in him in narcissism, BUT I will respect the findings of the professionals. There is a history of terrorist NOT being sick persons. All they need is a sick ideology. I See a sick ideology inn truthers. The reason might be that I know I would have attacked my government if I though they had killed 3000 from my country. And I have no reason to think I'm sick.
 
Really? Alex Jones advocates assassination of President Obama?

Here's a hint: No he doesn't, and I've made my point. The problem is in your head, friend. I understand -- a great many debunkers have gotten carried away with their own fears. That's the whole point of my final chapter.

So what would you advocate doing about Alex Jones, exactly? I asked once already.

If you say you have an intense urge to see the persons behind NWO hang high. Or that WE will have you hanged in public squares, and then later say Obama is NWO-agent, is that not clear? He formulate it all the time like he whishes them dead, later he then says and gives name to who NWO is. That is clear as day my friend. I don't know what to do with AJ, but had he formulated the things he does about the government in Norway, we would have had him arrested. USA has a lot more freedom in this. A little bit to much!? It gives him a million dollar business to fool people and prompt hate against the government at the democracy.. I can never see something like this happening in norway..
 
Tell me what you would do with Alex Jones. I want to see that you're actually thinking about this.
 
Tell me what you would do with Alex Jones. I want to see that you're actually thinking about this.

I would not do anything. It has gone to fare. Taking him in, would be a big problem now and they know it. It is also possible he has not broken any american laws. For all I know it is ok in US to promote killing of people and hate as long as it is not direct...
 
It is definitely not legal in the USA to advocate killing someone. Casual comments, of course, aren't going to get you locked up, but if Alex Jones did what you think he does, the Secret Service would be all over him.

So you too think we should leave him alone, but only because he's gotten "too big?" That doesn't make any sense. How "big" was Anders Breivik? From what I gather, almost nobody had even heard of the guy.
 
How "big" was Anders Breivik? From what I gather, almost nobody had even heard of the guy.

Pretty much like the thousands of other guys in the states that consider Alex Jones as the medium of the ultimate truth.
Nobody ever hears of them, until one of them goes out on some shooting spree.
 
It is definitely not legal in the USA to advocate killing someone. Casual comments, of course, aren't going to get you locked up, but if Alex Jones did what you think he does, the Secret Service would be all over him.

So you too think we should leave him alone, but only because he's gotten "too big?" That doesn't make any sense. How "big" was Anders Breivik? From what I gather, almost nobody had even heard of the guy.

Well, if you say that a fascist state is ok to attack violently, then you minutels later call the US government for fascist, is that not advocating violence? TO me it is, and my guess it that I'm not unique on this, at that other people see it like me. I don't know of its legal, in US to do this but AJ has a lot of money now and would spend a hell of a lot of money on a fancy loyar. When he don't say it direct, my guess is that it will be extremely hard to convict him in USA. So they don't even try, and they know it will give him all the attention he needs and feed on..
 
Breivik had some fairly idiosyncratic beliefs which set him apart from many on the extreme right. There's simply no way of responding to every kook out there, especially if they hold views that are entirely fringe, and don't bother to try to make their case in a conventional manner.

IIRC, Breivik finished a book and released it just before his rampage; mass murder was therefore used as a publicity tool, rather than being the result of his views being ignored. He hadn't expressed his views in a conventional manner.

The mere fact that Breivik had a book (albeit a very incoherent, copied-and-pasted ramble of a book) makes him more akin to David Ray Griffin than the average YouTube link-spamming teenage Truther.

The USHMM shooter James von Brunn also had a book, the difference was that he'd self-published it some time before; and yet no one, not even in his milieu, really knew about it. His decision to assault the Holocaust Museum was apparently triggered by an entirely external cause, namely problems with social security and/or the tax authorities, which meant his pension was about to be cut. This particular kook had form, having previously been arrested for causing a disturbance in another federal building.

How do you respond to people like these? What possible attention could their beliefs have received that might have deterred them from their actions? From what I understand, Breivik was active online - one of millions who posts on the internet somewhere or other. So was von Brunn, albeit mainly in playpens for people of his own beliefs.

Both held beliefs they surely knew in their heart of hearts were fringe views - and thus, instead of opting for the normal publicity campaign route of promoting their beliefs and converting people to them through quasi-rational means, they opted for terrorism as a short-cut to achieving the publicity they wanted. At which point, the media and the public on the internet quickly worked out both were utter loons.

Two years on from von Brunn's PR stunt, he is seemingly mentioned nowhere on the far right that I can see, certainly not by Holocaust deniers, who ignored the incident from the get-go. Breivik seems to have provoked more conspiracy theories about patsies and false-flag attacks than he has won converts among the audience that might be most sympathetic to his views.

However, both of them articulated at least some views which are shared by wider audiences. Those views are still shut out. Who knows whether there will be further incidents. In Norway, I doubt it. In America, probably, but there have been so many nutters going postal in the US that it'd be hard to tell.

Obviously, the far right milieu is perhaps more likely to produce violence than, say, the black metal scene. But as you should know, living in Norway, the black metal scene has in the distant past indulged in murder. Should we worry about black metal being 'ignored'? Clearly it isn't ignored, black metal bands have been given Grammies in Scandinavia like they were Smarties, but the supposed Satanic 'message' which arguably resulted in several murders in Norway in the early 1990s and in Sweden in 1997 is certainly ignored.

Well, I have not decided if the right thing is to ignore or not. I have to say I don't know, and I'm following the debate in Norway about it. Breivik tried to be a part of a accepted far right party that has around 20 % in elections. His problem was that his view was not respected, not even touched. So he left the party. He then when online, and found his mentors. He was convinced that there was an "coverup" from an elite, not to let the right wing have their say in news paper. The elite had control over the media and he and his fears and beliefs was ignored. He felt he had to do something to wake the people up, and see that there was an marxist "elite" governing Europe and that the muslims had "control" over the elite. Or that the elite had a blind love for muslims.

So we don't have "big" differences in our partys in Norway. I find it big enough but many don't, and can't find a part that is extreme enough for them. They feel ignored, and that the media is paid not to broadcast their beliefs. Pretty much like truthers often feel. So people that has attacked the government because of hate against the government has happened, and they often believe in 911-truth- That makes them truthers, but it does not mean that they did the attack just because of 911, its because off everything the government has done. 911-theories was just the highway in to this sick ideology..
 
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It is definitely not legal in the USA to advocate killing someone. Casual comments, of course, aren't going to get you locked up, but if Alex Jones did what you think he does, the Secret Service would be all over him.

So you too think we should leave him alone, but only because he's gotten "too big?" That doesn't make any sense. How "big" was Anders Breivik? From what I gather, almost nobody had even heard of the guy.

Much as I respect your input, Im not sure you or any others who think that science and facts is going to make a jot of difference to any "truthers" mindset, have the slightest clue what they are dealing with.
 
I can only assume you haven't read my paper...

ETA: That was terse, let me explain. I'm not concerned with convincing Truthers. That's the whole point. Trying to convince them makes it worse, particularly when it gets contentious. I've established a possible mechanism for why this is the case, and made recommendations accordingly. That's what the paper is about.
 
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The mere fact that Breivik had a book (albeit a very incoherent, copied-and-pasted ramble of a book) makes him more akin to David Ray Griffin than the average YouTube link-spamming teenage Truther.

Just a quick response to this point.

This is probably not true. A very large number of Truthers have self-published some sort of volume or claim to preparing such a manuscript. At one point in the history of this forum, dealing with books claims was so routine, it was comical.
Nuclear Bible
9/11 Deceptions
Hiding in Plain Sight
Conscience of a Conspiracy Theorist

It is a routine claim by Truthers to be researching, preparing or have already published some sort of volume, and as such, should be taken seriously as something other than just nuts wondering around the Internet.
 
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In the case of Dr. Greening in specific, he was not a Truther, but he believed in practically every other conspiracy theory under the sun, and at one point got so bellicose that he threatened other JREF members with legal action, at which point he was banned. I think he would have been a distraction from my point.

It seems to me that Frank Greening is just a dedicated contrarian, and feels that no point of view is valid but his own. In that respect he stands out from the normal conspiracy theorist, in that he was every bit as contrary about 9/11 conspiracy theories; after refuting the explosive demolition theory, he then chose to make up his own. I think his aim was to be a distraction from just about any point.

Dave
 
I think you're going to have to explain this one a bit more. It could easily seem rather metaphysical, not ignoring Truthers but ignoring their conspiracy beliefs. It also could be seen as bound up with the elephant in the room, which is internet forum addiction.

On a good day, I think, I can manage what Ryan's advising. All truther beliefs are based on misinformation - a sweeping statement, I know, and one RedIbis is sure to take umbrage over, but sadly it's quite true. The thing that needs to be addressed is the misinformation, not the belief. So forget about arguing whether the Twin Towers were demolished, and focus on describing the simple models that predict their rate of collapse, or the clear indicators of structural deformation prior to initiation; ignore the bad conclusions, but propagate good premises.

And on a bad day, as my post count bears witness, I just give in to my internet forum addiction, and I'm no more use than the worst of the truthers.

Dave
 
On a good day, I think, I can manage what Ryan's advising. All truther beliefs are based on misinformation - a sweeping statement, I know, and one RedIbis is sure to take umbrage over, but sadly it's quite true.

I can take umbrage respectfully if that was ever the tenor of the conversation, but this singular attack on "Truthers," by you and Mackey in particular, smacks more of desperation than any desire to argue from good faith.

The one thing you, Mackey and others of your ilk appear incapable of is admitting that not all explanations were good ones. Remember when you were sure it was diesel that fueled the WTC 7 fires? Why did it take a kooky, HS physics twoof teacher to correct NIST?

I'm not looking to jump back into those discussions, only to point out that if you were to drop the silly categorizing, labeling and pseudo psychoanalysis you might have to argue the strenghs and weaknesses of these official explanations. Something I'm sure not you, Mackey or any of the other leading debunkers wish to do.
 
The one thing you, Mackey and others of your ilk appear incapable of is admitting that not all explanations were good ones. Remember when you were sure it was diesel that fueled the WTC 7 fires?

No, because nobody was sure that this was the case; it was accepted as a provisional conclusion because it was the most likely explanation given the evidence available, but when better evidence became available it was superseded by a better conclusion. This is the way skepticism works, and is supposed to.

Why did it take a kooky, HS physics twoof teacher to correct NIST?

This, more than anything, makes it clear that the validity of evidence is independent of the beliefs of the person presenting it. David Chandler made an observation on the WTC7 collapse which NIST agreed with, so it was incorporated in the final report. At no point, of course, did NIST ever claim that there was not a period of freefall in the WTC7 collapse, so it's quite incorrect to claim that Chandler "correct(ed) NIST".

I'm not looking to jump back into those discussions, only to point out that if you were to drop the silly categorizing, labeling and pseudo psychoanalysis you might have to argue the strenghs and weaknesses of these official explanations.

It is not categorising or labelling, and it most specifically is not pseudo psychoanalysis, to claim that all truther beliefs are based on misinformation. It is simply a statement based on the observation that every belief that the 9/11 attacks were in some way aided or perpetrated by the US government is at its root based on a piece or pieces of information that is or are known to be incorrect. While some people may have entrenched themselves so deeply in a position derived from this misinformation that they are no longer able to recollect that it was the misinformation that led them to this state, it's important for newcomers to correct the misinformation so that they don't end up in the same position.

To put it more simply: However you might protest, you're wrong about 9/11. It's of passing interest, but no more, to look at why you're wrong; it's pointless trying to persuade you that you're wrong; all we can do is try to prevent you making other people go equally wrong.

Dave
 
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That's quite noble of you Dave, but not you, jref or another missive from Mackey is going to ever eliminate the skepticism. Your only successful tactic is lumping a large group of people together and calling them Truthers to make it easier to dismiss their objections. Add to that a very healthy dose of bare assertion and you have the entirety of your output on this forum.
 
I can take umbrage respectfully if that was ever the tenor of the conversation, but this singular attack on "Truthers," by you and Mackey in particular, smacks more of desperation than any desire to argue from good faith.


....There are no more arguments.

Everything truthers think have been proven wrong again and again. All that's left is beating that dead horse.
 
That's quite noble of you Dave, but not you, jref or another missive from Mackey is going to ever eliminate the skepticism.

There's no need to eliminate your denialism; you're irrelevant. You have nothing worthwhile to offer and will have no effect on anything, so the only concern is that you don't pollute the historical record too much.

Dave
 
There's no need to eliminate your denialism; you're irrelevant. You have nothing worthwhile to offer and will have no effect on anything, so the only concern is that you don't pollute the historical record too much.

Dave

Because as we all know, the historical record is being written right here on jref.
 

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