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The Great Internet Conspiracy: Truth Movement Retrospective

I wasn't real clear on your thesis, I suppose. It read to me like a retrospective, although your titled aim was "The Role of Technology and Social Media in the 9/11 Truth Movement". It was from the retrospective angle that it seemed like an omission, especially since it seemed to group discussion into two camps.

The number of genuine fence-sitters about 9/11 can probably be counted on one or two hands.

If Ryan used footnotes, he could insert that sentence somewhere and footnote the names you mentioned. That'd be more or less sufficient to acknowledge the extent to which fence-sitters form part of the wider forum/social media phenomenon.

The telling thing about the fence-sitters is they've either moved on (where is Gregory Urich these days) or got themselves banned just like people from both sides. Frank Greening had a major animus against engineers and suffered from PhD Infallibility Syndrome, from what I recall. He combined making some useful points (which fed into the "debunker" sides's comprehension) with an awful lot of torturous nitpicking and game-playing. The latter side made Greening frequently indistinguishable from a lot of other a-holes on the internet.
 
I have a hard enough time as it is keeping my papers focused.
Maybe this is the main thing. In my opinion, it may have been better to split off the retrospective aspects or tone them down. It could then help to tighten up your thesis and get your point across. Also, the omissions that you saw as necessary could just lead to more questions, as it did.
 
The number of genuine fence-sitters about 9/11 can probably be counted on one or two hands.

If Ryan used footnotes, he could insert that sentence somewhere and footnote the names you mentioned. That'd be more or less sufficient to acknowledge the extent to which fence-sitters form part of the wider forum/social media phenomenon.

The telling thing about the fence-sitters is they've either moved on (where is Gregory Urich these days) or got themselves banned just like people from both sides. Frank Greening had a major animus against engineers and suffered from PhD Infallibility Syndrome, from what I recall. He combined making some useful points (which fed into the "debunker" sides's comprehension) with an awful lot of torturous nitpicking and game-playing. The latter side made Greening frequently indistinguishable from a lot of other a-holes on the internet.

Nick, that helps fill me in a little. I can do my own research after that. I am mainly coming late to this party (looks like at the cleaning up the spilled beer and taking the drunks home) point and so don't know all the personalities that well.
 
Timothy McVeigh was also a psychopath, yes. :boggled:

I'm not aware that any professional body has found Anders Breivik to be otherwise.

There are many, many millions of people who are totally angry at the Government, religions, each other... often based on conspiracy thinking, sometimes not. Very, very few of them decide to start killing each other. So few, in fact, that nuts like McVeigh and Breivik cannot be treated statistically. It's a good thing.

How can you say that when the person with the qualifications to have an opinion on this stated that McVeigh was not mentally sick?NOT mentally sick?

I have tried to scan some articles now, and it looks like it is a broad agreement that we can not look for mental illness to explain terrorists acts. To me it looks like you need to call a terrorist a psychopath, but a terrorist do NOT have to be a psychopath, and I do believe I have most psychiatrist agreeing with me on that..

Why did you say Mcveigh was a psychopath, when the psychiatrist looking in to his mental health don't agree with you?

My point is simple, absolutely NORMAL persons can become a terrorist if he from a young age gets fooled in to a twisted ideology. I do not think Bin Laden, McVeigh, Breivik or that all of the hijackers on 911 have to be psychopaths..

I have to say I really LOVE your work!!! Have not read a lot of this new paper, but I have to be honest and say I do not agree with you on that all terrorists foreign or domestic have to be a psychopath.
 
Maybe this is the main thing. In my opinion, it may have been better to split off the retrospective aspects or tone them down. It could then help to tighten up your thesis and get your point across. Also, the omissions that you saw as necessary could just lead to more questions, as it did.

It's always a judgment call...

In the case of Dr. Greening in specific, he was not a Truther, but he believed in practically every other conspiracy theory under the sun, and at one point got so bellicose that he threatened other JREF members with legal action, at which point he was banned. I think he would have been a distraction from my point.

You can always write your own paper...

I don't mean to be dismissive, but this is all discussion over process rather than content. I don't see anyone having trouble with my claims, except for 911kongen who's trying to apply them elsewhere but I don't think quite grasps what I was getting at.
 
How can you say that when the person with the qualifications to have an opinion on this stated that McVeigh was not mentally sick?NOT mentally sick?

I have tried to scan some articles now, and it looks like it is a broad agreement that we can not look for mental illness to explain terrorists acts. To me it looks like you need to call a terrorist a psychopath, but a terrorist do NOT have to be a psychopath, and I do believe I have most psychiatrist agreeing with me on that..

Why did you say Mcveigh was a psychopath, when the psychiatrist looking in to his mental health don't agree with you?

My point is simple, absolutely NORMAL persons can become a terrorist if he from a young age gets fooled in to a twisted ideology. I do not think Bin Laden, McVeigh, Breivik or that all of the hijackers on 911 have to be psychopaths..

I have to say I really LOVE your work!!! Have not read a lot of this new paper, but I have to be honest and say I do not agree with you on that all terrorists foreign or domestic have to be a psychopath.

Oy vey. After this, I suggest you take this to a new thread.

If I accept your claims, you're telling me that a perfectly rational, sane person who feels politically ignored is expected, even justified, in going on a kill-crazy rampage.

That's nuts.

Re-read my suggestions in Chapter 12. You don't fully understand what I'm saying.
 
Oy vey. After this, I suggest you take this to a new thread.

If I accept your claims, you're telling me that a perfectly rational, sane person who feels politically ignored is expected, even justified, in going on a kill-crazy rampage.

That's nuts.

Re-read my suggestions in Chapter 12. You don't fully understand what I'm saying.

The problem is that a mentally healthy person can loose his rationality, and that without being sick. We often call it brain washed. Like Manson did, and a priest did with his lover in Sweden. Making them kill for him. They have not gotten any mental illness connected to them, BUT the person manipulating them have gotten this.

So my point in that is that I do believe Alex Jones might be mentally sick, BUT he can manipulate mentally healthy persons to do terrorism for him. He just have to get to them when they are desperate, without job and need some one to blame. They can do a terrorist attack, and don't have to be mentally sick. Just brain Washed. If a theory becomes the truth, it gets dangerous, and health persons can do extreme things... If I believed Obama was the leader of an Evil NWO, I would have done everything in my power to assassinate him when he was is Oslo. The problem is that I don't believe this. But did I have a convincing father and friend, they might have convinced me, and I could have been arrested for attempted killing on Obama. But I'm not mentally sick, I have just not been fooled in this twisted ideology. Beeing fooled in to this don't make you mentally sick. But I will read the paper soon! :)
 
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You're really not arguing with my paper, which is about the Truth Movement and other conspiracy theories. You're talking about mass murderers (Manson) and terrorists (McVeigh and Al-Qaeda) -- people who are either criminal or motivated by political strategy. This is why the analogy falls down.

Truthers are not all insane, either. I made that point very clear in my paper.

For someone like Alex Jones, what do you propose, exactly?

Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. It recruits people specifically for the purpose of carrying out acts of terror as part of a disgusting but plausible political strategy.

Alex Jones is not a terrorist organization. He recruits no one and he does not even advocate violence, let alone plan a strategy of violence.

They're not comparable. You have nothing to fear from Truthers. The ones who act on a conspiracy theory message only do so because they, personally, have a mental problem -- and for those, practically anything could set them off.

Don't be so scared of the Truthers. I know they seem dangerous, but history proves otherwise.
 
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You're really not arguing with my paper, which is about the Truth Movement and other conspiracy theories. You're talking about mass murderers (Manson) and terrorists (McVeigh and Al-Qaeda) -- people who are either criminal or motivated by political strategy. This is why the analogy falls down.

Truthers are not all insane, either. I made that point very clear in my paper.

For someone like Alex Jones, what do you propose, exactly?

Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. It recruits people specifically for the purpose of carrying out acts of terror as part of a disgusting but plauisble political strategy.

Alex Jones is not a terrorist organization. He recruits no one and he does not even advocate violence, let alone plan a strategy of violence.

They're not comparable. You have nothing to fear from Truthers. The ones who act on a conspiracy theory message only do so because they, personally, have a mental problem -- and for those, practically anything could set them off.

Don't be so scared of the Truthers. I know they seem dangerous, but history proves otherwise.

Your right, I don't argue the essence of your paper. Sorry about that. But I find it interesting that you want to "ignore" the truthers, and that we in Norway think that ignoring the extreme can make them go out of society and do extreme thing.

You also said Breivik is not like truthers, but why not? Is not the hate against the government the same? I listen to Alex Jones every day, and he do promote violence, he just know how he can express himself without breaking the law.
He can say that we can start to kill the government when they start to kill us. Then 10 minutes later he can have a rampage on that the government is killing us, making us gays, giving us HIV, making concentration camps and planing on killing 90 %of us. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand his agenda! :) :P
 
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Don't be so scared of the Truthers. I know they seem dangerous, but history proves otherwise.

That is an extreme short history, and it is now the movement is getting extreme. The moderate is falling away from the movement, and the extreme is still there. Its going to hell, you just remember that I "warned" you! :)
 
Your right, I don't argue the essence of your paper. Sorry about that. But I find it interesting that you want to "ignore" the truthers, and that we in Norway think that ignoring the extreme can make them go out of society and do extreme thing.

Again, re-read Chapter 12. I don't advocate ignoring them! Last time I'm saying this. I advocate ignoring their conspiracy beliefs, and that's all. You'll note the great deal of attention I give to the problem of confusing conspiracy beliefs with a person's identity.

You also said Breivik is not like truthers, but why not? Is not the hate against the government the same? I listed to Alex Jones every day, and he do promote violence, he just know how he can express himself without breaking the law.

For the third, fourth? time, he's nothing like the Truthers. Truthers get ignored too. They hold club meetings and start newsletters and make websites and hold little rallies and interrupt TV shows and pick fights on the Internet, and generally make a nusiance of themselves. They don't decide to kill dozens of people.

He can say that we can start to kill the government when they start to kill us. Then 10 minutes later he can have a rampage on that the government is killing us, making us gays, giving us HIV, making concentration camps and planing on killing 90 %of us. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand his agenda! :) :P

So what is his agenda, then? What is his political goal?

Not as obvious as you thought, is it?

That is an extreme short history, and it is now the movement is getting extreme. The moderate is falling away from the movement, and the extreme is still there. Its going to hell, you just remember that I "warned" you! :)

Looks like I figured out your position after all. From my paper: "Perhaps, then, the idea that conspiracy theorists are incurable is itself a conspiracy theory. Maybe the notion that they are all hopelessly addled, filled with hatred, only out to make a buck, or dangerous is an unsupportable belief shared by many debunkers. Maybe this is what drives some of us over the edge."

The Truthers aren't getting more extreme and they aren't going to do a thing. I'd be willing to wager on that if you like.
 
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Again, re-read Chapter 12. I don't advocate ignoring them! Last time I'm saying this. I advocate ignoring their conspiracy beliefs, and that's all. You'll note the great deal of attention I give to the problem of confusing conspiracy beliefs with a person's identity.

I think you're going to have to explain this one a bit more. It could easily seem rather metaphysical, not ignoring Truthers but ignoring their conspiracy beliefs. It also could be seen as bound up with the elephant in the room, which is internet forum addiction.
 
Again, re-read Chapter 12. I don't advocate ignoring them! Last time I'm saying this. I advocate ignoring their conspiracy beliefs, and that's all. You'll note the great deal of attention I give to the problem of confusing conspiracy beliefs with a person's identity.


that is my point in using "". Ignoring what they believe in, like we did with Breivik, is what he him self says is the reason. He needed to do something EXTREME so that people would listen to his beliefs. IF we had not ignored him, and debated him he would have had the feeling that people knew about what he believed in, but did not share his belief. That might have had him think twice about his teories? Everybody know about it, but don't believe the same thing as him. Why would he then do the terror plot? He would have no reason.
 
I think you're going to have to explain this one a bit more. It could easily seem rather metaphysical, not ignoring Truthers but ignoring their conspiracy beliefs. It also could be seen as bound up with the elephant in the room, which is internet forum addiction.

Yeah, it's a tough one.

Here's an example. I have quite a few friends who are deeply religious. I am not. We get along just fine. We just don't talk about religion. If they bring up the subject, I don't snap at them and say it's all fake, they've been brainwashed, they're fixated on a book that's been edited for political gain dozens of times in the past two thousand years, etc. Even if they want to know how I feel, I just say it. No need to fight over it.

Most people are fine with that. They have their beliefs, and their beliefs don't threaten me. Most conspiracy theorists are like that too. They write their books and have their conventions, and it's not really a big deal.

Now, you are going to run into people who are more belligerent about it. I get the Jehovah's Witnesses on my doorstep once in a while. I don't waste any time arguing with them. "Not interested," I say. "Shoo." No need to get angry about it.

If those same people showed up on my doorstep with something else, though, say they had some political petition, or their car broke down, I'd be glad to listen or help them out. I'm not denigrating them as people. I'm merely dismissing beliefs that I think are preposterous. Fighting with them isn't going to change their minds, so why bother?

In like fashion, I am no longer threatened by anyone else's 9/11 beliefs. Seriously, I'm not. If you want to believe in nanothermite fairies and remotely piloted aircraft, go right ahead. I'm not interested. It's silly, it'll never amount to anything, it isn't worth my effort to try to convince you otherwise. Would you like to talk about something else? :)

Does that help? It's not an easy face to maintain, I'll grant. But what seems to work for me is, once realizing the Truth Movement is in fact harmless, I really don't care about it anymore. The conversion is a quick one when it happens, just like letting go of a real conspiracy theory. It's pretty similar.
 
The Truthers aren't getting more extreme and they aren't going to do a thing. I'd be willing to wager on that if you like.

Well, what is a truther? Is Alex Jones a truther? Is Jared Loughner a truther?James von Brunn?

A truther in my experience almost never only believes in 911-coverup. They are INFESTED with conspiracy theories. And SPLC was out warning about this and they think what we see now is extremely close to what we had before Oklahoma. As we know Mcveigh was also infested with NWO and conspiracies. If 911 had been done earlier, Mcveigh would believed it was an inside job. Its the same groups with hate gains government and militias.

Truthers have been in 2006, housewifes and things like that, but that is long gone. Now we have the hard core truthers, that are infested with NWO, and extreme hate against government. The forces attacked in oklahoma, and I do believe they will do it again.
 
that is my point in using "". Ignoring what they believe in, like we did with Breivik, is what he him self says is the reason. He needed to do something EXTREME so that people would listen to his beliefs. IF we had not ignored him, and debated him he would have had the feeling that people knew about what he believed in, but did not share his belief. That might have had him think twice about his teories? Everybody know about it, but don't believe the same thing as him. Why would he then do the terror plot? He would have no reason.

But you have no evidence of this. Suppose you debated and coddled him like crazy. Who says he wouldn't get convinced that he was only being patronized, toyed with, and ultimately marginalized by the same conspiracy he already suspects?

You've got an unfalsifiable belief.

With respect to Truthers, who have not killed anyone in the name of their "Cause," we've got a lot more data, and I think I've shown quite adequately how arguing with them has gone nowhere, indeed made things worse.
 
that is my point in using "". Ignoring what they believe in, like we did with Breivik, is what he him self says is the reason. He needed to do something EXTREME so that people would listen to his beliefs. IF we had not ignored him, and debated him he would have had the feeling that people knew about what he believed in, but did not share his belief. That might have had him think twice about his teories? Everybody know about it, but don't believe the same thing as him. Why would he then do the terror plot? He would have no reason.

Breivik had some fairly idiosyncratic beliefs which set him apart from many on the extreme right. There's simply no way of responding to every kook out there, especially if they hold views that are entirely fringe, and don't bother to try to make their case in a conventional manner.

IIRC, Breivik finished a book and released it just before his rampage; mass murder was therefore used as a publicity tool, rather than being the result of his views being ignored. He hadn't expressed his views in a conventional manner.

The mere fact that Breivik had a book (albeit a very incoherent, copied-and-pasted ramble of a book) makes him more akin to David Ray Griffin than the average YouTube link-spamming teenage Truther.

The USHMM shooter James von Brunn also had a book, the difference was that he'd self-published it some time before; and yet no one, not even in his milieu, really knew about it. His decision to assault the Holocaust Museum was apparently triggered by an entirely external cause, namely problems with social security and/or the tax authorities, which meant his pension was about to be cut. This particular kook had form, having previously been arrested for causing a disturbance in another federal building.

How do you respond to people like these? What possible attention could their beliefs have received that might have deterred them from their actions? From what I understand, Breivik was active online - one of millions who posts on the internet somewhere or other. So was von Brunn, albeit mainly in playpens for people of his own beliefs.

Both held beliefs they surely knew in their heart of hearts were fringe views - and thus, instead of opting for the normal publicity campaign route of promoting their beliefs and converting people to them through quasi-rational means, they opted for terrorism as a short-cut to achieving the publicity they wanted. At which point, the media and the public on the internet quickly worked out both were utter loons.

Two years on from von Brunn's PR stunt, he is seemingly mentioned nowhere on the far right that I can see, certainly not by Holocaust deniers, who ignored the incident from the get-go. Breivik seems to have provoked more conspiracy theories about patsies and false-flag attacks than he has won converts among the audience that might be most sympathetic to his views.

However, both of them articulated at least some views which are shared by wider audiences. Those views are still shut out. Who knows whether there will be further incidents. In Norway, I doubt it. In America, probably, but there have been so many nutters going postal in the US that it'd be hard to tell.

Obviously, the far right milieu is perhaps more likely to produce violence than, say, the black metal scene. But as you should know, living in Norway, the black metal scene has in the distant past indulged in murder. Should we worry about black metal being 'ignored'? Clearly it isn't ignored, black metal bands have been given Grammies in Scandinavia like they were Smarties, but the supposed Satanic 'message' which arguably resulted in several murders in Norway in the early 1990s and in Sweden in 1997 is certainly ignored.
 
So what is his agenda, then? What is his political goal?

Not as obvious as you thought, is it?

I find it extremely obvious. Its like saying, I'm not going to hit you if you don't hit me. The 10 minutes later you say, HEY you hit me! Then it is obvious that you want to hit back. He uses this all the time.

Just now he said that he would support violence against the government if it becomes a fascist state. Later he says USA now is a fascist state!!! Ventura did the same yesterday.

I have also heard Aj saying it is hard to say agains people that want to fight the government with violence.People can do it in Libya, why not in america. Well AJ says Obama is worse the Hitler, Mao and Stalin put together, and who don't find it ok to assassinate them? What AJ wants is crystal clear if you listen to him..
 
I find it extremely obvious. Its like saying, I'm not going to hit you if you don't hit me. The 10 minutes later you say, HEY you hit me! Then it is obvious that you want to hit back. He uses this all the time.

Just now he said that he would support violence against the government if it becomes a fascist state. Later he says USA now is a fascist state!!! Ventura did the same yesterday.

I have also heard Aj saying it is hard to say agains people that want to fight the government with violence.People can do it in Libya, why not in america. Well AJ says Obama is worse the Hitler, Mao and Stalin put together, and who don't find it ok to assassinate them? What AJ wants is crystal clear if you listen to him..

Really? Alex Jones advocates assassination of President Obama?

Here's a hint: No he doesn't, and I've made my point. The problem is in your head, friend. I understand -- a great many debunkers have gotten carried away with their own fears. That's the whole point of my final chapter.

So what would you advocate doing about Alex Jones, exactly? I asked once already.
 

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