Evidence that substantiates ANYTHING that happened in the Bible.

[MG1962]

I think you need a certian phone service to get through to Peggy, she's in Russia somewhere. LOL

For those outside the USA Peggy is a bearded Russian male delivering world class customer service

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZXZAlfykpo&feature=relmfu

 

[edge]

"Is there any evidence from other reliable/believable sources that validates the concept of a deity as put forward in the Holy Bible?"

No.

It depends on what you think reliability is, but there are two other
mainstream religions tied to it and you know this already.

 

[edge]

For those outside the USA Peggy is a bearded Russian male delivering world class customer service

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZXZAlfykpo&feature=relmfu

Yep credit card commercial.
Friggen hilarious LOL...
Thanks for that MG.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It depends on what you think reliability is, but there are two other
mainstream religions tied to it and you know this already.

I know you have a point there, and that it will be very funny when you reveal it.

 

[Piggy]

If it was supposed to be the
Reed Sea wouldn’t you think they would have been clear on that?

It's actually "Reed Sea" in the original.

Obvioulsy, the reception of the Law by Moses is central to the early Bible narratives -- probably the most important feature of the ancient Jewish system of law... if it doesn't somehow go back to Moses, it's not really the law.

But if you look at that section of the text, what you find is the interpolation of multiple traditions into a single narrative. And the earliest traditions are so ancient that if there's any historicity to it, there's no way to know what it is or where it is.

Archaeology does not support an exodus from Egypt, but rather conflicts with Egypt in Canaan, so there's actually no reason to go looking for such sites, and even if you did you'd have no way of knowing what to look for or if you found it.

To give you an idea of the kind of redacted text we're looking at here... one which splices together a variety of previous oral narratives... let's look at one example of what God says to Moses, in particular what God says about building an altar for worship.

Here's a very early tradition from the nomadic days, primitive in its vocabulary and syntax and references, and extremely brief (Exodus 20:23-26):

You shall not make gods of silver alongside me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold. You need make for me only an altar of earth and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your offerings of well-being, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you. But if you make for me an altar of stone, do not build it of hewn stones; for if you use a chisel upon it you profane it. You shall not go up by steps to my altar, so that your nakedness may not be exposed on it.

Now here's a much later tradition from the priestly era, which is so long and complicated I can't possibly transcribe it, but you can read it here: Exodus 25-30.

You see, it turns out that God told Moses to do whatever the Hebrews were doing at the time... building altars out of raw rocks right on the ground, or maintaining ornate tabernacles run by priests who led elaborate rituals.

If it's true that Moses was a figure from the nomadic times, before the system of judges, and if it's true that he established the earliest set of codified Hebrew laws -- although even this is simply speculation -- there's no reason for us to look at later myths about him and then try to locate the real-world sites of events in the epic myth.

If Moses did codify the earliest Hebrew law, then doubtlessly there is not a single location where he did that work, and no way to identify the locations where he actually did it.

 

[Piggy]

I agree with you....as long as it is studied from an anthropological point of view and as an artifact...then OK.

Yeah, there's a lot of crank stuff out there, but all we can do is counter it w/ the actual research. Glad to know we're on the same page.

 

[edge]

Piggy says:

Archaeology does not support an exodus from Egypt, but rather conflicts with Egypt in Canaan, so there's actually no reason to go looking for such sites, and even if you did you'd have no way of knowing what to look for or if you found it.

I totally disagree with your statement, it's as if you got the answer that you’re satisfied with and you have settled.
I’m not interested in the priestly side either just whether or not there’s evidence of the Exodus.
We know there was a great deal of cultural laws and rites they kept, plus some from their captors and their religion.
And with this:

It's actually "Reed Sea" in the original.

You haven’t addressed the evidence that’s been presented by the discoverers either.
Here's others that investigated it and a better video:

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=uJumaA0uNzw
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=fiMx8WSh4Es

I believe the translation from the Hebrew first before the Lexicon because as it says Probably from a foreign origin.
There’s that bad influence.

In Hebrew.
http://biblos.com/exodus/15-22.htm


From the Lexicon.
http://biblelexicon.org/exodus/15-22.htm

If you take it from this viewpoint This article was first published in the Spring 2006 issue of Bible and Spade or yours they still could end up at Serabit el-Khadim. From here:
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/pos...ation-of-the-Exodus-Sea-Crossing-Part-II.aspx
Picture of that route below.

Keep in mind that a whole population had to go somewhere and from what I seen so far it is plausible…that is the place.

In conclusion, at no period in Israelite history is there any evidence that yam sûp ever referred to a body of water other than the Red Sea. All occurrences of the term yam sûp fit adequately within either the geographical and historical or the mythological typology developed in this paper. There is no reason whatever to posit the existence of a second yam supß1 In short, the hypothesis that the Israelites experienced deliverance from their Egyptian pursuers at some historical body of water, whose name was dimly but accurately preserved as the "Reed Sea," should be laid to rest forever. Requiescat in pacel

From here. THE REED SEA: REQUIESCAT IN PACE
BERNARD F. BATTO
The University of Dallas, Irving, TX 75061


http://www.wwuheiser.com/Batto.pdf

There’s no way you could drown and die in the Reed sea according to what is known, why didn’t the Pharos’ army dismount and catch them?
All they had to do is go around?

Look at the logistics.
There's a coastal highway that crossed.

Then you have this: flag, Red sea, weed

Probably of Egyptian origin; a reed, especially the papyrus -- flag, Red (sea), weed. Compare Cuwph.

see HEBREW Cuwph


From this page:
http://concordances.org/hebrew/5488.htm

The name of the sea may signify the seasonal blooms of the red-coloured Trichodesmium erythraeum near the water's surface.Op said it wanted evidence here's more:

 

[Leumas]

It's actually "Reed Sea" in the original.

The words translated as Red Sea are Yam Soof (יַם-סוּף)....

Yam = sea.

Now Soof is translated as Red....but see below

The word consistently translated as Reed elsewhere in the Tanakh is the word Kaneh (קָנֶה).

The word translated in the KJV of the Bible as Marshes is Agameem (אֲגַמִּים)....but it is translated in the JPS Tanakh as Castles

Now the words Yam Soof are actually used very consistently whenever there is reference to the Red Sea.

There are many words for Red in the bible but NONE are Soof...e.g. Adummeem (אֲדֻמִּים).

There is ONE place I found in the Tanakh where there is the word SooF (סוּף) used not in reference to the Red Sea.

In Isaiah 19:6 the word is translated as Rushes in the KJV and Flags in the JPS official Tanakh in English.

(KJV) Isaiah 19:6 The canals will stink; he streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and rushes will wither.

(JPS Tanakh)Isaiah 19:6 And the rivers shall become foul; the streams of Egypt shall be minished and dried up; the reeds and flags shall wither.

וְהֶאֶזְנִיחוּ נְהָרוֹת, דָּלְלוּ וְחָרְבוּ יְאֹרֵי מָצוֹר; קָנֶה וָסוּף, קָמֵלוּ


(KJV) Exodus 13:1818 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea.[a] The Israelites went up out of Egypt ready for battle.

(JPS Tanakh)Exodus 13:18 But God led the people about, by the way of the wilderness by the Red Sea; and the children of Israel went up armed out of the land of Egypt.

וַיַּסֵּב אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָעָם דֶּרֶךְ הַמִּדְבָּר, יַם-סוּף; וַחֲמֻשִׁים עָלוּ בְנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל, מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם

So it can be argued that the Red Sea was actually meant to be Sea Of Rushes.

Nevertheless, notice how the JPS Tanakh translates the words as Red Sea (above).

It can be argued of course that the words Yam Soof in fact are just what the Ancient Hebrews called the Red Sea....since the word Red Sea is not an ancient reference to the sea.

Another problem with translating as Sea Of Rushes is that Pharaoh would NOT have drowned in it much less his army....maybe the Chariots may have bogged down....but I am sure the army could have pursued the runaway slaves on foot.

In my opinion the words Yam Soof are just the way the ancient Hebrews referred to the body of water that is now called Red Sea.

Of course the whole thing is a moot point since the whole thing is a MYTH that never occurred.

For the fundamentalist......how do they reconcile:

• Bad translations in the supposed word of god?
• The elimination of the miracle of parting the Red Sea where now it becomes just crossing a swamp?

ETA: In modern Hebrew Soof means END (noun)..... so Yam Soof could have meant the End Sea in ancient Hebrew.....ie the end of the land or the Border Sea??? which for Egypt would be the Red Sea??

 

[Hellbound]

Why wander for 40 years in a desert when the shortest route might be only 2 weeks of foot travel?

Moses lost a contact lens. They were not leaving that desert til he found it.

 

[edge]

The words translated as Red Sea are Yam Soof (יַם-סוּף)....

Yam = sea.

Now Soof is translated as Red....but see below

The word consistently translated as Reed elsewhere in the Tanakh is the word Kaneh (קָנֶה).

The word translated in the KJV of the Bible as Marshes is Agameem (אֲגַמִּים)....but it is translated in the JPS Tanakh as Castles

Now the words Yam Soof are actually used very consistently whenever there is reference to the Red Sea.

There are many words for Red in the bible but NONE are Soof...e.g. Adummeem (אֲדֻמִּים).

There is ONE place I found in the Tanakh where there is the word SooF (סוּף) used not in reference to the Red Sea.

In Isaiah 19:6 the word is translated as Rushes in the KJV and Flags in the JPS official Tanakh in English.




So it can be argued that the Red Sea was actually meant to be Sea Of Rushes.

Nevertheless, notice how the JPS Tanakh translates the words as Red Sea (above).

It can be argued of course that the words Yam Soof in fact are just what the Ancient Hebrews called the Red Sea....since the word Red Sea is not an ancient reference to the sea.

Another problem with translating as Sea Of Rushes is that Pharaoh would NOT have drowned in it much less his army....maybe the Chariots may have bogged down....but I am sure the army could have pursued the runaway slaves on foot.

In my opinion the words Yam Soof are just the way the ancient Hebrews referred to the body of water that is now called Red Sea.

Of course the whole thing is a moot point since the whole thing is a MYTH that never occurred.

For the fundamentalist......how do they reconcile:

• Bad translations in the supposed word of god?
• The elimination of the miracle of parting the Red Sea where now it becomes just crossing a swamp?

ETA: In modern Hebrew Soof means END (noun)..... so Yam Soof could have meant the End Sea in ancient Hebrew.....ie the end of the land or the Border Sea??? which for Egypt would be the Red Sea??

Well I'll be a monkeys uncle... darn good work.
Where they really lost or just hiding out and making more soliders?

 

[Piggy]

I totally disagree with your statement, it's as if you got the answer that you’re satisfied with and you have settled.
I’m not interested in the priestly side either just whether or not there’s evidence of the Exodus.
We know there was a great deal of cultural laws and rites they kept, plus some from their captors and their religion.

If you disagree, then you need to pony up w/ some evidence for the migration itself.

Pointing to similarities won't cut it, because we know that the two cultures co-existed in Canaan.

You also need to explain why the Egyptians, who were fond of bragging about their conquests, never mention this one particular captivity.

 

[Piggy]

The words translated as Red Sea are Yam Soof (יַם-סוּף).... <snip>

Let me check my notes and see if I've got any more detail. I was basing the statement from notes in a class by Ted Lewis. Could very well have overstated the case. Thanks for the info.

 

[Piggy]

There’s no way you could drown and die in the Reed sea according to what is known, why didn’t the Pharos’ army dismount and catch them?

The original epic poem refers to a battle with the Egyptians in which God threw the chariots and riders into the sea. All we know about this battle is that the Hebrews considered themselves victorious.

Later, this event was woven into a larger narrative.

But trying to find evidence of that later narrative is futile.

 

[edge]

If you disagree, then you need to pony up w/ some evidence for the migration itself.

Pointing to similarities won't cut it, because we know that the two cultures co-existed in Canaan.

You also need to explain why the Egyptians, who were fond of bragging about their conquests, never mention this one particular captivity.

It might have to do with the way they would erase all likeness of even the pharos they were in disagreement with, so what about a slave society that kind of walked all over them and the power they wielded.
That’s got to be one great big insult and slap in the face.
Striking them from all of their historical records seems might be the worse thing they could have done, one last stab.
That’s just my opinion.
I also would consider the people that are indigenous to Sadia Arabia and what they have to say about their history.
They would have to be questioned about their linage and history at that area.
Why they think that site it is what it is.
I find the evidence quit compelling but nothing short of professionals going in and recording the digs with regular reports will do, to know and learn with absolute proof.
It should be a crime to with hold history like that.
It seems to me that all the pieces fit nicely on the surface.

 

[Hellbound]

It seems to me that all the pieces fit nicely on the surface.

Wel, yes, and I can complete any puzzle you give me in a day, if you let me make my own pieces.

The problem isn't "does it fit together", because that's true of any decently-written novel (regardless of it's accuracy or relationship to actual events). The question is what is there evidence for.

 

[edge]

Wel, yes, and I can complete any puzzle you give me in a day, if you let me make my own pieces.

The problem isn't "does it fit together", because that's true of any decently-written novel (regardless of it's accuracy or relationship to actual events). The question is what is there evidence for.

Seems like what was written about the event, descriptions of several locations, as the OP asked for evidence, but you'll have to decide for yourself.
I would love to go and see it.

 

[Leumas]

Well I'll be a monkeys uncle... darn good work.

So Edge.....do you now believe in Evolution?

 

[Leumas]

It might have to do with the way they would erase all likeness of even the pharos they were in disagreement with, so what about a slave society that kind of walked all over them and the power they wielded.

How do we know they did this? Think about it.....we KNOW they did this?

We even KNOW who they did it to....we even know WHY they did it?

So in other words their efforts were in vain and not quite successful.

If they were able to destroy the evidence FULLY we would have never known about it.

The fact that we know means that there was enough evidence of them doing it and in some cases we even knew who and why and when.

So why is there no evidence at all...not even evidence of attempting to do it.

Now if you are talking about some rag-tag runaway slaves then the Egyptians would have had no need to record anything.

But....if you are talking about almost three million people leaving Egypt when the whole population of Egypt was about 2 million at its apex of prosperity then SOMETHING would have been weird.

They did not just leave and that was it......they took with them GOLD and silk and wood and kettle and live stock enough to build the Tabernacle and keep burning animals to keep YHWH smelling "sweet smell of burning flesh" for forty years.

Three million people in any place for forty years will leave LOTS and LOTS of bones of themselves and the animals they ate. They would leave lots and lots of debris and remnants.

Can you think of the logistics of making three million people cross a sea?

Can you think of how Moses could have talked to three million people?

Can you think of how much food and water three million people need?

Just the water alone....an average human needs at least 1.5 liters a day to stay hydrated and that is not in a desert.

So that is 4.5 million liters (1 million gallons) of water DAILY in a desert?

Think about the feces and urine of three million people?

This is not a CAMPING trip of your family Edge.

Do you know that if they walked in a file of 5 people in a row walking lockstep like an army then they would measure at least 400 KM (248 miles).

So that is 400 KM long file of 5 people in a row.....248 miles.....

At an average of an army march rate of 50 miles a day it would take the column of these people 5 days just to travel its own length.

What most people who take the Bible at its word do not do is THINK about what it takes to do what it says.

I also would consider the people that are indigenous to Sadia Arabia and what they have to say about their history.They would have to be questioned about their linage and history at that area.
Why they think that site it is what it is.

Why would they know about what happened 3500 years ago more than we do about ours 3500 years ago? Do you know anything about YOUR history of 3500 years ago? How about 1000…. What about 500?

Are you saying they are not prone to FABRICATING myths?

How about Mecca….they say that was built by Abraham and Ishmael? Did that happen? Is Mecca really a Holy Place? Why are you not going there and converting to Islam if that is the case?

I find the evidence quit compelling but nothing short of professionals going in and recording the digs with regular reports will do, to know and learn with absolute proof.
It should be a crime to with hold history like that.
It seems to me that all the pieces fit nicely on the surface.

Did you see the evidence yourself? What evidence? Some guy’s story on the Internet?

Do you remember the Face On Mars fiasco? There are people who till today still believe NASA is hiding the real truth?

There are CTs that say that in Saudi they have also discovered skeletons of the Nephileem (Giants).

So how much B.S. are you willing to “find quite convincing” because you saw some pictures on the Internet of?

Edge….. I have a Gold mine to sell you for only $1000 dollars I will send you all the pictures you need? And when you are happy I will transfer the title deed to you for $1000.00 ….do we have a deal?

 

[edge]

So Edge.....do you now believe in Evolution?

I was wondering what the replies were going to be.
Ya got to meet me half way, Mkay.

 

[edge]

How do we know they did this? Think about it.....we KNOW they did this?

We even KNOW who they did it to....we even know WHY they did it?

So in other words their efforts were in vain and not quite successful.

If they were able to destroy the evidence FULLY we would have never known about it.

The fact that we know means that there was enough evidence of them doing it and in some cases we even knew who and why and when.

So why is there no evidence at all...not even evidence of attempting to do it.

Now if you are talking about some rag-tag runaway slaves then the Egyptians would have had no need to record anything.

But....if you are talking about almost three million people leaving Egypt when the whole population of Egypt was about 2 million at its apex of prosperity then SOMETHING would have been weird.

They did not just leave and that was it......they took with them GOLD and silk and wood and kettle and live stock enough to build the Tabernacle and keep burning animals to keep YHWH smelling "sweet smell of burning flesh" for forty years.

Three million people in any place for forty years will leave LOTS and LOTS of bones of themselves and the animals they ate. They would leave lots and lots of debris and remnants.

Can you think of the logistics of making three million people cross a sea?

Can you think of how Moses could have talked to three million people?

Can you think of how much food and water three million people need?

Just the water alone....an average human needs at least 1.5 liters a day to stay hydrated and that is not in a desert.

So that is 4.5 million liters (1 million gallons) of water DAILY in a desert?

Think about the feces and urine of three million people?

This is not a CAMPING trip of your family Edge.

Do you know that if they walked in a file of 5 people in a row walking lockstep like an army then they would measure at least 400 KM (248 miles).

So that is 400 KM long file of 5 people in a row.....248 miles.....

At an average of an army march rate of 50 miles a day it would take the column of these people 5 days just to travel its own length.

What most people who take the Bible at its word do not do is THINK about what it takes to do what it says.





Why would they know about what happened 3500 years ago more than we do about ours 3500 years ago? Do you know anything about YOUR history of 3500 years ago? How about 1000…. What about 500?

Are you saying they are not prone to FABRICATING myths?

How about Mecca….they say that was built by Abraham and Ishmael? Did that happen? Is Mecca really a Holy Place? Why are you not going there and converting to Islam if that is the case?




Did you see the evidence yourself? What evidence? Some guy’s story on the Internet?

Do you remember the Face On Mars fiasco? There are people who till today still believe NASA is hiding the real truth?

There are CTs that say that in Saudi they have also discovered skeletons of the Nephileem (Giants).

So how much B.S. are you willing to “find quite convincing” because you saw some pictures on the Internet of?

Edge….. I have a Gold mine to sell you for only $1000 dollars I will send you all the pictures you need? And when you are happy I will transfer the title deed to you for $1000.00 ….do we have a deal?

That's not a Krakens skeleton.
Where did you get 3 million from?
I do know about my peoples history, it goes back to 2,000 years or so.

No evidence at all is how it has been till recently.
There are more than one set of people who have recorded this and went there in Saudi to see for themselves.

Edge….. I have a Gold mine to sell you for only $1000 dollars I will send you all the pictures you need? And when you are happy I will transfer the title deed to you for $1000.00 ….do we have a deal?

Send me a copy of the deed and the location which will be on any mining claim.
Well go from there.
All this can be checked because the agencies are willing to let you look at assay reports.
The agencies in Saudi are not cooperating.

You have forgotten everything that happened.
The numbers are not impossible, most would say2.5 million, some suggest way less for the various reasons that you forget about on purpose.