Evidence that substantiates ANYTHING that happened in the Bible.

[Mister Agenda]

Where did you get 3 million from?

The book of Exodus estimates 600,000 men on foot, besides women and children. 2 million is a conservative estimate of the total. The population of Egypt is estimated to have been about 3 million at the time.

 

[Leumas]

Where did you get 3 million from?

You have forgotten everything that happened.
The numbers are not impossible, most would say2.5 million, some suggest way less for the various reasons that you forget about on purpose.

The text says 600,000 of fighting age.

Assuming there are women and children and elderly I estimate 4:1 ratio of none-fighting to fighting thus 3M people altogether.

So IMHO 3M is actually a low estimate.

Nonetheless.... I will not argue with you.... 2.5M is still way too large for the considerations I mentioned that you are not willing to consider and because of which you would like to drive the number down.

ALSO….if they were not 600,000 men then how many were they? And why did God get the count wrong?

I do know about my peoples history, it goes back to 2,000 years or so.

You THINK you know..... Did any of them Cut Cherry Trees..... do you know how much MYTH has been created around someone like George Washington? And he was only 250 years ago? Have you ever heard of King Arthur and Merlin? Were they history? Many English people in the Middle ages thought they were. Do you know who built Stone Henge?

There are more than one set of people who have recorded this and went there in Saudi to see for themselves.

So how does that concord with your next statement just a few line later?

The agencies in Saudi are not cooperating.

How do you know that what these people claim is correct.....are they mainstream Archaeologists or are they grave robbers?

If they have any claim at all they should have written up the stuff in PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.... no?

How did they go to the place? If Saudis prohibit it...how did they manage to arrive there?

Send me a copy of the deed and the location which will be on any mining claim.
Well go from there.
All this can be checked because the agencies are willing to let you look at assay reports.

No... you can only have the photos.....that is all you have to go by....PHOTOS.... why won’t you accept the photos as proof just as you do for the CT you tend to believe by default….. “true until proven false”?

 

[Robrob]

In regards to the numbers departing Egypt, it seems pretty obviously inflated over the generations. Like any fish story, it got better with time.

In the OT, the Jews were a mighty nation, defeating all comers - right up till they were enslaved - then they were a mighty nation again, defeating all comers.

Parallel to the "when I was young I was sooooo good looking" kind of reminiscence.

 

[Piggy]

In regards to the numbers departing Egypt, it seems pretty obviously inflated over the generations. Like any fish story, it got better with time.

Not necessarily.

From the evidence I've seen, the most likely explanation is that the remnants of a whole period of oral literature, from a time when the proto-Hebrews were in conflict with Egyptian forces in Canaan, later got re-imagined and sewn together with other oral traditions within the context of the world in which the editors of the Biblical texts lived.

There were stories of victories over Egyptian forces, Yahweh tossing Pharaoh's armies into the sea (borrowed from earlier mytho-epic poetry), Moses receiving the first laws from God (several versions of that), Jews being taken captive by Egypt, Jews being released from captivity, Jews collaborating with Egypt, Jews being sold into slavery to Egyptians, Jews living as nomads, and so forth, from various times.

At the time the books of Genesis and Exodus were redacted, a master narrative had developed which made sense in their world in which the Egyptians lived in Egypt, not in Canaan. So tales from the nomadic period, including tales of Moses establishing the first law before the period of the judges, get mixed in with tales from the warrior confederation that fought against Egypt and eventually established the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

The result is that Hebrews taken captive by Egyptian forces are re-imagined as Jews enslaved in Egypt itself. Tales of the nomadic period are re-imagined as wandering between Egypt and the time of the judges. A story of victory over the forces of Pharaoh is re-imagined as a battle against the exiting Jews. And so forth.

One example of this re-interpration is passover, which has its roots in a hebrew ritual observed at the time when the herds are calving and certain herbal plants are emerging.

A firstborn lamb or kid would be cooked with the wild herbs, and they'd eat unleavened bread because that's the only kind of bread they made. All the meat had to be eaten by morning, and of course part of it was sacrificed to God first.

So that got rolled in, too. It was re-imagined as symbolic of delivery from Egypt.

It all fit into a big master-narrative by the time these books were redacted.

And when you do the linguistic analysis, together with the timelines we get from archaeology and related sciences, you can see the layers making up this sparrow's nest.

And once you've done that, you understand why going to look for the location of the burning bush is a profoundly misguided quest.

 

[Robrob]

Good post!

 

[Leumas]

Good post!

I second that....especially

"And once you've done that, you understand why going to look for the location of the burning bush is a profoundly misguided quest."​

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So Edge.....do you now believe in Evolution?

If so, he should have properly said, "I'll be a monkey's cousin."

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

In regards to the numbers departing Egypt, it seems pretty obviously inflated over the generations. Like any fish story, it got better with time.

In the OT, the Jews were a mighty nation, defeating all comers - right up till they were enslaved - then they were a mighty nation again, defeating all comers.

Parallel to the "when I was young I was sooooo good looking" kind of reminiscence.

The Egyptians were prodigious record keepers, sometimes literally carved into stone. Strange that both the Exodus and the Great Flood escaped their attention. IIRC the Great Pyramid was built ~ 100 years after the Great Flood, which means the world population had to quadruple every year while the Eygptians created their own splinter culture and grew strong enough to build them while building many, many other buildings and disguising them as ancient structures.

 

[Leumas]

The Egyptians were prodigious record keepers, sometimes literally carved into stone. Strange that both the Exodus and the Great Flood escaped their attention. IIRC the Great Pyramid was built ~ 100 years after the Great Flood, which means the world population had to quadruple every year while the Eygptians created their own splinter culture and grew strong enough to build them while building many, many other buildings and disguising them as ancient structures.

You do not understand.....they had all those Hebrew Slaves to teach them how to do it and also to teach them writing too. And don't forget also to teach them how to save for the hard times.

That was YHWH's plan to allow the Israelites to be enslaved in Egypt after having promised Abraham that they will be his chosen people.

YHWH knew that the chosen people knew better than anyone else in the world how to build pyramids as slaves and thus YHWH had them enslaved so as to give Egypt all those tourist attractions.

Ah...and don't forget all the woo around the pyramids too.

Had it not been for the Hebrews we would not have had pyramids.

The fact that the pyramids were built long before the purported Abraham let alone Joseph ever supposedly existed is a MISTAKE..... I tell you.... a Conspiracy to deny the Bible.

 

[edge]

If so, he should have properly said, "I'll be a monkey's cousin."

Totally re-moved, you never know.

 

[edge]

The text says 600,000 of fighting age.

Assuming there are women and children and elderly I estimate 4:1 ratio of none-fighting to fighting thus 3M people altogether.

So IMHO 3M is actually a low estimate.

Nonetheless.... I will not argue with you.... 2.5M is still way too large for the considerations I mentioned that you are not willing to consider and because of which you would like to drive the number down.

ALSO….if they were not 600,000 men then how many were they? And why did God get the count wrong?

You're leaving out the fact that people were dying along the way of all ages.
You aren't considering the point of the supernatural, and as Piggy said lots of cultural influences in there too.
I don't know how the numbers fluctuated, but at Mt. Sinai a great many were killed as the story goes after building and worshiping a golden idol.
And there is this:

8 and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman, through the body. So the plague on the sons of Israel was checked. 9 Those who died by the plague were 24,000.

from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsalt/Numbers_20_Moses_Striking_the_Rock.htm

1 Then it came about after the plague, that the LORD spoke to Moses and to Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, saying, 2 “Take a census of all the congregation of the sons of Israel from twenty years old and upward, by their fathers’ households, whoever is able to go out to war in Israel.” 3 So Moses and Eleazar the priest spoke with them in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho, saying, 4 “Take a census of the people from twenty years old and upward, as the LORD has commanded Moses.”
Now the sons of Israel who came out of the land of Egypt were:
5 Reuben, Israel’s firstborn, the sons of Reuben: of Hanoch, the family of the Hanochites; of Pallu, the family of the Palluites; 6 of Hezron, the family of the Hezronites; of Carmi, the family of the Carmites. 7 These are the families of the Reubenites, and those who were numbered of them were 43,730. 8 The son of Pallu: Eliab. 9 The sons of Eliab: Nemuel and Dathan and Abiram. These are the Dathan and Abiram who were called by the congregation, who contended against Moses and against Aaron in the company of Korah, when they contended against the LORD, 10 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up along with Korah, when that company died, when the fire devoured 250 men, so that they became a warning. 11 The sons of Korah, however, did not die.



51 These are those who were numbered of the sons of Israel, 601,730.

from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsalt/Numbers_20_Moses_Striking_the_Rock.htm

You THINK you know..... Did any of them Cut Cherry Trees..... do you know how much MYTH has been created around someone like George Washington? And he was only 250 years ago? Have you ever heard of King Arthur and Merlin? Were they history? Many English people in the Middle ages thought they were. Do you know who built Stone Henge?

You ever hear of Dracula?
Why he was at war and with whom?

So how does that concord with your next statement just a few line later?

Watch the videos.

How do you know that what these people claim is correct.....are they mainstream Archaeologists or are they grave robbers?

If they have any claim at all they should have written up the stuff in PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.... no?

How did they go to the place? If Saudis prohibit it...how did they manage to arrive there?

Read the signs on the video.
But No they weren’t there to rob anything since they are Christians.
PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS, I don’t know if they did or if it is acceptable to enter into a forbidden zone in a country without permission and if that would be accepted on Photos movies alone?

No... you can only have the photos.....that is all you have to go by....PHOTOS.... why won’t you accept the photos as proof just as you do for the CT you tend to believe by default….. “true until proven false”?

You mean the OT?
There's no money being exchanged here by talking about this.
Archeologists however confirm at least the sites that have been hidden and now give more creditability to the stories.
Of about 26 sites or so that were described through the exodus only about 6 have been found.
I personally think there was fewer women than you would like to project into those numbers since they were taking them from conquest for the single men in the army for the men because of a lack of them.

The belief of a mining claim and the OT are two entirely different things and one thing has nothing in common with the other.
In business what you are proposing won’t fly, I need an address.
A way to see what you are on about, a way of comparing information.
Verification as we go through this proscess, there is way more to verify in your proposal with less or no information, no geological proof, verses what we are talking about from history.

Cherry tree stories; maybe, but the main theme is there, and that comes in later.

They have given geographic coordinates for their claim and in mining claims sales, so should you, for the location, that’s a start.

 

[Leumas]

You're leaving out the fact that people were dying along the way of all ages.

You aren't considering the point of the supernatural, and as Piggy said lots of cultural influences in there too.

I don't know how the numbers fluctuated, but at Mt. Sinai a great many were killed as the story goes after building and worshiping a golden idol.

And there is this:
from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsalt/Numbers_20_Moses_Striking_the_Rock.htm
from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsalt/Numbers_20_Moses_Striking_the_Rock.htm




You ever hear of Dracula? Why he was at war and with whom?



Watch the videos.

Read the signs on the video.
But No they weren’t there to rob anything since they are Christians.
PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS, I don’t know if they did or if it is acceptable to enter into a forbidden zone in a country without permission and if that would be accepted on Photos movies alone?




You mean the OT?
There's no money being exchanged here by talking about this.
Archeologists however confirm at least the sites that have been hidden and now give more creditability to the stories.
Of about 26 sites or so that were described through the exodus only about 6 have been found.

^{I personally think there was fewer women than you would like to project into those numbers since they were taking them from conquest for the single men in the army for the men because of a lack of them.}
The belief of a mining claim and the OT are two entirely different things and one thing has nothing in common with the other.

In business what you are proposing won’t fly, I need an address.
A way to see what you are on about, a way of comparing information.
Verification as we go through this proscess, there is way more to verify in your proposal with less or no information, no geological proof, verses what we are talking about from history.

Cherry tree stories; maybe, but the main theme is there, and that comes in later.
They have given geographic coordinates for their claim and in mining claims sales, so should you, for the location, that’s a start.

I was going to respond in detail to your statements above.

But on second consideration I realized how FUTILE it is to respond to such illogical statements. So all I can say is:

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You ever hear of Dracula?

Why he was at war and with whom?

Vald the Impaler was at war with Muslim forces, IIRC.

 

[catsmate]

Vald the Impaler was at war with Muslim forces, IIRC.

Well the Ottoman Empire principally but also with some Transylvanian elements linked to his own fractious nobility, especially prior to his involvement with the crusade.

 

[edge]

I was going to respond in detail to your statements above.

But on second consideration I realized how FUTILE it is to respond to such illogical statements. So all I can say is:


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/209954de4ffa543d41.gif[/qimg]

You asked the question how did they get in?
This tells me you either don't want the answer or you haven't watched the original videos I posted.
So talk about irony, and cartoon meters.
You where doing good till then.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well the Ottoman Empire principally but also with some Transylvanian elements linked to his own fractious nobility, especially prior to his involvement with the crusade.

Balkan states fighting each other? Shock and dismay!

 

[edge]

Balkan states fighting each other? Shock and dismay!

What goes on there now is related to what was also going on back then, except all of Europe was in danger of being conquered over and over again, prejudices mostly now.

 

[MathGMih]

Their inability to find something is what they offer as proof. “I can’t find it therefore it does not exit!” “No evidence for the Exodus wanderings!” They only recently found (2002) the “workers’ village” for the pyramids of the Giza Plateau. It is estimated this town housed 20,000 people and was built out of bricks, whereas the children of Israel lived in tents. And this discovery only came after they had searched every inch of the Giza Plateau for the last two hundred years of archaeology. But there is something that has recently come to light on this subject.

The Monastery of St. Paul in the Eastern Desert of Egypt has an interesting tradition about the Exodus of Israel. They say that during the wanderings of Israel that Miriam, the sister of Moses, washed there in a pool of water which they call the "Pool of Miriam". Israel’s next encampment after the Graves of Lust was at Hazeroth (Numbers 33:17), where Miriam was struck with leprosy. It is of interest that this tradition from the Monastery of St. Paul (also from ancient Arab writers) makes no mention of anyone else in the camp of Israel doing this, not even Moses or Joshua or Aaron, but only Miriam, the one person who was struck with leprosy at Hazeroth (Numbers 12:15). And according to the Bible (Leviticus 14:9), she would have been required to wash both her clothes and herself (“Pool of Miriam”) before re-entering the camp.

If this is so then we should find the graves of lust close by which was the encampment just before Hazeroth, and which was the only mass grave recorded during the 40 years of wanderings. About seven miles from the Monastery of St. Paul are 30 catacombs! How did the Israelites die at the encampment of Kibroth-hattaavah “graves of lust,” and Taberah? Both times the “fire” of God burned to death (cremated) multitudes who were there (Numbers 11:1, Psalm 78:20-21). The Egyptians, Arabs and Jews did not cremate; the Romans and Greeks who at one time ruled Egypt and sometimes cremated, had no known towns within 60 miles of these catacombs. The Bedouins call this site Wadi El Khawaja, "Valley of the Foreigner".

It was Sir Wilkinson who found these catacombs and said, “We went into those where the doors were the least obstructed by the sand or decayed rock, and found them to be catacombs; they are well cut, and vary from about eighty to twenty four feet, by five…We sought in vain for inscriptions or hieroglyphics; our curiosity was only rewarded by finding the scattered fragments of vases, bitumen, charcoal, and cloth. It is evident that the bodies were burnt, and the ashes…deposited in the vases, of which innumerable broken remains are seen in every direction; they are earthenware, mostly red, and heart-shaped…” (Sir Wilkinson. Royal Geographical Society, 1832, p.34).

Greeks and Romans did not always cremate, and at no other location in the Eastern Desert have cremated remains been found, even at sites known to have been home to Greeks and Romans! The book “The Red Lands” (2008, about the Eastern Desert of Egypt) said, “Evidence from all eras of antiquity indicates that bodies were inhumed and not cremated.”, also “There would have also been practical reasons for inhuming the dead: the fuel to cremate would have been in very short supply, indeed, in this hyper-arid and relatively treeless region.” (The Red Lands. p. 198) I received a letter (e-mail, Jan 12, 2011) from an archaeologist at the British Museum, in regards to the 30 catacombs, who said, “However, cremation in the Eastern Desert seems to be unknown to archaeologists who work in that region. At present, it seems, the site remains to be explained.”

In Alexandria, Egypt, a catacomb was found for both Greeks and Romans, also with cremated remains. However, their ashes were placed in a different shape of vase than the ones found at this site. They were also painted and many inscribed, not only with the name of the person, but also the date he died. These things: the lack of inscriptions and the plain unpainted vases, point to a mass funeral, as the Graves of Lust witnessed. For had this burial site been used for years, then certainly these vases would have been decorated as were those found at other sites! Israel had the time to make these catacombs as they were at Kibroth-hattaavah for at least 30 days (Numbers 11:20). Normally a catacomb will have only a couple of entrances, and is lengthened as the need for more room is required. But in order to dig out a catacomb, because of the distance between the walls (about six feet), only two or three men at a time could work the front of it. If someone had the manpower and wanted to make many catacombs in a short time (as required for the "graves of lust") he could split the men up into groups, with each group digging out a different catacomb. Here we have 30 entrances for 30 short catacombs, again pointing to them all being made at the same time. The most that the other routes could show you would be a few piles of rocks on the ground.

 

[dafydd]

You ever hear of Dracula?

You ever heard of Bram Stoker?

 

[DOC]

There is no evidence for the miracles but there is evidence for a few events described in the bible...

Actually Jesus' empty tomb shortly after his death as reported by gospel writer Luke (who has been called a first-class historian by Sir William M. Ramsay) is some evidence of a miracle resurrection. It is not proof but it is some historical evidence that a miracle took place.

Also one must consider that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist to the extent it does today without a resurrection since the resurrection is the main focal point of the entire religion. Even the apostle Paul said "If Jesus is not risen, our faith is in vain."

And according to Bart Ehrman we have historical evidence of Jesus' death as early as 32 CE.

Here is what Ehrman (who stated Jesus "certainly existed" on pg. 173) said on page 164 of his new book "Did Jesus exist?":

"And it is important to remember that Jews were saying that Jesus was the crucified messiah in the early 30s. We can date their claims to at least 32 CE, when Paul began persecuting these Jews. In fact, their claims must have originated even earlier. Paul knew Jesus's right-hand man, Peter, and Jesus's brother James. They are evidence that this belief in the crucified messiah goes all the way back to a short time after Jesus's death."

__

So the fact that we have historical evidence of an empty tomb and historical evidence of the historical figure Paul stating without Jesus rising our faith is in vain and the fact that Christianity is the #1 religion in the world today is some evidence that a resurrection took place since it doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist today without a resurrection. This is not proof but it is some historical and logical evidence of a miracle resurrection.